Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[Foxstar45]

I actually think people seem a lot more cautious than they did 7-8 years ago. When I first started riding, every slope in Allan and Clemina were groomed by people highmarking the hell out of the place within a few days of a snow fall. Then 2009 happened.. I lost a v close friend that year like so many other people. Since then it seems like there are fewer and fewer groups of sleds taking turns climbing stuff. Average fatalities are trending downwards. There will never be 0 I'm afraid, but whatever education and awareness people are getting might actually be slowly paying off. Incidents like these are awful and no, there is no silver lining at all. There are no more lessons learned by any normal person as a direct result. It sucks for these friends and families.

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[tex78]

A little harsh but true.

I know


I got called out a few weeks ago with the golden incident, for saying come on get with it people

Now it's blueriver, crowfoot , Kevin here last week and now Dan ( both alone a week apart) ( and both very experienced but nuts in the same sense)

Unfortunately I guess if that's what it takes, I'll take one for the team and look like a azzhole, to say smarten the fawk up sled brothers and sisters

 

[tex78]

I actually think people seem a lot more cautious than they did 7-8 years ago. When I first started riding, every slope in Allan and Clemina were groomed by people highmarking the hell out of the place within a few days of a snow fall. Then 2009 happened.. I lost a v close friend that year like so many other people. Since then it seems like there are fewer and fewer groups of sleds taking turns climbing stuff. Average fatalities are trending downwards. There will never be 0 I'm afraid, but whatever education and awareness people are getting might actually be slowly paying off. Incidents like these are awful and no, there is no silver lining at all. There are no more lessons learned by any normal person as a direct result. It sucks for these friends and families.

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Bull sh!t, nothing can be learned???





Don't fawking sled alone at all


3 incidents in 200 km of each other in one year, all preventable

Come on

 

[Foxstar45]

Thanks for pointing out the fact that you looked like a jerk a few weeks ago. If I read what you said I would probably agree. And look, your brave and heroic interneting didn't prevent these last 3 from getting it. I wish it would have.. Their families do to, I assure you. We already knew that snowmobiling alone is a very bad idea.. these weren't even the first incidents this year of this causing something terrible. So no, there are no new lessons.

I hope you don't walk around at a fat guys funeral asking everyone how many people need to die of heart attacks before we all learn something. That would be dum too. I realize you guys have good intentions and you deep down just wish that we didn't have to see this anymore. You just happen to have bigger hearts and mouths than brains.

 

[pistoncontracting]

Thanks for pointing out the fact that you looked like a jerk a few weeks ago. If I read what you said I would probably agree. And look, your brave and heroic interneting didn't prevent these last 3 from getting it. I wish it would have.. Their families do to, I assure you. We already knew that snowmobiling alone is a very bad idea.. these weren't even the first incidents this year of this causing something terrible. So no, there are no new lessons.

I hope you don't walk around at a fat guys funeral asking everyone how many people need to die of heart attacks before we all learn something. That would be dum too. I realize you guys have good intentions and you deep down just wish that we didn't have to see this anymore. You just happen to have bigger hearts and mouths than brains.

Maybe that's the problem. Maybe when we put peoples lives ahead of some people's feelings, meaningful change will occur.

 

[GregW]

A very interesting discussion, one very close to us all from wide ranging perspectives, have read them all and am amazed how after 13 pages of comments and discussion we are no closer to solving the issue now than from Curtis's original note, a testament to just how important this issue is and how difficult and elusive a tangible solution is. That said, I ask one follow up question, how do we take all this diverse discussion and distill it down to a probable solution? I'm struck with the thought and sentiment that a home grown solution is likely our best option. If we don't take control and own the solution society and govts have a terrible habit of forcing one upon us and usually with less than desirable results. So, how do we move forward as a group and to our collective betterment? I certainly have my own thoughts and opinions and echo many already stated but won't bore everyone with restating them again, how do we lead this charge and who leads it? I fear standing on the side lines will cost us all.

