Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[Couch]

Depends on your riding area. Here we are quite likely to encounter gullies and rivers. If you ride only in the dry of pure mountain powder then a gortex boot is fine. 1 in 1000 is fine but here its more like 1 in 15 so a waterproof boot works very well.

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[c_nelson99]

All the training in the world is useless unless you apply what you learn.

Start with making calculated intelligent decisions on the terrain you ride in, open your mouth and say something if guys in your group are making poor decisions and stop taking nu-neccesary risks.

Some times its as easy as going over to the guys pulling the big hills and telling them what they are doing looks super dangerous, if they tell you off at least you did your part in trying to help.

Guys I ride with will always say something if it needs to be said and we look out for each other, wouldn't ride with them if they were any different.

 

[Roy Maxwell]

Great post Curtis. Sure has everyone thinking and offering some great suggestions. I look at the heli-ski industry and given the number of heli-ski companies and the number of people those companies put on the hills in any given year and the terrain they ski that industry has a very good record when it comes to avy deaths. The reason I think is because they are "guided" adventures into the back country by professionally trained guides whom take their job very seriously. I remember accidentally getting a little ahead of our guide one day and he tore me a new a**hole and said if it happened again I would be on a helicopter back to the lodge at considerable additional expense to myself. Not being someone whom is fond of regulations I am not suggesting that it become mandatory to hire a professionally trained mountain guide to ride in the back country as would limit those that wished to ride in the back country due to affordability and shortage of qualified guides. One thing I am sure of though is that with professionally trained mountain guides whom took their job as seriously as the heli-ski guides we would see a dramatic drop in avy deaths from sledding as not only would the guides not allow the client's on or near dangerous terrain but there would also be repercussions for those ignoring the guide. That in my mind would get the numbers down very quickly but to me is an unacceptable level of regulation. I think over the long haul we are making progress with the training, beacon checks, beacon parks, etc. I am sure gradually over time the per capita avy deaths from sledding are dropping given that some time back very few took a course, had beacons, shovels and probes and carried two way radios and sat phones.

 

[Bnorth]

According to Avalanche Canada 7000 people go through their avalanche training every year but only 10% of those are sledders which is also the biggest winter backcountry user group. That is a troubling stat and frankly much worse than I expected.

 

[pistoncontracting]

Well, looks like a prominent member of our community gave us all a lesson in avalanche safety.

 

[Foxstar45]

^^^^^ Not thrilled with smug comments like these.

 

[scotts]

Great post Curtis. Sure has everyone thinking and offering some great suggestions. I look at the heli-ski industry and given the number of heli-ski companies and the number of people those companies put on the hills in any given year and the terrain they ski that industry has a very good record when it comes to avy deaths. The reason I think is because they are "guided" adventures into the back country by professionally trained guides whom take their job very seriously. I remember accidentally getting a little ahead of our guide one day and he tore me a new a**hole and said if it happened again I would be on a helicopter back to the lodge at considerable additional expense to myself. Not being someone whom is fond of regulations I am not suggesting that it become mandatory to hire a professionally trained mountain guide to ride in the back country as would limit those that wished to ride in the back country due to affordability and shortage of qualified guides. One thing I am sure of though is that with professionally trained mountain guides whom took their job as seriously as the heli-ski guides we would see a dramatic drop in avy deaths from sledding as not only would the guides not allow the client's on or near dangerous terrain but there would also be repercussions for those ignoring the guide. That in my mind would get the numbers down very quickly but to me is an unacceptable level of regulation. I think over the long haul we are making progress with the training, beacon checks, beacon parks, etc. I am sure gradually over time the per capita avy deaths from sledding are dropping given that some time back very few took a course, had beacons, shovels and probes and carried two way radios and sat phones.

