Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[maxwell]

Craig Kelly was a guide and had years of experience in the back country snowboarding. He died in an avalanche near Revelstoke in 2003 along with 6 others.

Don't matter if you are using a motor or not. The risk is always there. Mitigate it and make good choices and with luck you may never see an avalanche no matter how many days you ride.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

Yup key word mitigate. It's hard to pass by those untracked slopes especially when an area is pounded out. But there's a reason for it. Move on past and keep searching

 

[TimG]

When you go Heli Skiing, you go with a Guide that knows what they are doing. Pay me 400$ a day(per person) and Ill make sure you live through the day. I have more than 1000 days in the backcountry.

That's what I mean. If every mtn. rider knew what the guides know, we'd be in pretty good shape.

 

[dogsmack]

Huge thread to catch up on but a good discussion. The answer to a fix is, better luck solving the riddles of the cosmos I think. We were on the hill for one of these of events on the weekend. What I learned of the events that lead to the fatality was shocking. Details I am not getting into.

The booze and drugs need to stay off the hill full stop. Another problem is iconic status from one's peers. We live in a world of one up manship instead of a world where it is simply cool to love a sport and enjoying it smart.

I closed up the sled trailer after cleaning and storage prep wondering is it worth it.

 

[ferniesnow]

Yup key word mitigate. It's hard to pass by those untracked slopes especially when an area is pounded out. But there's a reason for it. Move on past and keep searching

The weekend warrior can be a major problem. Holidays/time off booked and no matter what the conditions are like, "we are going sledding!" We see this day in and day out.

If you ride 50+ (I just picked a number out of the air to put local snowpack knowledge into perspective) days a winter in a local area, you get to know the snow and what is happening within the snow pack. You also more than likely know a history of the area and what tends to slide and what is pretty stable. If you are a rider who rides different areas every chance you get, how do you know the local conditions? Sure, you have the bulletin from Avalanche Canada but that is a generalization of a large area. Like Maxwell said, the untracked areas are generally untracked for a reason or at least for a reason in a reasonable person's mind. It was said above about riding manageable slopes if an avi did happen; is it small enough to get your buddy out without any serious consequences? That is what I see a lot of people aren't thinking about. They don't look at or can't see (visibility sucks and the weekend warrior is at a distinct disadvantage because they aren't familiar with the cornices and higher loading) the big picture. The big slopes have huge consequences if they do slide and we have seen that too many times. The weak spots on a slope (rocks and buried trees where the frost penetrates) and the problem of propagation and remote triggering are not fully understood by many.

Many of the untracked areas are unsafe and many of them (drainages and gullies) lead to dangerous situations and most of the locals have learned that through experience. Ego and testosterone are getting in the way of thinking and common sense. How is that fixable? Personally, all the education in the world won't fix it. It will help it but it won't fix it! Large groups of riders, IMHO, are the worst to get the grasp of the consequences. The "one-up-man-ship" scenario plays a big role. In a group of riders, there are always dynamics that are working behind the scenes (jealousy, doubt, I'll show him a thing or two, he is being too cautious, I've done this lots of times, two weeks ago this was fine, etc., etc..) interfering with sound group decisions. The larger the group, the tougher it is to get consensus and get a sincere consensus.

I put a post in the Kootenays Conditions under the Elkford conditions about people riding chutes. I can't fix that and seldom try because of the egotistical attitude of the jerks who ride them. Yes, they were untracked and like in the videos it would be an awesome place to climb but I'm betting that those who are climbing them haven't seen the debris piles and the run outs that can come down 4-5 times a year. It will be hard to fix stupid or maybe we can't fix stupid.

A great thread and a great discussion. Thanks for all the thoughts and positive comments.

 

[Lund]

When you go Heli Skiing, you go with a Guide that knows what they are doing. Pay me 400$ a day(per person) and Ill make sure you live through the day. I have more than 1000 days in the backcountry.

I have guided for ZERO $ a day, my point, the money should have little to do in making sure as a guide that the people are safe, you doit cause you love it. Does that mean if you got little pay the people you guided would be less safe?
From 2009 to 2014 i voluntarily guided 20-25 rider's from the DOOTALK forum for 3 day's. One weekend a season, people had to apply for this ride but it was FREE, i never asked for anything in return. What i got out of it.....met some awesome people that i still as of today keep in touch with and occasionally still ride with, many of them are on this forum.
In 2010..i think it was 2010, the year of the big avalanche at the BIS in Revy, the guided Dootalk ride included one day at Boulder. The same day the avalanche occurred. The day before, i got the Dootalk group together and cancelled the ride in Revy and put it on in Sicamous instead. WHY, because of the avalanche dangers in the Revy area, is it because i can fore tell the future LOL. Its understanding condition's through years of being in it, i was responsible for people lifes. How interesting that many choose to ignore the signs that day or most likely had no clue of the condition's. Even people with so called EXPERIENCE that should had known better.

