I agree with Know Your Terrain. I've read avy bulletins for years but just recently started carrying a compass so I know for sure which way slopes are facing. I'm one of those people that can get turned around easily. Others in my group are doing the same thing. Now I point out those slopes noted in the bulletins to my friends. I also try and point out slopes we might drop down that look very close to a slope that was in an avy video (convex, loaded and the right angle). It starts the conversation and makes us think before we just ride over the top.
Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?
- Thread starter Depsnolvr
- Start date
Yup!That would be me.
Ive been called out on this forum in the past and gotten the angry PM's for saying what I thought of some people's choices in regards Avy incidents. Granted I used to be a bit of a prick on here!
Nobody needs to offend people hurting from a loss but at some point and usually sooner than later this community needs to identify what went wrong in each event and highlight it so we can learn from it.... Every solution starts with discussion, unfortunately every Avy involvement will boil down to the human element and a failure in decision making!
I think the people that are questioning training as a solution and citing examples of highly experienced people getting caught are completely uninformed and really need to rethink how counter productive those statement are, many times Avalanche professionals by the nature of there work are put into harms way in an effort to learn and predict factors that make it safer for the rest of us. Secondly their exposure may be a hundred times that of a average backcountry enthusiast.Peopke making those claims really are only proving their lack of training and knowledge on the issue!
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LBZ
Active VIP Member
Hey, go easy on Joel lol.
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broke'n'nuts
Active VIP Member
Big part is learning from the mistakes. Unfortunately all we usually hear is how many and where. The McBride on was terrible (as they all are) but with pics and explanations it clears up lots and you see the area and it starts you thinking "do I ride that stuff" "wow that looks like a spot we were in the other day". No one wants to see a life lost but if we can learn from it it might save someone else. Every workplace incident is brought back for learning and evaluation, SHOWING others what happened would help I think. Maybe that's just me.
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thegeneral
Active VIP Member
Curtis,
This is embarrassing and I acknowledge there is absolutely no excuse for it but...
I have been sledding in your neck of the woods for a long time. My first trip was in 1998, but I have not taken an avy course. When you ask "how do we fix sledding" the only thing I can say is one rider at a time. I will commit to register and take an AST1 course and encourage my riding partners to do so as well. (those that don't already)
This is embarrassing and I acknowledge there is absolutely no excuse for it but...
I have been sledding in your neck of the woods for a long time. My first trip was in 1998, but I have not taken an avy course. When you ask "how do we fix sledding" the only thing I can say is one rider at a time. I will commit to register and take an AST1 course and encourage my riding partners to do so as well. (those that don't already)
I definitely agree with broke. We need to learn from these incidents. Seems people are afraid to post details. We definitely don't need names, but pics, locations, avy conditions and weather at the time of the incident could help people out huge in the types of terrain they travel in and decisions they make. Not everyone has done training so I think this would be a huge benefit especially to those people. Either way I think education and discussion is key to help prevent future incidents.
I suppose this was directed to me.
May have been in one case but unless you were there we wont know. As for the other IMO professional riders should be setting a good example.
As for being uneducated you would be incorrect. The difference is I am using the education I received and making smart choices.
LBZ
Active VIP Member
X2
I wouldn't say I'm an inexperienced rider but the half dozen days a year I get out don't give me the experience that a 40+ day rider has in knowing what terrain to look for as hazardous. I'm not an idiot, but I know I have ridden in slide areas with terrain traps and thought nothing of it until it was pointed out by a more experienced rider. Pictures of these avalanches before and after and a description of the terrain are valuable educational tools IMO.
No disrespect to those lost but maybe one of these would have saved their life. Knowledge is power.