I think you have a really valid point here, I had the opportunity this winter to spend a few days with a group of heli ski guides during an AVSar course out in whistler. As the only sledder there, I found it to be a really amazing opertunity to sit and speak with some of these amazing snow professionals from all over the world. There was a guide from Russia, one from Iceland, several Americans as well as a couple people from Quebec, the rest were from BC, needless to say an Alberta grain farmer was a bit of an odd ball in the mix. Lol! Outside of the amazing learning experience offered through this course by the CAA, I was able to learn so much from these guides in the short spare time we had. The most glaring thing that came to mind was how utterly unprepared we sledders are on a whole in comparison to these back country operations that surround our riding areas.
Skiers travelling in groups with a trained lead guide out front and another tail guide out back! I wonder how many Level 1's or 2's would be floating around any of the popular sledding hills on any given weekend? I would dare to guess one or two out of a couple hundred riders at the very best!
Heli operations are continuously sharing conditions and observations through info ex, keeping each operation entirely aware of what's happening in the environment all around them. In the event of an incident the Calvery is a call away, as neighbour operations will pull out all stops to assist each other. where as each group of sledders basically travel out there on there own , largely untrained and sometimes under the influence of drugs and alcohol. I know I'm comparing professionally run backcountry operations to weekend recreationalists, but that is the standard that the media and the general public are comparing us too.
A large number of sledders are very biased against these operations but it's time we looked to these highly successful enterprises as a model for conducting our own backcountry travel.
Operations like Frozen Pirate have increased awareness and training by leaps and bounds but these people can only do so much, people really need to start to take responsibility and raise the bar in regards to backcountry travel before we are legislated right off the mountain!

 

[Barker]

^^^^^ Not thrilled with smug comments like these.

Maybe we all need to call a spade a spade, and quit pu$$y footing around. People are dieing. Imagine these incidents were you, best friend, or loved one. Think about what your putting these people through?? What about the damn men and women that got to get these bodies out of there. What your putting them through, good lord the chit they got going on in there heads. You think they just appear at the funeral?? Maybe we should start posting pics of the actual scenes.. Show it through these people's eyes. Might drive it home.

 

[Foxstar45]

Maybe we all need to call a spade a spade, and quit pu$$y footing around. People are dieing. Imagine these incidents were you, best friend, or loved one. Think about what your putting these people through?? What about the damn men and women that got to get these bodies out of there. What your putting them through, good lord the chit they got going on in there heads. You think they just appear at the funeral?? Maybe we should start posting pics of the actual scenes.. Show it these people's eyes. Might drive it home.

I'd rather pu%&y foot around than act like a smug coward who thinks he's changing the world with re%&Ted forum posts. You're not doing anyone a damn bit of good here. Beat it

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[moyiesledhead]

^^^^^ Not thrilled with smug comments like these.

Too friggin bad! Talking nice to people isn't working. Maybe it's time we stopped trying to be so politically correct about it. What's it gonna take people? I'm so fawking angry right now I could spit nails!

 

[Foxstar45]

Too friggin bad! Talking nice to people isn't working. Maybe it's time we stopped trying to be so politically correct about it. What's it gonna take people? I'm so fawking angry right now I could spit nails!

I'm not talking nice to anyone here and you guys still act like half wits. So... I guess we aren't solving anything.

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[pipes]

Its not the OEM's sole responsibility? Do the auto manufacturers force peeps to take driving lessons or tests? No. Its the governments responsibility and it should be here to. Take training if you want a backcountry license. Plain and simple.

I disagree with you. It's not the governments responsibility, it's the users responsibility. It's the manufactures responsibility to ensure that the product they manufacture is safe to use your responsibility to use their equipment safely. It's the users responsibility, bottom line.

 

[Bernoff]

It is changing out there but you don't see or hear about it. Just like you don't hear much good news on T.V. Radio etc. You don't how many groups pull into an area , stop , discuss the slopes, possibly dig some holes , and say " no" we are not going stay cause of the dangers. If you walked the halls of the motels and asked guys if they left areas that day, you may be pleasantly surprised. There are no stats for that but doesn't mean it didn't happen. Keep talking about this Curtis and all the rest of you that look after us out there ,we need you. Through repetition it does sink in.

 

[Lem Lamb]

Pretty sad to think of the families, friends, S&R responders, the RCMP who have to break the news that this person(s) is not coming home, plus all the folks who know one another in S&M on top of that.

Are these selfish acts in most cases as there was no need for the larger percentage of this to happen had wiser planning taken press-a-dance of what really went on.
Who was planning these rides, what thoughts were put into them from the get go.

Not pointing any fingers at anyone since many of us have seen close calls in the many years of ridding avy country, me for sure with 14 years of BC outings across most of the Province,,, any who...

Its threads like this that bring it home by asking folks what preparation they are bring to the table, what game plan is your group choosing for the days ride.
Who's calling the shots, is everyone on the same page.
Is this the hill the group is picking too ride, and where is the safe zone for spotters !!!
Does this area fit the matrix's card of 7 check points that do not lead into the "RED" danger card.

