For Side Winder rider's

[Xmrider163]

Just pump your shock up to a higher PSI and get the same effect. It’s definitely noticeable difference trying 5psi increments.

 

[Turblue]

Now i wouldn't be BSing you guy's would i LOL. Yamaha left a lot on the table in the HP and clutching department, without getting into a tuner.
Its all about finding the right combination to unlock it, once you do the Winder is top tier.
Its a great feeling when your sled pull's the way it was intended.
At 60+mph, how is Niner turbo keeping ?

To my knowledge now there are only 3 Winder's on stock tune capable of 60+mph consistently.
I think even the tuned boys are struggling with that.

We need to have a group ride, you guys were in Revy, i live not far from Revy.

I very much appreciate the feed back it help's with tuning when guy's get back to you. Neg or Pos.
The high 5 must of made my day cause i could feel something good all day long happening LOL.

Great job on the clutching info...For me my main goal for this sled is tree riding, steep side hills, controlled accents/descents in the trees. I’m curious what you think these weights will do with the bottom end of the sled ? Does it feel like it wants spin the track instantly. I remember My buddy had Brad story/Val Simmons weights in his apex ....it was awesome racing and climbing hills but in the slow tree meadow areas it would torque the track instantly and he was stuck. Almost like 4 low in a truck. Changed the weights and he was a completely different rider after that.

 

[Trukker]

Trukker you running QSL?

Yes 18 LE QSL . Have 55 psi in front shock on setting 2 and around 165 setting 2 on rear .

 

[skegpro]

Yes 18 LE QSL . Have 55 psi in front shock on setting 2 and around 165 setting 2 on rear .

And does the Lock feature work or does the engine overpower it?

 

[Trukker]

I haven't had to really use the lockout as it doesn't wheelie much more than my XM did . Never been to the point where I've had to back off throttle cause i thought it would come over backwards

 

[Xmrider163]

The lockout does work it makes it incredibly stiff but once enough force not sure the exact number is applied is gives. My 162 will come right over backwards easily if held WOT. I have learned to control front end lift with my right thumb now while climbing.

I have done 55-80psi in the front skid shock and it changes the handling quite a bit. As Lund said the ski’s feel lighter the higher you go. But there is a balance of too much/not enough. Start somewhere and go up/down in 5psi until you find what works for your weight/style.

 

[Turblue]

Was out yesterday cutting big pow and trying out another change i made.
I felt imo that the Winder didn't transfer weight as well as other sleds unless you got on the throttle hard enough and though the steering felt ok, to my standards it still felt heavy. Infact heavier then my modified Nytro and i emphasize modified cause my Nytro never felt heavy.
So after several careful suspension set up attempts i determined that Yamaha had done a poor job with the center spring and it had no to too little adjustment available.
EZsmoke confirmed this when he told me the same with his Winder and recommended a spring swap.

So i picked a heavier center spring matched to my weight and cargo from Zbroz and yesterday was first ride with it.
Immediately the difference was noticed, the handle bar felt so much lighter. I swap sleds with the wife new Cat and the Winder steering was better and easier. I might had to do some changes to the wife Cat now LOL.
When we got out in the deep one of the thing i had noticed about the Winder was at a slow easy take off the sled would break loose and you would feel it back end drop slightly. This was really only noticeable at an easy take off.
Now with the new spring the breaking loose is completely eliminated, i even attempted to make it doit by piling extra snow and packing it pretty good on the front of the sled and see if it would break loose. All it did is push through it with zero slippage(trenching).
If you find your having similar problems with your Winder i highly recommend replacing your center spring, its an easy cheap upgrade. IMO best bang for the buck on a Winder so far.

So with this heavier spring it will take more of the weight off the front and handling will feel better forsure, my only concern is the extra pressure may cause the sled to not “pop” out of the snow as good and trench more due to the attack angle being forced with the heavy spring? Or your not seeing that?

 

[niner]

Great job on the clutching info...For me my main goal for this sled is tree riding, steep side hills, controlled accents/descents in the trees. I’m curious what you think these weights will do with the bottom end of the sled ? Does it feel like it wants spin the track instantly. I remember My buddy had Brad story/Val Simmons weights in his apex ....it was awesome racing and climbing hills but in the slow tree meadow areas it would torque the track instantly and he was stuck. Almost like 4 low in a truck. Changed the weights and he was a completely different rider after that.

Paul and I did some drag racing from a dead stop. When we came back down we noticed his trench was 6” deep and mine was 12”. He had the hole shot on both races. His sled is not trenching. We both have 174 X3 and Baker skids. So I feel it’s safe to say the weights don’t trench.