 

[tex78]

I have guided for ZERO $ a day, my point, the money should have little to do in making sure as a guide that the people are safe, you doit cause you love it. Does that mean if you got little pay the people you guided would be less safe?
From 2009 to 2014 i voluntarily guided 20-25 rider's from the DOOTALK forum for 3 day's. One weekend a season, people had to apply for this ride but it was FREE, i never asked for anything in return. What i got out of it.....met some awesome people that i still as of today keep in touch with and occasionally still ride with, many of them are on this forum.
In 2010..i think it was 2010, the year of the big avalanche at the BIS in Revy, the guided Dootalk ride included one day at Boulder. The same day the avalanche occurred. The day before, i got the Dootalk group together and cancelled the ride in Revy and put it on in Sicamous instead. WHY, because of the avalanche dangers in the Revy area, is it because i can fore tell the future LOL. Its understanding condition's through years of being in it, i was responsible for people lifes. How interesting that many choose to ignore the signs that day or most likely had no clue of the condition's. Even people with so called EXPERIENCE that should had known better.

Here here mike


Yes we were to go to ride and watch b.I.s that day, but with mike's advice we as a group decided to ride hunters range again as it was puking snow, and conditions dictated not to go

 

[Lund]

Another thing i hear alot is the number of ride's one puts in. All i can say is great on you for getting out that many times but unless you have respect for the environment your in and understand it, combined with trained knowledge and real life experience that doesn't come in the number of rides but come's in a life time of experiences you will never be humble enough. Eventually the lack of humility will bite you in the butt, hopefully you learn something from it and live through it. The mountain's have a way of weening out rider's. There are plenty of evidence of this...

Riding a dozen times, 40-50 times, 100+++ times a season means NOTHING if you don't comprehend the environment your in, which takes more then a course and a few years...its a life time of experiences. It just mean you have been lucky so far.
How many of you actually slow down on a ride and stop to look around, absorb the surroundings and study the condition's and ask your self question's about them????
The mountain do talk to you, you just need to learn to listen. A huge advantage back country skiing has over sledding, its slow and you can immerse your self into the environment.

 

[lilduke]

I have guided for ZERO $ a day, my point, the money should have little to do in making sure as a guide that the people are safe, you doit cause you love it. Does that mean if you got little pay the people you guided would be less safe?
From 2009 to 2014 i voluntarily guided 20-25 rider's from the DOOTALK forum for 3 day's. One weekend a season, people had to apply for this ride but it was FREE, i never asked for anything in return. What i got out of it.....met some awesome people that i still as of today keep in touch with and occasionally still ride with, many of them are on this forum.
In 2010..i think it was 2010, the year of the big avalanche at the BIS in Revy, the guided Dootalk ride included one day at Boulder. The same day the avalanche occurred. The day before, i got the Dootalk group together and cancelled the ride in Revy and put it on in Sicamous instead. WHY, because of the avalanche dangers in the Revy area, is it because i can fore tell the future LOL. Its understanding condition's through years of being in it, i was responsible for people lifes. How interesting that many choose to ignore the signs that day or most likely had no clue of the condition's. Even people with so called EXPERIENCE that should had known better.

I have guided people for free lots, because I love it too. I need to eat though and have a house ext, So instead of guiding Ill probably just go get a real Job.That is my point. Heli Skiing has a good track record because it is always a guided tour. If sledders had to have a Pro guide with them in the back country they'd be way safer.

Also, I'm not going to go invest thousands of dollars and time to get the same level of training as a Heli Ski guide so I can go work at Glacier House for 15$ an hour.

Its risky back there and if Im taking responsibility for others lives I want to be payed well or fawk it ur on ur own.

 

[lilduke]

You ride by yourself lol I wouldn't hire you sorry

Its ok, dont think you need a guide.

 

[scotts]

When you go Heli Skiing, you go with a Guide that knows what they are doing. Pay me 400$ a day(per person) and Ill make sure you live through the day. I have more than 1000 days in the backcountry.

Why not get the certified training behind you as well? With that much time in, you could have been a Level 2 by now and truly be able to "Walk the Walk" and be a real force for change.

 

[lilduke]

Why not get the certified training behind you as well? With that much time in, you could have been a Level 2 by now and truly be able to "Walk the Walk" and be a real force for change.

Because there is not enough money in it. Wanted to be a guide at one point. Not so much any more.

 

[Lund]

I have guided people for free lots, because I love it too. I need to eat though and have a house ext, So instead of guiding Ill probably just go get a real Job.That is my point. Heli Skiing has a good track record because it is always a guided tour. If sledders had to have a Pro guide with them in the back country they'd be way safer.