Too late for the brothers that are now gone, but we can take away from what they would say now knowing what we now know for facts.

Snowmobiling is suppose to be a fun enjoyable sport, and with better planning with everyone participation, it can return to that once again.

Best thing is to share this on everyone on your rides, "weather folks like it or not". Let them know about "your" close calls at this or that.
Mistakes you've learned by, things "you your self" would change.
Time to be selfish and talk about "you, you, and you" on trying to find better planning.

The old saying needs to return to the dinner table...

If you fail to plan, your plan will fail. Maybe a big AZZ poster in the cabins and warming huts for all to see might change the minds of someone's next ride.
A different story each day to prevent the conversation from becoming boring.

When I got told I was doing it wrong, I took it the right way since I love my family, friends and me more then ever. The word safety sucks, so I changed it up to "quality & control" since it drives it home.

We now speak for those brothers who can't, so being the mentor to wiser choses might be the actions for "us" to do in our life time.
The best ice breaker for me is to talk about my own faults, and how I plan on changing them. No one wants to be "told," so find better wording that makes friends and dose not drive brothers & sisters away.

The word community is I,,, I am community so I bring this up since I am a friend.

Pal Lem

 

[deaner]

Too friggin bad! Talking nice to people isn't working. Maybe it's time we stopped trying to be so politically correct about it. What's it gonna take people? I'm so fawking angry right now I could spit nails!

Couldnt agree more. Whats it going to take?? Something has to change and everybody politely sending their "thoughts and prayers" doesnt seem to be doing much good.

 

[pistoncontracting]

^^^^^ Not thrilled with smug comments like these.

Which part did you feel was smug?

Watch the videos. He didn't get his name by being tame.
It sucks, but the media and every other anti is likely going to love this. It is exactly the stereo type that mountain sledders get labelled with. We're all just a bunch of lunatics, racing up the sides of mountains, just hoping to die.

The term 'risk mitigation' comes up a lot when talking about safety. It's a joke. Watching Dans movies, this should have happened long ago. By all accounts, he was in the danger zone most of the time. And yet, look how long he got away with it. On the flip side, many people can follow all the rules, take all the courses, and get wiped off the ****ing trail on the way home.

How do we save people from dieing on a snowmobile? Easy, stop letting people ride them. That is the ONLY thing that will stop it.

 

[tex78]

Too friggin bad! Talking nice to people isn't working. Maybe it's time we stopped trying to be so politically correct about it. What's it gonna take people? I'm so fawking angry right now I could spit nails!

Well that makes two of us, as stated in the last death - avalanche


But everyone thinks it's bad to say it so close to something happening

Well how many does it take before people smarten the fawk up, ride less than what the conditions dictate, don't ride alone for fawk sakes, and make sure everyone has more than minimum needed equipment for all aspects

Maybe we all need to call a spade a spade, and quit pu$$y footing around. People are dieing. Imagine these incidents were you, best friend, or loved one. Think about what your putting these people through?? What about the damn men and women that got to get these bodies out of there. What your putting them through, good lord the chit they got going on in there heads. You think they just appear at the funeral?? Maybe we should start posting pics of the actual scenes.. Show it through these people's eyes. Might drive it home.

That's what this world is coming too, bunch of game playing keyboard blabing pansies

 

[scotts]

^^^^^ Not thrilled with smug comments like these.

Holy head shake!! 11 pages of people talking of about how changes need to be made in relation to how we look at these incidents and you get confrontational with the very first guy that calls a spade a spade regarding this latest fatality. You sir are a perfect example of the problem!

 

[Grizzly4323]

I sure want to chime in here but this is absolute craziness!! I'm ready to snap!!
Do we all know the true meaning of insanity? We can't expect a change if we keep doing the same fackin thing!! That is what is happening here. Keep going into the sketchy areas and keep running into bad situations. It's real simple... Fack boys comon!!!!

 

[pipes]

Well that makes two of us, as stated in the last death - avalanche


But everyone thinks it's bad to say it so close to something happening

Well how many does it take before people smarten the fawk up, ride less than what the conditions dictate, don't ride alone for fawk sakes, and make sure everyone has more than minimum needed equipment for all aspects

That's what this world is coming too, bunch of game playing keyboard blabing pansies

A little harsh but true.