Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[broke'n'nuts]

All this is usually reported after fact on the CAC site in incidents. You should check it out.

Thanks. Looked on app and didn't see any info or link. Found on main Web site.

If you're reading this it's cause I'm at work and not out sledding

 

[rightsideup]

Observations of pits dug by experienced avalance people like Curtis, Wes Gano or Lund are there for all to view on avalanche.ca I am not sure you can take portions of the avalance.ca map and down load it to your GPS.

 

[pistoncontracting]

I put a post in the Kootenays Conditions under the Elkford conditions about people riding chutes. I can't fix that and seldom try because of the egotistical attitude of the jerks who ride them. Yes, they were untracked and like in the videos it would be an awesome place to climb but I'm betting that those who are climbing them haven't seen the debris piles and the run outs that can come down 4-5 times a year. It will be hard to fix stupid or maybe we can't fix stupid.

Some of their "guides" have almost no time in the hills. The sled guiding industry is a joke.

Interesting similarity here.
I wonder why the Shepards haven't chimed in on the topic yet??

 

[zeke]

There's a lot of discussion and finger pointing at the inexperienced and the cocky and the drunks. But almost every time someone dies in an avalanche you hear how they were "experienced, rode in the mountains all the time, had all the gear and training, knew the area, not careless". My question is. How come none of these experienced mountain riders knew there was a deadly hazard there? I'm sure if they felt they could die if they stayed there, they would have moved or not gone to that spot at all. Did they throw caution to the wind? Or just missed all the signs. If it's the later. Does there have to be more training on "danger signs"? I hope it's not, in one ear and out the other. Got the training lets go riding. (kinda like high school was for me)
I like the idea of signage where a slide has taken a life. It gives me the creeps every time I go past a spot I know. That probably won't work tho. Look how many guys stop in avalanche alley and play. Bottom line. It's a good discussion and the more we talk about it, the more aware we should become. Right?

 

[tex78]

Then just have warning signs on your gps of hills that have slid with the fatalities. They have all the coordinates from S&R. Would be a good reminder of lives lost.

True


But if u have seen my gps, with tracks and spots

It's bad enough trying to figure it out, with out more on it


Mabe good for someone not from the area, but a guide is way way better than some blip on a screen




I still think that they should open up guiding to make it easier for locals to legally do it, where it's not so expensive to Joe blow to get one


I know for a fact, it would help the issues 10 fold, avys, lost, broken down, and hurt in some big way, if there was places guys didn't go

 

[LAC]

I would first like to acknowledge Curtis and the Valemount and Area Recreation Association for all the hard work and effort in promoting and improving awareness of the sport and managing the area so all of us can enjoy it. I have only been riding for about 8 years, but in that time have seen a change in the culture and awareness of riders and the areas that promote riding. Simple things such as the addition of beacon detectors at the trail head, the addition of the training park, smart phone app for Avalanche Canada. There is no one silver bullet or catch all for all riders, and the ideal state is far off, but slowly we are moving closer to ensuring that safety is the 1st consideration when going sledding in the mountains. Think about how long it took for smoking to become socially unacceptable. Any course or activity a sledder takes part in on the topic of safety is worthwhile and helps move the sport forward.

 

[Depsnolvr]

You are getting on the right track here. We do have a new amazing tool for information like this. The Mountain Information Network on Avalanche Canada, it has been mentioned a few times in this post I believe. Unfortunately this extremely valuable tool has seen VERY little uptake from the sledding community.

There is so much value in posting information from your riding experience and this tool is extremely simple yet can provide some amazing information to the recreating public should we get the buy in we were hoping for.

Something I found really helpful... they included pictures of the site of the Crowfoot incident. I rode that area for 3 days before the incident. The pictures will help confirm that you made good decisions and didn't go near that type of terrain or you look at them and realize you probably would have rode the same and got lucky. I was wondering if this happened where I had ridden and was I just lucky. I Thoth it was helpful when people posted maps, google earth images and photos of previous incidents. You see the bigger picture that you might miss while on the sled.


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[Depsnolvr]

$400 per person...wow! Don't up your certification or training dude, your pay rate will fall way down....

When you go Heli Skiing, you go with a Guide that knows what they are doing. Pay me 400$ a day(per person) and Ill make sure you live through the day. I have more than 1000 days in the backcountry.

 

[deaner]

You are getting on the right track here. We do have a new amazing tool for information like this. The Mountain Information Network on Avalanche Canada, it has been mentioned a few times in this post I believe. Unfortunately this extremely valuable tool has seen VERY little uptake from the sledding community.

There is so much value in posting information from your riding experience and this tool is extremely simple yet can provide some amazing information to the recreating public should we get the buy in we were hoping for.

That is an amazing tool. It really does open your eyes when you see the type of stuff that can kill people. There are some avys that you look at the photos and think what the heck were you doing there when conditions were so high! But then some really surprise you.