 

[snochuk]

Great thread Curtis. I think a lot of this stems from a generation of riders that feel they are bigger than the sport and are indestructible. Its not just avalanche training, its trail manners, its drinking and riding, its a lot of things. Its a "me'' generation. This won't happen to "me". I paid my trail fee and "I" will ride it anyway I feel like even though the trail fee guy asked "me" to drive slow to save the trail. "I" don't have time for avy training because "I" am a busy guy. "I" will drink at the cabin because drinking doesn't affect "my" judgement, and the list goes on and on. If you want to get peeps to better stewards of our sport then legislate everything. Its probably the only language they will ever understand.

I 100% agree with your post. Sadly the last line is also what I believe it will take along with policing by real mountain cops.

There are just to many of the "only a few bad apples" on the hill. Tried to intervene on a group (three stuck with four more on the same face trying to help with two at the base looking up) and thought I was gonna get the chit beat out of me.

Drivers licience, sledders licience and AST1.........oh you can't produce them, sorry sir but we can not sell you a trail pass.
Hate to see this as it will limit access through high cost to sled but it is just a matter of time.

And I drink, some times a LOT but can do without it on the mountain. Just ban it past the trail booth. When those mountain cops do arrive up on the hill or just the RCs in the parking lot lets start with say $1K and sled impounded. Random search at the trail booth going up. We kill each other faster than NASCAR and they dont have one every pit stop.
Hmmm no I don't like brews on the hill.

 

[Lem Lamb]

As stated in some of the articals is that fatalities are down from 14% to 5 ish % less the rise this year for 2016.

One can rest-assure that change will come from family members that will address the powers to be for change.

The how we use to do it days ago might be changing with regulations, and area closers so first responeders/ S&R can better manage safer controls for them selves "in" the event of incidents like this.

Don't get me right or wrong, but change will come one way or the other with or with out our aprovel.

Good or bad depends on what needs to be done. Either by snowmobile clubs or by goverment.

The powers that be sometimes act on knee jurk reaction of what's going on, one would think that this chat is being talked about at much higher levels then on the public forums.

Just 2 cents of what "could" be behind the walls un-seen.

Pal Lem

 

[iceman5689]

Realizing how dangerous sledding can be, we take the appropriate precautions in order to minimize the risk. The knowledge of the risks actually mitigates the potential. Of course despite a sledder's best efforts, accidents do happen and there are sometimes factors beyond control, but overall I think we tend to be a risk aware group (which is sometimes contrary to popular belief). Abroad from these tragic events, we may be able to reduce numbers but will never eliminate them. Just reading an article, 14 deaths in Alberta in the last 48hrs on our roadways. Put this in perspective to the 11 fatalities thus far this season. Avalanche activity seems to accrue hierarchy when it comes to a news story in the public eye. Predominantly when snowmobiles are involved. What I'm getting at is even though you think you have all necessary training tools for the job their is ALWAYS going to be a dice in the game. As the saying goes and how we joke around in our work safety meetings... "No body moves, nobody gets hurt" . Lets keep enjoying what we have and what we love to do. Might not ever be a complete solution to the ongoing events.

 

[Joholio]

The easiest thing to fix would be not going alone. Right there we would possibly had 3 less right off the top. That and terrain DECISIONS! I got nothing else to add because I dont have AST1 yet, but Ive seen guys with it do questionable things on questionable slopes that I simply did not drive my sled on.

 

[Barker]

A thread on S&M is not going to change or fix anything. If you really want to help or change the sport. Get off the damn computer. Dedicate your life to getting all required training, start teaching others. Just like Soul Rides or Frozen Pirates did.
Or try to support them as much as you can so they can try to deliver the message.

 

[Lund]

People, you can talk till the cows come home about this, you can have more rules and regulations. Have government legislate the crap out of the sport, operators permits similar to the boating permit...a graduated licencing system for sledders, courses and more courses and so on.
Fact is, as long as there is a snowmobile capable of traveling the mountains there will continue to be incidents and people will be involved. Avalanches or some other incident. That is the hazard of back country travel. They are there, they've alway's been there and the more people venture into these areas incidents will always happen.
Unless the sport is 100% banned from the mountains you can expect deaths. Your other option is not being involved in the sport.
Back country skiers deal with the same hazards, the biggest difference is most extreme back country skier don't get deep in till years of skiing and learn the hazards and how to spot hazards better. The slower pace of the sport causes this, unlike being able to rip through the mountains on a sled missing the tell tell signs of a danger zone. Unless you have that out doors experience to spot the hazards, sledders will continue to ride into them and in most cases unknowingly.