 

[Lund]

Great job on the clutching info...For me my main goal for this sled is tree riding, steep side hills, controlled accents/descents in the trees. I’m curious what you think these weights will do with the bottom end of the sled ? Does it feel like it wants spin the track instantly. I remember My buddy had Brad story/Val Simmons weights in his apex ....it was awesome racing and climbing hills but in the slow tree meadow areas it would torque the track instantly and he was stuck. Almost like 4 low in a truck. Changed the weights and he was a completely different rider after that.

The weights are not just heavier but the profile is different and that is part of the key here, if you were to just add weight to the stock MTX weight then yes you would see results similar to what your implying.
To answer your question is no, it doesn't trench.
Slow speed maneuvers are super easy in the deep and IMO are better then the stock weights. You can easily crawl around and negotiate around trees, side hill and button hook it with full throttle control, like a tractor. The MTX stock weight will engage at 4100rpm, while these will lower it to 3000rpm. Even with a 3" 174 in over the bumper condition's, the engine shows no sign of loosing torque and spinning out, it just grunts through with no issues, not even a slight slippage of the belt.
Blip the throttle and its instant ski's in the air. Like Niner said, the up shift is very fast and smooth from engagement up, so trenching i haven't had an issue with.
An 800 will trench a lot more then these will, simply because of the lack of engine torque.

 

[Lund]

So with this heavier spring it will take more of the weight off the front and handling will feel better forsure, my only concern is the extra pressure may cause the sled to not “pop” out of the snow as good and trench more due to the attack angle being forced with the heavy spring? Or your not seeing that?

Actually the opposite happen's.
Here is why, popping the ski's and front of the sled out of the snow is all about weight transfer and less to do with attack angles. Though attack angle help, they have a greater effect on keeping a sled moving forward in deep snow then lifting the ski's out.
The attack angle on your sled is predetermined by design....important, keep that in mind for the discussion.
Imagine your sled as having a solid rod and not a shock for a center shock and spring. It would be like a teeter totter. The weight of the rider and torque loads would decide which way the teeter totter would rock. No give at the center would cause the sled to pull and lift on it ski's as the track loads up to go forward causing the rear scissor to fold. This is how lift is done, increase center shock pressure increases lift. Yes attack angle will be steeper but remember what i said above, its predetermined.
Now same thing but this time lets remove the center shock or make it soft. Now the weight is distributed over the entire sled from bumper to bumper. No pivot point or teeter totter. Engine weight completely carried by the ski's and the only way your going to get ski lift is if you can over come the rear wheel's as a pivot point. LOL...your sled is now a trenching snow plow and your going to be wishing for power steering also.
But the good thing here is the attack angle is minimized.

So here is the deal, give your sled all the legs it needs. DONOT suck up the limiter straps, as it will hurt weight transfer. Doing so the weight will push down on the ski's, similar as removing the center shock, no pivot point now.
Set your center shock to match your weight and cargo, this will help weight transfer. A weak center shock spring will not teeter totter and will make your sled trench and snow plow more.

Remember the attack angle, its predetermined, you can never get a steeper angle then what the factory designed, so if your sled works awesome don't worry about it.

 

[Catman10]

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what spring I can order for the centre spring, called my dealer and they have no clue....said they can't find one listed grrrrr.

 

[Xmrider163]

When’s this Sidewinder Group Ride happening, heard rumours and potential. Would be pretty fun for a couple days all sidewinders from Trees, Bowls, Chutes!! I’m home March 14-24th so somewhere in that range would be awesome! Before the snow gets to spring like.

 

[skegpro]

The lockout does work it makes it incredibly stiff but once enough force not sure the exact number is applied is gives. My 162 will come right over backwards easily if held WOT. I have learned to control front end lift with my right thumb now while climbing.

I have done 55-80psi in the front skid shock and it changes the handling quite a bit. As Lund said the ski’s feel lighter the higher you go. But there is a balance of too much/not enough. Start somewhere and go up/down in 5psi until you find what works for your weight/style.

Are you running a full 200 psi in your rear and it still is overpowering it?

I find if your going into climb mode when you lock the rear set the center shock to 1 I find this helps and is in agreement with lunds explanation.

 

[Lund]

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what spring I can order for the centre spring, called my dealer and they have no clue....said they can't find one listed grrrrr.