Just read the report and looked at the pictures of where Dan was killed. Maybe the pictures dont do it justice......but to me it doesnt seem like that dangerous of an area. I know I am definitely going to learn from it though.

 

[pistoncontracting]

Avalanche Canada

I’m thinking a lot about avalanche fatalities these days and I really start worrying when I hear sledders talking about “closing the backcountry” or suggesting forecasters should “crank up danger ratings” to scare people away. To be honest, I’m quite literally losing sleep over this.Four deaths in two days, five in a little over a week. Twelve of the 13 deaths this winter are sledders. The one exception, a backcountry skier, was under the care of a professional ACMG guide.

What do the numbers mean?
The first thing that comes to mind is that 13 people didn’t come home from what was supposed to be a fun day in the mountains. No one plans to die in an avalanche today. Many families and friends suffer the loss and now wake up with someone missing in their lives. This isn’t about numbers, statistics and trends; it’s about real people dying.
Second, don’t lose sight of the challenges and successes hidden behind the numbers. Mountain sledders are the largest user group recreating in avalanche terrain, and likely the fastest growing. The grim reality is that mountain sledders will make up a large part of the fatality statistics, but they shouldn’t be all of them.
Still, why so many sledder fatalities?
Mountain sledders face different and bigger challenges than backcountry skiers. A fit ski-tourer might travel 10 or 20 km in a day while a proficient sledder can cover ten times that distance. That means increased exposure to avalanche hazard and many more decisions in a day.
A ski-tourer will take hours to gain access to a downhill run which gives them a lot of time to think. Moreover, they usually only get a couple of cycles a day. Here’s where it gets interesting: a sledder can ascend a 1000m slope in under a minute. In that hot minute they need to continually re-evaluate their initial assessment and figure out what’s next. A mountain sledder may make 100 snow and terrain decisions compared with the skiers two or three. It’s not just more decisions, they need to happen MUCH faster. Rapid decision-making requires a high degree of skill and experience to do well.
You can’t rely on luck in avalanche terrain, at least not over the long-haul. It’s important to recognize that many good-decisions are made every day by mountain sledders. It’s also super cool to see that the number of riders with solid avalanche skills is higher today than any time in the past.
But avalanche fatalities this winter also paint a bleak picture. Two of the deceased were travelling solo—a decision that raises the stakes (risk) substantially. One of the deceased did not have a functioning transceiver—the equivalent of a seatbelt in a truck or PFD in a boat. Several of the fatal avalanches, not to mention near-misses, involved large groups exposed to the hazard at once—an issue that reflects poorly on both the backcountry skiing and mountain sledding communities.
Nobody’s perfect, but we need to try!
Mountain sledding is not simply the winter counterpart to dirt-biking or riding a quad. Avalanches are an inherent part of the sport. Avy Pros talk about working in a wicked environment, meaning we deal with confusing and noisy data, need to manage large amounts of uncertainty, and we get lousy feedback. That means we never know if our decisions are good or merely lucky. We only know for sure we made a wrong decision when the snow starts sliding under our feet.
And then there’s the consequences! Because we are absolutely playing for keeps, travelling in avalanche terrain requires near-perfect decision-making. Don’t fool yourself, you’ve picked a difficult sport; mountain sledding is a challenging undertaking. Remember what I said about sledders needing to make many, fast-paced decisions?Done well, mountain sledding requires advanced avalanche skills compared to backcountry skiing.
Too many sledders figure a weekend avalanche course is all they really need. They figure they’ve checked the “Avy Training” box, gotten the ticket (my wife is happy), and are now shred ready!
I don’t know a sledder who doesn’t want to upgrade their (lighter, more powerful, easier handling sled), watch vids (with an eye to how the pros pull of those rad lines), or practice new moves. IMHO mountain sledding is a sport that deserves similar ongoing avalanche skill development. For serious mountain sledders, working to improve your avalanche skills should be no different than improving your riding skills; together they enable you to do the sport well.

Who’s with me on this?
I bet Nadine Overwater is! She sees problems and calls out for change. Check out her excellent article “The Avalanche Safety Disconnect” in Mountain Sledder
The Avalanche Safety DisconnectMountain Sledder Magazine
Curtis Pawliuk is! He recently posted a shout-out for change.
https://www.facebook.com/frozenpiratesnowservices/posts/989430937804406
I haven’t actually asked, but I’d hazard to guess Jeremy Hanke is. Jeremy thinks hopping on a mountain sled without mountain sense is kinda like hopping into a Ferrari without any coaching.
So what do we do?
Hmmm, I suddenly feel eyes staring, glaring, and even a few welcoming faces anticipating wise words from Mr. Avalanche Canada Forecaster. Yes, we issue Avalanche Forecasts daily and they’re good. The MIN is a new exchange of current, local conditions. We have trip planners and ATES ratings, we have weather forecasts and evening outreach, we have AST training, and I could go on. But if you really want to know what I think, it’s that the solutions you want simply don’t exist. Sledders—the creative insight individuals and the community at large—are going to have to do some inventing and need to figure out some new ways of doing things. Nadine, Curtis, Jeremy: cultural changes need to come from within the community. But remember that I, and my buddies here at AvCan, are here to help however we can!