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The very unfortunate reality is that about 15 sledders are killed in avalanches every year in Canada. The safety equipment (digital beacons, airbags) has really improved over the years but this is balanced off (from a risk perspective) with the capability of today's sleds. Sleds can carry riders further into the backcountry than ever before and the impact of poor decisions in this terrain has never been so significant.
jhurkot
Active VIP Member
You can't fix sledding. It's impossible to have 100% safety in a sport that combines machines, weather conditions, obstacles, and human judgement. We can do our best to have the proper training and gear but that is only the first step. That voice in your head or that gut feeling that something is not right is 100 times more important. If you want to live to ride another day you will always listen to that voice and never ignore it. AST1/2 and an ABS bag are for the most part a false sense of security. Those things will not save a person without fear and common sense.
I don't want the government to get involved in the back country because ultimately it is our OWN responsibility. If you expect the government to protect you from yourself then you don't deserve to be out there endangering your own and others lives. Find a sport that is indoors with good lighting and preferably non-contact, like badminton maybe. You'll save a ton of money and the most dangerous part will be driving to the gym.
I don't want the government to get involved in the back country because ultimately it is our OWN responsibility. If you expect the government to protect you from yourself then you don't deserve to be out there endangering your own and others lives. Find a sport that is indoors with good lighting and preferably non-contact, like badminton maybe. You'll save a ton of money and the most dangerous part will be driving to the gym.
rightsideup
Active VIP Member
any term like ''fix sleding'' can be taken out of context but have a discussion on how to improve sledding can lead to good suggestions comming out and people using information to make better choices. Information is key and once people have information they make better choices.
Longhairfreak
Active VIP Member
You cant fix stupid.
Not sure it's been mentioned, but looks at other examples, such as drinking and driving. One example is MADD (mothers against drunk driving), watch their commercials to understand how they get their point across. They show the aftermath of the family coping the problem, trying to connect on a personal level. People here have mentioned this numerous times.
I know when I'm riding I'm not really thinking of my own safety but rather the aftermath of what I would put my family through and it most definitely effects my decision. Honestly I think so much about this that I believe my riding days are getting closer and closer to over...
I know when I'm riding I'm not really thinking of my own safety but rather the aftermath of what I would put my family through and it most definitely effects my decision. Honestly I think so much about this that I believe my riding days are getting closer and closer to over...
Lem Lamb
Active VIP Member
Yesterdays snowmobiling was trying to make it up the trail to the cabin, and if we were lucky we got to spend the day there hanging out, ridding the rolly hills, and not playing on the steep slops since we thought vibration and noise from sleds triggered Avy's.
We were extreme dudes back then with furry gloves and rubber boots, a helmet was a extra thick toke with side flaps and string so we could prevent it from falling off at 38 mpr,,, that was crazy fast.
The main play ground was the rolly hills away from slide areas, 10 to 15 degrees was dam steep, and the odd person would do the 35 degree slopes,,, very hard to do, so one had to turn out with in a few hundred feet to prevent getting stuck.
We would spend the rest of the day chatting about the king of the mountain/ "hill" if I recall, cook hot-dogs while sharing hot-chocolate and roasted marshmallows with those that showed up. Someone always had tools to fix what ever needed fixing, and a burlap- rope was used to pull 1 or 2 broke down sled down the mountain trail to the parking lot.
All the gentlemen would help one another lift each snowmobile into the back of the trucks,,, 2 or 3 sleds side ways with mud flaps hanging out the sides of the truck box. Ha Ha.
There was no messing around back then since we all needed to go to work the next day, and time spent with family and friends was well worth the effort. Folks to day say it was the simple life back then, I can say first hand there was nothing simple since we worked on those units Monday to Friday while holding down a job so we could ride Saturday or Sunday if we were lucky.
A lot of work back then, and those of us extreme dudes would not change one thing less all the hours spent keeping them dammed snowmobiles running.
Some times the simple things in life are looked back at now as the best days ride ever, maybe todays folks have pushed the limits to far and expect that they "need" to push limits beyond their own capabilities !!!
I'm still middle age, and hope to enjoy more of the little things that come along, my pops still remembers those days like they were yesterday. Thanks Mom and Dad for keeping us safe by leading by proper common sense examples so I could share what snowmobiling meant too us back then.