You need to go here, this is the spring needed, Viper/Sidewinder MTX. Where it specifies weight, add rider weight geared up and cargo weight carried by the sled. Example i had to put 300lbs.
http://zbrozracing.com/center-shock-spring-kit-yamaha-viper-mtx

 

[Turblue]

Actually the opposite happen's.
Here is why, popping the ski's and front of the sled out of the snow is all about weight transfer and less to do with attack angles. Though attack angle help, they have a greater effect on keeping a sled moving forward in deep snow then lifting the ski's out.
The attack angle on your sled is predetermined by design....important, keep that in mind for the discussion.
Imagine your sled as having a solid rod and not a shock for a center shock and spring. It would be like a teeter totter. The weight of the rider and torque loads would decide which way the teeter totter would rock. No give at the center would cause the sled to pull and lift on it ski's as the track loads up to go forward causing the rear scissor to fold. This is how lift is done, increase center shock pressure increases lift. Yes attack angle will be steeper but remember what i said above, its predetermined.
Now same thing but this time lets remove the center shock or make it soft. Now the weight is distributed over the entire sled from bumper to bumper. No pivot point or teeter totter. Engine weight completely carried by the ski's and the only way your going to get ski lift is if you can over come the rear wheel's as a pivot point. LOL...your sled is now a trenching snow plow and your going to be wishing for power steering also.
But the good thing here is the attack angle is minimized.

So here is the deal, give your sled all the legs it needs. DONOT suck up the limiter straps, as it will hurt weight transfer. Doing so the weight will push down on the ski's, similar as removing the center shock, no pivot point now.
Set your center shock to match your weight and cargo, this will help weight transfer. A weak center shock spring will not teeter totter and will make your sled trench and snow plow more.

Remember the attack angle, its predetermined, you can never get a steeper angle then what the factory designed, so if your sled works awesome don't worry about it.

Thanks Lund for the feed back. I guess I was thinking of this wrong. The attack angle by design dictates how the sled pops out of the snow, not so much the spring to a point......With the correct spring pressure the skid will want to stay more parallel with the snow less trenching and easier handling. Less spring pressure or limiter sucked up will cause more trenching due to angle with more ski pressure. Too much spring pressure isn’t any good either. So really having the proper spring rate is key to making it all work for your weight.

Mine is is cranked up all the way. Probably 260 plus cargo rider weight. Probably will try a new spring.

Thanks.

 

[Xmrider163]

Are you running a full 200 psi in your rear and it still is overpowering it?

I find if your going into climb mode when you lock the rear set the center shock to 1 I find this helps and is in agreement with lunds explanation.

No the settings I’m running now are 65psi fronts setting 2 for whooped trail ride in/out and setting 1 in the alpine. Front Skid shock I have it set at 70psi setting 2 and my rear is set at 150psi setting 2. I have it setup for just playing around not climbing only. But plan on trying it back - back on same climb for some proper feedback. And PSI settings for a 230lb rider/gear.

I almost always forget to set the lockout on before climbing anything. But I have put it to the lockout setting and it’s stiff takes 2 guys hanging off of it to move it.

 

[Lund]

Thanks Lund for the feed back. I guess I was thinking of this wrong. The attack angle by design dictates how the sled pops out of the snow, not so much the spring to a point......With the correct spring pressure the skid will want to stay more parallel with the snow less trenching and easier handling. Less spring pressure or limiter sucked up will cause more trenching due to angle with more ski pressure. Too much spring pressure isn’t any good either. So really having the proper spring rate is key to making it all work for your weight.

Mine is is cranked up all the way. Probably 260 plus cargo rider weight. Probably will try a new spring.

Thanks.

Exactly.
Yes too much spring pressure will cause difficult handling and too much weight transfer. This in turn will cause the sled to wheelie a lot easier, even too much.
So you can have your sled come out of the snow real easy with no trenching but it might be a wheelie king on a simple climb because of too much weight transfer. There is a happy medium and personal preference.

 

[Lund]

When’s this Sidewinder Group Ride happening, heard rumours and potential. Would be pretty fun for a couple days all sidewinders from Trees, Bowls, Chutes!! I’m home March 14-24th so somewhere in that range would be awesome! Before the snow gets to spring like.

I'm going to be in Mcbride this weekend, was suppose to be Valemount but changed it. I might be able to get out on the 17th otherwise. The 24th for sure.

 

[Lund]

On this suspension tuning discussion, something to remember is it applies too any sled. Doo, Poo, Cat and Yam.
The manufacture have no idea who will purchase their unit so they use a generic setting. 175-200lbs is what they use for their shock valving and springs. Depending on manufacture.
So that is why most run around maxed out on their spring settings and why some end up with saggy springs.

 

[Lunch_Box]

When’s this Sidewinder Group Ride happening, heard rumours and potential. Would be pretty fun for a couple days all sidewinders from Trees, Bowls, Chutes!! I’m home March 14-24th so somewhere in that range would be awesome! Before the snow gets to spring like.

I get home on the 22nd and will be heading to Valemount from March 23 - April 2.