I see strong parallels between mountain sledding today and heli-skiing in the 70’s and 80s. Back then, a bunch of mountain guides who gained all their experience ski-touring were suddenly flying around with 1900 horsepower at crazy fast speeds travelling through hundreds of square kilometres in a day. Sound like something you do? Heli-ski guides have figured out a lot of stuff over the years, coming up with safety systems and procedures that work. They’re now masters at selecting terrain to match the conditions and are pros and moving groups moving through that terrain. They’ve made flying around in a helicopter with 4, 6, or even 11 guests a reasonable and safe way to enjoy the mountains. In many ways, these are the challenges sledders are facing today. Heli-ski guides and the companies they worked for took a hard look at themselves, reflecting on how they operated, where they fell short, what they could do to be better. The change came from within and new ways of doing things were invented.
Mountain sledders, need to realize that the sport they’ve chosen is incredibly challenging; in many ways, the riding is the easy part. Some mornings I shuffle away from the truck with skins on my boards, some mornings I jump into a heli, and some mornings I warm up a two-stroke. I know one thing, on those days when I straddle a sled to head for the hills, I’m especially grateful for ALL the avalanche skills I’ve gained over the years.

 

[lilduke]

$400 per person...wow! Don't up your certification or training dude, your pay rate will fall way down....

Haha probably a lil high, but I was comparing to heli ski guides, they make pretty good dough.

And sled guides, not so much. Unless you have ur own operation.

Tough way to make a living.

 

[Lund]

There's a lot of discussion and finger pointing at the inexperienced and the cocky and the drunks. But almost every time someone dies in an avalanche you hear how they were "experienced, rode in the mountains all the time, had all the gear and training, knew the area, not careless". My question is. How come none of these experienced mountain riders knew there was a deadly hazard there? I'm sure if they felt they could die if they stayed there, they would have moved or not gone to that spot at all. Did they throw caution to the wind? Or just missed all the signs. If it's the later. Does there have to be more training on "danger signs"? I hope it's not, in one ear and out the other. Got the training lets go riding. (kinda like high school was for me)
I like the idea of signage where a slide has taken a life. It gives me the creeps every time I go past a spot I know. That probably won't work tho. Look how many guys stop in avalanche alley and play. Bottom line. It's a good discussion and the more we talk about it, the more aware we should become. Right?

Its called being complacent. It happen's to everyone no matter how well trained or experienced you are. I have personally been there and have been reminded by my partner...wife, avid sledder.
You become too comfortable and let your guards down, unfortunately mother nature as beautiful and alluring and fascinating as she is.....she can be a deadly bitch at the most unexpected times. You can do something 100 times over thinking it is safe, then on the 101 time she'll kill ya.
You see we as human's play by rules and we study things so we can understand them better so we can set rules for our advantage. Mother nature and her mountains are kinda twisted....she really has no rules other then you better be paying attention.
So ya, NO ONE is immune

 

[Highfly]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/8122369249/

Will need Facebook to view, not sure if it can be posted any other way...

 

[mtacres]

I know the over whelming majority of long time sledders have no avalanche training. "They have years of mountain sledding experienced they don't need avalanche training" Hey guess who is teaching their kids. I don't give a sh!t how many years you have ridden in the mountains. The game changed ten years ago. Its simple if you are not taking reoccurring avalanche training your unnecessarily risking your life. More importantly you are risking the lives of the people you ride with. Here are my ideas on "Fixing Sledding" 1) Snowmobile clubs raise trail fees and membership's and give discounts to AST1 and AST2 holders or rebates who complete training 2) Snowmobile clubs wave all trail fees for students in AST training 3) Manufactures offer rebates/discounts on sleds intended for mountain riding to AST1/2 holders. 4) Avalanche Canada does an amazing job with the funds they have, but they are under funded. All user groups need to contribute more and canvas Ottawa for more funding. Maybe now is a good time to lobby. Our Prime Minster lost his brother to a avalanche. Pubic awareness is important. Imaging a mother watching TV and is told her husband is risking the lives of here kids every time he takes them sledding. See how that works out for him.

I like this idea a lot. Like insurance companies do with driver training courses.
Raise the prices/big enough discounts that people are really enticed to take a course. If mountain riding, it won't cost you any more than it already does except for the training cost.

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[pistoncontracting]

Really, this is is the best idea? Honestly, I don't know what people are thinking some times.
What world do you people live in?