BTW, if your one of them sledders who thinks sticking to the tree line makes you safe, your wrong. Avy hazards are every where there are mountains, with the right conditions snow will slide in the right area's. Trees or not. The only way to avoid being in an avy is to be on top of the mountain and i mean completely on top. Snow won't slide up hill LOL. But you have to get there.
I have personally seen what an avy will do to a tree area after it goes through, it can snap trees like tooth picks.

To avoid avies is to ride flat areas like rolling hills, lower elevations, but then thats not mountain riding IMO.

 

[pistoncontracting]

BTW, if your one of them sledders who thinks sticking to the tree line makes you safe, your wrong. Avy hazards are every where there are mountains, with the right conditions snow will slide in the right area's. Trees or not. The only way to avoid being in an avy is to be on top of the mountain and i mean completely on top. Snow won't slide up hill LOL. But you have to get there.
I have personally seen what an avy will do to a tree area after it goes through, it can snap trees like tooth picks.
To avoid avies is to ride flat areas like rolling hills, lower elevations, but then thats not mountain riding IMO.

There are trees, with 6' spacings, at 7000'. I agree, that you are not totaly sheltered from the dangers of slides in those conditions. In that same area, I have been minutes behind a slide run across the trail, a mile from the stageing area. That was a few years ago, the last time everyone was thinking they needed to save the world.

Trees anchor the snow. Tree slides are much smaller then open slopes. Tree riding comes with it's own set of dangers though as well, and that's my point. As long as there is a crowd of people saying that your 'no mountain rider' unless you stick to the wide open slopes, the problem won't go away. Might even get worse.

Good luck.

 

[Joholio]

People, you can talk till the cows come home about this, you can have more rules and regulations. Have government legislate the crap out of the sport, operators permits similar to the boating permit...a graduated licencing system for sledders, courses and more courses and so on.
Fact is, as long as there is a snowmobile capable of traveling the mountains there will continue to be incidents and people will be involved. Avalanches or some other incident. That is the hazard of back country travel. They are there, they've alway's been there and the more people venture into these areas incidents will always happen.
Unless the sport is 100% banned from the mountains you can expect deaths. Your other option is not being involved in the sport.
Back country skiers deal with the same hazards, the biggest difference is most extreme back country skier don't get deep in till years of skiing and learn the hazards and how to spot hazards better. The slower pace of the sport causes this, unlike being able to rip through the mountains on a sled missing the tell tell signs of a danger zone. Unless you have that out doors experience to spot the hazards, sledders will continue to ride into them and in most cases unknowingly.

BTW, if your one of them sledders who thinks sticking to the tree line makes you safe, your wrong. Avy hazards are every where there are mountains, with the right conditions snow will slide in the right area's. Trees or not. The only way to avoid being in an avy is to be on top of the mountain and i mean completely on top. Snow won't slide up hill LOL. But you have to get there.
I have personally seen what an avy will do to a tree area after it goes through, it can snap trees like tooth picks.

To avoid avies is to ride flat areas like rolling hills, lower elevations, but then thats not mountain riding IMO.

Sounds like the solution is riding flat areas and government intervention? Thats what I take from this.

How about when avy ratings are high, stay off high angle terrain? Nope, ego gets in the way. New to area? Nope, blast over the top of the mountain you just found and into the unknown... Stop and take a minute to LOOK and see where and IF you can safely traverse an area and play! I see few people adjust their plans to slay epic pow, even with warnings and the lot attendant reminding you of the danger. I personally can be happy riding the lower elevations(I know, that makes me a "non-mountain rider", my ego can handle it) when such warnings are obvious, without having to blow by the cabin and head for the biggest scariest hill around like its their first time ever riding with a raging hard on.

CHOICES! ...

I choose to ride again next trip!

 

[Joholio]

Stolen from your FB

 

[Joholio]

this post is spot on. Im sure this dude is on this site...