Also, I'm not going to go invest thousands of dollars and time to get the same level of training as a Heli Ski guide so I can go work at Glacier House for 15$ an hour.

Its risky back there and if Im taking responsibility for others lives I want to be payed well or fawk it ur on ur own.

I completely understand, yes you need to pay your bill's. I also tried to do it as a living at one time but it doesn't pay enough to survive on yearly. So i have to pull wrenches during the week and have a job like regular joe.
When i guided i could bring home $250-$1000 a day when busy during the season but the rest of the time nothing and yes to get your papers is expensive.

I was offered to get on a touring company in Pemberton, to guide with sleds in winter and river rafting in summer months. Hourly pay though... like $15 or so per hour.

 

[lilduke]

I completely understand, yes you need to pay your bill's. I also tried to do it as a living at one time but it doesn't pay enough to survive on yearly. So i have to pull wrenches during the week and have a job like regular joe.
When i guided i could bring home $250-$1000 a day when busy during the season but the rest of the time nothing and yes to get your papers is expensive.

I can charge good $ per day too. But at the end of the day, I don't have tenure, Glacier house has it all and its way too hard to get. Don't want to work for them.

Some of their "guides" have almost no time in the hills. The sled guiding industry is a joke.

 

[tex78]

Another thing i hear alot is the number of ride's one puts in. All i can say is great on you for getting out that many times but unless you have respect for the environment your in and understand it, combined with trained knowledge and real life experience that doesn't come in the number of rides but come's in a life time of experiences you will never be humble enough. Eventually the lack of humility will bite you in the butt, hopefully you learn something from it and live through it. The mountain's have a way of weening out rider's. There are plenty of evidence of this...

Riding a dozen times, 40-50 times, 100+++ times a season means NOTHING if you don't comprehend the environment your in, which takes more then a course and a few years...its a life time of experiences. It just mean you have been lucky so far.
How many of you actually slow down on a ride and stop to look around, absorb the surroundings and study the condition's and ask your self question's about them????
The mountain do talk to you, you just need to learn to listen. A huge advantage back country skiing has over sledding, its slow and you can immerse your self into the environment.

That's not all true mike




The more I get up, the more I know what's up as far as snow, loading, which way it's been drifted and that tell the way the wind has loaded, seeing what has slid either natural or set off by man, and what is sliding ( exposure to Sun sides, loaded sides, and slope angles ect....)

So the more I get up to keep tabs of fresh activity, the more I know

 

[niner]

Not trying to derail the guide discussion but had a thought on gps. Would it make sense to be able to download the map for a certain riding area, and when came up to certain hills they could have a rating on hazard. Could flash on your screen if there has been fatalities on that slope. Would take a guy like Curtis to give ratings as he has seen areas that are prone to sliding. They could charge for this map to recoup the time it would take to rate the hills. Thoughts??

 

[tex78]

Not trying to derail the guide discussion but had a thought on gps. Would it make sense to be able to download the map for a certain riding area, and when came up to certain hills they could have a rating on hazard. Could flash on your screen if there has been fatalities on that slope. Would take a guy like Curtis to give ratings as he has seen areas that are prone to sliding. They could charge for this map to recoup the time it would take to rate the hills. Thoughts??

Too many variables even week to week and year to year

Good idea, but may give someone false readings saying it won't slide

 

[moyiesledhead]

Too many variables even week to week and year to year

Good idea, but may give someone false readings saying it won't slide

And expose whomever came up with the map to huge liability issues if they misseed something or were even percieved to have missed something.

 

[powderhoundbrr]

I definitely agree with broke. We need to learn from these incidents. Seems people are afraid to post details. We definitely don't need names, but pics, locations, avy conditions and weather at the time of the incident could help people out huge in the types of terrain they travel in and decisions they make. Not everyone has done training so I think this would be a huge benefit especially to those people. Either way I think education and discussion is key to help prevent future incidents.

All this is usually reported after fact on the CAC site in incidents. You should check it out.

 

[Lund]

That's not all true mike




The more I get up, the more I know what's up as far as snow, loading, which way it's been drifted and that tell the way the wind has loaded, seeing what has slid either natural or set off by man, and what is sliding ( exposure to Sun sides, loaded sides, and slope angles ect....)

So the more I get up to keep tabs of fresh activity, the more I know

Very true Jeff, its not what i meant by that. Being regular up in the hill's gives you a real world understanding of what is going on in your area. Thus why a local rider is a good source of info for a given area, thus why i call you some times.
What i mean is in general in area that you do not have that info. you have to rely on your own knowledge and experiences to be able to identify the hazards.

 

[niner]

Too many variables even week to week and year to year

Good idea, but may give someone false readings saying it won't slide

Then just have warning signs on your gps of hills that have slid with the fatalities. They have all the coordinates from S&R. Would be a good reminder of lives lost.