The back country is a big place. Many people don't just ride from the big trail heads.
Forcing people to buy things, won't fix it.

The last slide on the news should illustrate again, it's not the lack of education that is killing people. It's not the lack of equipment. It's not the lack of experience.

You guys need to stop making decisions based on emotion.

Why can't anyone accept that we are getting better. We are safer. Look at the volume of people out there, vs the negative that's happening. Traffic out west this year is at all time highes. I'll bet anyone right now, that next winter won't see near as many casualties (as long as guys are back to work).

Petty crime is even on the rise right now. Is that to say that are positive trends in the last 20 years mean nothing? No, it's simply a small screen shot, tied directly to people having more spare time.

The numbers don't lie. We are getting better. We are fixing snowmobiling.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. We are getting safer. Better technology, better training. But why do you think we got better? Because of incidents like these. Losing friends and family. Can we fix the problem? Doubt it. Can we make more people aware? Make them think more of the choices they make or terrain they ride? For sure. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to make more people aware of the risks of the sport to make them have better decisions, whatever your experience level, or whether you ride from the trail head or the back way to your best spot there is room to learn. We got safer by learning from our mistakes, or in these cases other people's mistakes. Son we need to overhaul the system, no. Do we need to keep learning? Always

Really, this is is the best idea? Honestly, I don't know what people are thinking some times.
What world do you people live in?

The back country is a big place. Many people don't just ride from the big trail heads.
Forcing people to buy things, won't fix it.

The last slide on the news should illustrate again, it's not the lack of education that is killing people. It's not the lack of equipment. It's not the lack of experience.

You guys need to stop making decisions based on emotion.

Why can't anyone except that we are getting better. We are safer. Look at the volume of people out there, vs the negative that's happening. Traffic out west this year is at all time highes. I'll bet anyone right now, that next winter won't see near as many casualties (as long as guys are back to work).

Petty crime is even on the rise right now. Is that to say that are positive trends in the last 20 years mean nothing? No, it's simply a small screen shot, tied directly to people having more spare time.

The numbers don't lie. We are getting better. We are fixing snowmobiling.

If you're reading this it's cause I'm at work and not out sledding

 

[pistoncontracting]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. We are getting safer. Better technology, better training. But why do you think we got better? Because of incidents like these. Losing friends and family. Can we fix the problem? Doubt it. Can we make more people aware? Make them think more of the choices they make or terrain they ride? For sure. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to make more people aware of the risks of the sport to make them have better decisions, whatever your experience level, or whether you ride from the trail head or the back way to your best spot there is room to learn. We got safer by learning from our mistakes, or in these cases other people's mistakes. Son we need to overhaul the system, no. Do we need to keep learning? Always

Learning from mistakes is one thing. Forcing people to purchase thousands of dollars in gear, and hundreds of hours in courses is another. Especially when it's rarely ever the newbies that seem to make the news.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

Learning from mistakes is one thing. Forcing people to purchase thousands of dollars in gear, and hundreds of hours in courses is another. Especially when it's rarely ever the newbies that seem to make the news.

True, but as a newbie I had problems getting 2k past the cabin in fresh pow lol. And your right. It is the experienced, older guys, who generally aren't show boats getting caught. But that being said it's a trend. Wrong place, wrong time for sure. But as our riding skills got better did our terrain reading? I can ride waaaaaayyyy better now than when I first started. But I'm still only a Ast1. My riding is better but I'll be the first to admit my avy knowledge hasn't advanced with it. This yr has made me realize I have to fix that. And I think that's where this thread is going, how to make us ALL more aware, and ways to get people to be more aware. We need to better ourselves cause at the end of the day that's the only thing we control.

If you're reading this it's cause I'm at work and not out sledding

 

[rightsideup]

frankly guys and gals we cannot categorize the people involved in fatalities in the bc or mountains of Alberta as to what experience level they have.
There are many factors contributing to fatalities some people average 10000km a year and ride alone.....bad thing to do It can and did catch up to this type of rider
Too much alcohol or other substances consumed in the back country of bc or the prairies of Saskatchewan.... bad thing to do
No avalanche training yet you have 100 plus days riding in the back country of bc.......Sorry still bad on you for not being trained some day it will catch up to you

 

[Modman]

When you go Heli Skiing, you go with a Guide that knows what they are doing. Pay me 400$ a day(per person) and Ill make sure you live through the day. I have more than 1000 days in the backcountry.

I have mad respect for you, but I've got to say, I lose a little bit every time I hear anyone say "I've got ____ ".

1000 days.... it seems very cavalier of you to say that - guess how many seasons Davidoff had under his belt? He probably had a whole season worth of days just where he died, in fact, I can probably almost guarantee he did because I saw him up there a lot. He was riding alone.....sound familiar?

Nothing else to say that I didn't already say earlier. Ride safe out there guys.