 

[bbtoys]

How about two simple statements. KNOW YOUR TERRAIN and most important RESPECT YOUR TERRAIN.
If you don't know the terrain don't go unless you are with a guide, this will save us sar guys from having to come and get you and now that you know the terrain if you have more respect for it than your egos would be a good start.

 

[Highfly]

I'm so frustrated. A director of avy center (was skiing), and a professional snowmobile rider. Two people that if anyone should know it was them. So clearly training doesnt matter or so it seems....
I personally believe and I have heard it before, It is a mind set. It is highly unlikely I will ever be caught in an avalanche for two reasons. One, I don't need to be doing 1000' pulls to get a thrill and two because I ride with my 18 year old daughter. Think about that. Next time you go and do that pull hypothetically put your wife, your kid, your mom, your dad on that back of that seat with you (assuming you all have a great relationship together ;-).Trying to put some humor in a very serious matter... You still going to do it? If conditions are perfect hell yes, and we are going to have a blast doing it.
Snowmobiling is a safe sport if conditions are perfect. How do we know conditions are perfect, training? Hmmm back to the training, just went full circle... training wont help with the wrong mind set..... I do not known what the answer is. We need to get this figured out.

Side note. I usually do not post in threads like this because I have a hard time getting my thoughts across with out either not clearly making a point or having people miss take what I am trying to say. I never win arguments with my wife... again trying to keep it light....

 

[MOMMA]

I'll throw a few more scenarios out there.. it will give you an idea of what I'm dealing with here and how I'm on the verge of saying #@%@ feelings lives matter!! Every life matters. Pull your head out and think.. use your brain, and make decisions to stay alive.

1. Persistent weak layer with rains for a week straight, followed by 2 days of heavy snow.. Being the president of my club I pushed to cancel the Poker run. Knowing my demographic, and the sad number of individuals who do not have basic avy gear, knowledge and understanding of snow pack I did not want to bring 50 people into the back country amidst deadly conditions. Long time member of the club blasts me, telling me that the poker run must go on.. we need the 400.00 revenue... That I can't save everyone, That i need to let stupid take care of itself... My action plan. Poker run cancelled, and no fatalities, and extensive outreach on the past 2 weeks events to try to reach those who are unreachable.

2. I have sled kids I do outreach with each week helping them prepare and understand Avy and back country safety. I work with SAR and these kids are awesome. One of the kids went to his dad and asked for transceiver shovel and probe. The father's answer " you don't need that garbage, if you get into an avalanche you'll die anyways". My action plan.. continue outreach, make attempts to help the parents of my sled kids understand avalanche safety (his father was a snowmobiler in flat land type terrain) Try to raise the resources to outfit all my sled kids.

3. Customer comes in the store asks where it's good to go riding right now, wants to buy a can for his brand new sled. I remind him of the conditions and ask if he has avy gear .. answer is no... and he can't wear a back pack because it hurts his neck. Needs a holder on his sled for his shovel. Action plan.. continue to talk to him, his group, his wife, his group's wives to try to get them to understand the devastating consequences of riding unprepared, and unknowing.

For those who think talking about it does nothing, it does... reaching out talking, organizing.. compassion and sometimes tough love.. being outspoken, being candid.. each scenario and each person is different... there isn't one answer.. This is like an infection that has many different cures, but the main thing is we try to cure no matter what that looks like simply try to stop the fatal infection. If we don't try then what is the point? I personally need to believe that trying is making a difference. God bless all those who try. I'm so sad, and so frustrated right now. Please try.

 

[flying frenchman]

These new sleds aren't the weapons, it's the guy behind the bars pulling the trigger.
People did bad decisions in the past with old sleds and still do on the new ones.
Sure the new ones go places the old ones didn't but man use your head.
Its not just you on the hill, it's your friends or family too.
Get educated and use and respect what you learned.
I've seen this many times where guys are in places where they shouldn't be.
You think your a mountain sledder, we'll then start thinking like one.
Look at the risk and ask yourself do I wanna ride another day or gamble with life.
You makes the decisions, Not your buddy, not your group.