Pal Lem who spends his days quading slow and fishing slower.
We were extreme dudes back then with furry gloves and rubber boots, a helmet was a extra thick toke with side flaps and string so we could prevent it from falling off at 38 mpr,,, that was crazy fast.
The main play ground was the rolly hills away from slide areas, 10 to 15 degrees was dam steep, and the odd person would do the 35 degree slopes,,, very hard to do, so one had to turn out with in a few hundred feet to prevent getting stuck.
We would spend the rest of the day chatting about the king of the mountain/ "hill" if I recall, cook hot-dogs while sharing hot-chocolate and roasted marshmallows with those that showed up. Someone always had tools to fix what ever needed fixing, and a burlap- rope was used to pull 1 or 2 broke down sled down the mountain trail to the parking lot.
All the gentlemen would help one another lift each snowmobile into the back of the trucks,,, 2 or 3 sleds side ways with mud flaps hanging out the sides of the truck box. Ha Ha.
There was no messing around back then since we all needed to go to work the next day, and time spent with family and friends was well worth the effort. Folks to day say it was the simple life back then, I can say first hand there was nothing simple since we worked on those units Monday to Friday while holding down a job so we could ride Saturday or Sunday if we were lucky.
A lot of work back then, and those of us extreme dudes would not change one thing less all the hours spent keeping them dammed snowmobiles running.
Some times the simple things in life are looked back at now as the best days ride ever, maybe todays folks have pushed the limits to far and expect that they "need" to push limits beyond their own capabilities !!!
I'm still middle age, and hope to enjoy more of the little things that come along, my pops still remembers those days like they were yesterday. Thanks Mom and Dad for keeping us safe by leading by proper common sense examples so I could share what snowmobiling meant too us back then.
Pal Lem who spends his days quading slow and fishing slower.
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i am old enough to remember most of the post. Another thing I do remember that has really improved over the years, is the amount of drinking on the hill. I'm not talking about a beer or two. There was a lot of drinking and riding in the old days and I'm sure glad to see most of that left to the hot tubs, bars and hotels these days.
Another thing is the improved use of avy gear - almost everyone is well prepared and this wasn't the case even just a few years ago. Look at how many people have been caught and buried in avalanches just this year. Most of these people are ok today because of training, awareness, digital beacons, good shovels and airbags.
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Lem Lamb
Active VIP Member
There was no drinking in my Dads day since many folks didn't have that kind of money, the Mother would not allow since these were family outings with folks that worked hard for their money.
All us kids shoveled coal and packed wood to heat the homes we lived in, snowmobiles were tools and not toys, truck was meant for short trips sledding and chores around the farm.
The good years farming gave us the chance to live it up since we could afford a good used truck and 2 older used sleds with a ski-doo toboggan in tow for the ladys to ride in on the flat lands.
We would coat hanger weld the skis to patch the holes and weld breaks on the muffle pipe, fencing wire to mend the rips in the tracks to slow down the wear on them. A new track was $100 back then, no one had that kind of money for any-thing like that back then.
We fixed and changed our own second hand tires from the auto wreckers with tire irons, patched tire tubes, wore second hand cloths mended by Mom, and pies and ice-cream were made by hand, same for the butter turn and cream separator.
Raised and grew our lively hood thinking we were rich folks to find out that we were very well off considering that our Nabors needed more help then us, so we helped them out to. "No charge" as they would pitch in when they could during harvest time.
Gramps and Pops did no drinking since family came first back then. If you had money, it went in the coffee can for trips in the fall to big city for the full winter supplies. 2 trips per year was all we could afford.
Best days ever knowing that there was work at 5:30 am till late at night every day. The plan was not to get injured since it would take way from the quality of life that the folks and us kids had to do in order to keep the system going.
This went for play as well, very limited in that category, but we some how pulled it off, $10 for the weekend was living rich my friends.
