Sidewinder Effect - where does four stroke go from here?

[Lund]

The one thing you geeks don't realize is a water craft motor has a different bore and stroke in comparison to a snowmobile motor. They don't interchange very well, its been tried.

Just wondering how many of you actually rode and spent time, like a season on a 200+hp sled or a 250hp sled. Be willing to bet not many. Over the years i hear lots of claims but i see more posser's and talker's then riders. The beauty of internet i guess.
Now that Yamaha is offering a turbo setup out of the factory, we will see lots more Yamaha's out there. I'm one to believe the Yamaha of the past were too cost prohibited for most sledder's when you add the weight equation. But being the majority do not have a clue what 250hp feels like it is easy to down play Yamaha's with the weight issue. IMO lame until you actually spent time on one.

 

[Clode]

The one thing you geeks don't realize is a water craft motor has a different bore and stroke in comparison to a snowmobile motor. They don't interchange very well, its been tried.

Just wondering how many of you actually rode and spent time, like a season on a 200+hp sled or a 250hp sled. Be willing to bet not many. Over the years i hear lots of claims but i see more posser's and talker's then riders. The beauty of internet i guess.
Now that Yamaha is offering a turbo setup out of the factory, we will see lots more Yamaha's out there. I'm one to believe the Yamaha of the past were too cost prohibited for most sledder's when you add the weight equation. But being the majority do not have a clue what 250hp feels like it is easy to down play Yamaha's with the weight issue. IMO lame until you actually spent time on one.

and it does take some saddle time to get a handle on these sleds, a five minute blast isn't enough

 

[slededjr]

A good solid day or two on these is what one needs to determine.

 

[bigfish]

I will never tell anyone that it's as light as a 2 stroke & they aren't for everyone,they just wear some people out.
Most days they don't bother me but will admit the odd day I wish I had a 2 stroke.
When comparing weights you guys really should compare a turbo 2 stroke to the yammi then the weights are allot closer. Remember a turbo kit averages 30-35lbs

 

[Clode]

lots of people fight the sled so much and wear themselves out, throttle control is key to reducing effort required on a t4-stroke

 

[FastFarmer]

Right thumb rid'in....that's how you roll on a Turbo 4S!


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[bigfish]

Yes if you have never rode with 250hp you will use to much throttle 90% of the time & wear your arm out real fast.
300+hp & a 174 inch track will scare people so bad they won't get back on the sled lol.

 

[mountianguy]

Lots of the magazines weight with a set amount of fuel like 3 gallons or half a tank. The brands are all weighted the same and they call it a wet weight. I read once they did this to get an average weight as you cant ride full all day. As for the 850 weighting 40 lbs more, it was posted the 850 engine is 13 lbs heavier than the 800 engine and 25 -30 lbs of e start. It adds up quick. The key is they don't handle or ride heavy, when there stuck track length is more of a factor than weight imo.

 

[lilduke]

Lots of the magazines weight with a set amount of fuel like 3 gallons or half a tank. .

Quoted from the snow west article. (they weighed a summit 165 g4 and the Polaris axys 174)

"Weight wise, the Summit tips the scales fully fueled (and full of oil) at 536 pounds and the Polaris weighs out fully fueled and oiled at 535 pounds … again, pretty much even."

Skidoo says the dry weight is 441lbs (for a 165) and a 2016 T3 they claim is 459. So skidoo says they lost some weight and so does Snow West....
An Estart kit weighs 19lbs(shipping weight). If you want to go turn your mountain sled into a touring model I guess the weight could add up though.
I prefer to strip weight off myself.

Not "feeling the weight" is BS. you will most definitely feel an extra 100lbs or even 50lbs on a sled.

You definitely will feel an extra 100hp too though. Having experience with both I know what I prefer to ride on a daily basis.

But 300hp is pretty fun!


Bottom line: Some guys will appreciate the merits of a Sindwinder over a 2 stroke, but I don't expect "the masses" of 2 stroke
riders to be converted to a 4 stroke by this sled.(I think they will convert a few though, great sled)

 

[LBZ]

50 lbs is an easy amount to pick up with just wet snow and is slightly noticeable. And I do notice a difference between a full can on the back and after I ditch it at the fuel drop.

But if I left the parking lot with that extra 50 lbs every day, and rode with it all day with 100 more hp would I notice it? No.

100 lbs probably but if it's balanced well maybe not.

Thing to remember, as last year someone showed on a viper, it's easy and rather inexpensive to drop that 50lbs. That evens the playing field quite a bit. One could argue they could do the same with a 2S but most people don't as the weight and balance is quite manageable. This is the key to a light "feeling" machine imo.

 

[mountianguy]

Quoted from the snow west article. (they weighed a summit 165 g4 and the Polaris axys 174)

"Weight wise, the Summit tips the scales fully fueled (and full of oil) at 536 pounds and the Polaris weighs out fully fueled and oiled at 535 pounds … again, pretty much even."

Skidoo says the dry weight is 441lbs (for a 165) and a 2016 T3 they claim is 459. So skidoo says they lost some weight and so does Snow West....
An Estart kit weighs 19lbs(shipping weight). If you want to go turn your mountain sled into a touring model I guess the weight could add up though.
I prefer to strip weight off myself.

Not "feeling the weight" is BS. you will most definitely feel an extra 100lbs or even 50lbs on a sled.

You definitely will feel an extra 100hp too though. Having experience with both I know what I prefer to ride on a daily basis.

But 300hp is pretty fun!


Bottom line: Some guys will appreciate the merits of a Sindwinder over a 2 stroke, but I don't expect "the masses" of 2 stroke
riders to be converted to a 4 stroke by this sled.(I think they will convert a few though, great sled)

Thanks for the article quotes, I obviously cant explain the weight difference we will have to reweigh one. It is interesting though that no one has posted anything contrary yet.

 

[lilduke]

Thanks for the article quotes, I obviously cant explain the weight difference we will have to reweigh one. It is interesting though that no one has posted anything contrary yet.

Its all good, this thread is about 4 strokes and where they are headed from here.

I don't need to see a 850 on a scale to tell you it is noticeably lighter than the current 4strokes.

If Yamaha came out with a 4 stroke sled with the narrow body like the Axy's and Doo, 180 hp at elevation
and the snow west article was 850 weighs 536, Axys 535 and the new Yamaha Mountain Master Extreme weighs in at 540 wet.

Winner winner chicken dinner, Ill take 2 please

 

[deaner]

Only thing with knocking a cylinder off is it will have to be a high revving motor to produce the power. And it will lack bottom end unless engagement is at a high rpm. Making it hard on belts/clutching.

To be honest what I would like to see is a V block like in a twin motorcycle/ATV. That would allow for a lot narrower body panel, lose the transmission and stick on a CVT like on a sled.

Have a V block two stroke, one large throttle body, direct injection, short vertical air intake up by the gauge, big single pipe. It would open room up to run a water to air cooler with a 12v fan in the front and a bulkhead cooler.

Having an inline motor would mean a narrower bulkhead, allowing for longer control arms, shocks and more travel, making a better ride. Probably raise the centre of gravity a bit but I'm sure there would be over 20lbs weight loss involved having a shorter lighter crank, single throttle body, short air intake.

Then since you have such a narrow bulkhead, you could tighten up the tunnel, justifying a narrower track, losing weight again, shorter shafts even more weight loss. Snowbikes are doing fine. Maybe not as well in the bottomless but it's an option.

The only thing that one would have to have is a vertical steering post, with an extra knuckle giving it a little bit of slop in comparison to the systems most sleds have now. I just kinda rambled away. That's my idea.


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THIS! ^^

This is the next big step in the industry IMHO. A lightweight v twin 2 stroke that is basically a hybrid between a snowbike and a sled. People want snowbikes to have more power, and sleds to weigh less. Imagine a 150hp 350lbs machine with a chassis somewhere between a SB and sled?

Im so tired of hearing the whole "the weight isnt an issue when you have 250hp" line. Why are there so many yamahas for sale? Why do 90% of the for sale ads offer to take a 2 stroke on trade? Its been the same things since they came out. The RX1 with 20lbs boost was the best thing to ever grace our planet. Then the apex comes out and all of a sudden the RX1 guys will admit it was a tank....but the apex chassis is SOOOO different. Then same story with the apex, nytro, and now the cat/yammi chassis. Im sure they are fun sleds for a select few, but it is a niche market.

As far as the whole reliability thing.....alot of guys had to do work to their 4 strokes. Now its a job thats twice as hard/expensive, and not many guys can do themselves. 2 stroke engines are cheap and easy to rebuild, and with the technology out there nowadays guys are getting 8000+ kms out of them no problem. Even if yammi did come out with something smaller and lighter weight I would stay away from it just for this reason. Why buy one when its two stroke counter part is going to be cheaper, simpler, and nearly as reliable.

 

[Got boost want snow]

But again as emission controls demand the four stroke is still easier to clean up. This is the dictating factor in years to come. I have rode 4 stroke since 2003 and yes they are heavier but once you learn to ride with your right thumb instead of your whole body they can put anywhere a 2 stroke can. Totally a different riding style than a 2 stroke.

 

[Longhairfreak]

One thing I know for sure it would take some 4 stroke to follow this sled around. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQSSDCZmHTc

 

[Got boost want snow]

And everything is custom build, trailing arm front suspension (old technology) so huge money spent for a combo of old tech and new. Is that yours LHF ? Nice sled but more into that than what it is really worth as the engine and turbo are the only real good parts. And still a modded 2 stroke longevity has never been good on mods. Stock 2 stroke are getting better!

 

[Longhairfreak]

And everything is custom build, trailing arm front suspension (old technology) so huge money spent for a combo of old tech and new. Is that yours LHF ? Nice sled but more into that than what it is really worth as the engine and turbo are the only real good parts. And still a modded 2 stroke longevity has never been good on mods. Stock 2 stroke are getting better!

How much do you think it would cost you to be able to follow it around for a day?

 

[Got boost want snow]

I follow 2 Stroke turbos with my turbo apex and go places they can't. But let's get this thread back on track. 4 strokes are here to stay so if you don't like them don't ride them. But those of us who do like them will look forward to all the advancement in technology that come with them. Sure has made the 2 stroke technology have to step it up on emissions end of it!

 

[Longhairfreak]

I follow 2 Stroke turbos with my turbo apex and go places they can't. But let's get this thread back on track. 4 strokes are here to stay so if you don't like them don't ride them. But those of us who do like them will look forward to all the advancement in technology that come with them. Sure has made the 2 stroke technology have to step it up on emissions end of it!

I don't worry about emissions. Canada doesn't have an emission problem.

 

[Longhairfreak]

I follow 2 Stroke turbos with my turbo apex and go places they can't. But let's get this thread back on track. 4 strokes are here to stay so if you don't like them don't ride them. But those of us who do like them will look forward to all the advancement in technology that come with them. Sure has made the 2 stroke technology have to step it up on emissions end of it!

Maybe stock 800 turbos.