Pal Lem who spends $27 per day covering 200 kms of truck gas, $7 for days ride on quad, and a $3 bag lunch with all the fixing in-clue-ding my thermoses of hot coffee for the days outings. No drugs or alcohol in my pockets since I put my funds into adventures.
Work hard/ "smart" everyday, and look after the Ma and Pa as they did for us as youngers !!!
All us kids shoveled coal and packed wood to heat the homes we lived in, snowmobiles were tools and not toys, truck was meant for short trips sledding and chores around the farm.
The good years farming gave us the chance to live it up since we could afford a good used truck and 2 older used sleds with a ski-doo toboggan in tow for the ladys to ride in on the flat lands.
We would coat hanger weld the skis to patch the holes and weld breaks on the muffle pipe, fencing wire to mend the rips in the tracks to slow down the wear on them. A new track was $100 back then, no one had that kind of money for any-thing like that back then.
We fixed and changed our own second hand tires from the auto wreckers with tire irons, patched tire tubes, wore second hand cloths mended by Mom, and pies and ice-cream were made by hand, same for the butter turn and cream separator.
Raised and grew our lively hood thinking we were rich folks to find out that we were very well off considering that our Nabors needed more help then us, so we helped them out to. "No charge" as they would pitch in when they could during harvest time.
Gramps and Pops did no drinking since family came first back then. If you had money, it went in the coffee can for trips in the fall to big city for the full winter supplies. 2 trips per year was all we could afford.
Best days ever knowing that there was work at 5:30 am till late at night every day. The plan was not to get injured since it would take way from the quality of life that the folks and us kids had to do in order to keep the system going.
This went for play as well, very limited in that category, but we some how pulled it off, $10 for the weekend was living rich my friends.
Pal Lem who spends $27 per day covering 200 kms of truck gas, $7 for days ride on quad, and a $3 bag lunch with all the fixing in-clue-ding my thermoses of hot coffee for the days outings. No drugs or alcohol in my pockets since I put my funds into adventures.
Work hard/ "smart" everyday, and look after the Ma and Pa as they did for us as youngers !!!
LBZ
Active VIP Member
Your last sentence is lost on so many nowadays. Good post. It's how I was raised and my dad before me and his dad before him.
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Lem Lamb
Active VIP Member
Yuppers, if more took into account the safety of ones self and cut down on the hanky-panky that goes on, there would be much less trouble happening.
We are the kids rased by our parents, then we become the parents to our elders as we take the torch to carry on being the adult they want us to be.
Quality and control of our action at work and play matters,,, in my way of thinking anyways.
Life is really good if we think how lucky we are, and there is nothing wrong by letting the small enjoyments become the thrills of ones life time. Simple and easy stuff when we play, save the challenging stuff for work and other days when its needed.
More wrong then right I guess.
Lucky to be living the dream with a 4 am up and at'er. Ha Ha.
We are the kids rased by our parents, then we become the parents to our elders as we take the torch to carry on being the adult they want us to be.
Quality and control of our action at work and play matters,,, in my way of thinking anyways.
Life is really good if we think how lucky we are, and there is nothing wrong by letting the small enjoyments become the thrills of ones life time. Simple and easy stuff when we play, save the challenging stuff for work and other days when its needed.
More wrong then right I guess.
Lucky to be living the dream with a 4 am up and at'er. Ha Ha.
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rightsideup
Active VIP Member
Yes let's focus on what is relevant now to discuss the issue and yes alcohol and sleding is still an issue I am 55 and made bad decisions on the sleds of the early 80s that could have led to my death. My father rode older slower sleds and would be 86 if was still alive and could have have fatal accidents on 40hp sleds or vehicles and yes he could aford alcohol. Sorry for the rant but keep on track there are people riding the backcountry from age 18 to 65 that are impaired. There are people with out the proper training, improper equipment and other relevant issues that should be discussed. There is though a lot to learned from life experience and I do appreciate the fact that some posters have brought there perspectives into the discussion. It does add value.
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