If you ride in BC please take this survey!

[bcjeepr]

Were i ride the biggest threat is Willows and alders , Summer and winter . Grooming is secondary.

 

[briguy99]

More important than ever to be involved with organized snowmobiling in this province!!

 

[ferniesnow]

"Last Friday we had over 1100 votes, 88.9 percent in favour of a Provincial Pass within a dollar amount of $150-$200"...............

So, most people answering the Monkey Survey (88.9%) want to save money for themselves and aren't really thinking about the expenses of the clubs that are providing the services. Kind of interesting isn't it??????

If I understand correctly, a PMP will allow a rider to ride wherever with no additional cost. That is a crock of horse pucks. You can't run the large clubs on any less than what they are getting and at that cost of $150-$200 it isn't going to cut it.

A bunch of tight arse riders who want someone else to pay. Sounds like Nothead and Trudumb.

 

[bobsledder]

This is the first survey I have filled out and I did because of this forum. I probably need to broaden my horizons.

I haven't seen a newsletter or an email asking for feedback on this issue from the Club I belong to. They do get those out when they want volunteers though.
Club meetings are on weekday evenings. Reality is a large percentage of members are like me and are away at work during the week or the area they belong to isn't home. I prefer to join where I ride and the odd time I go to another area pay the trail fee.

 

[Donegal-BCSF]

Thanks everyone for the feedback...some of it was obviously harsh but still read. I hope that the people that called all BCSF people a bunch a a*&holes don't actually know me or the Volunteers that work hard to be a voice for sledders in BC and are making assumptions

I am sorry for the late response on here...I do not cruise Snow and Mud very often and unless someone actually sends me a message and says hey there is a thread going...I am in the dark. To message me directly please send an email to office@bcsf.org or on Facebook that there is a question. It really helps and I can jump on and answer.

I think BCSF President, Richard Cronier, did a great job explaining his view on some of your comments. He is a great leader from a small Northern Club that brings a lot of value and perspective to the Team. There was another thread on here, more from the club perspective regarding the PMP and if one of the snowandmud gurus on here could link it in that would be amazing as I did some clarification on there as well. The BCSF has only presented one draft to the clubs so far. This was emailed to all clubs Presidents, than presented to all clubs in attendance in Winfield. We spent a day with those clubs capturing ideas and feedback to compile into a second draft. Than the season started and the office got buried. The BCSF knows and acknowledges that the first draft on the funding side did not meet the needs of all clubs but we had to start somewhere. So we listened and are working on a new funding matrix for review with the clubs. As we are a Federation of Snowmobile Clubs our members are the clubs and they will be the ones that form the future of the plan or ultimately ask the Federation to focus our energies on new projects. All clubs should have a copy of the first draft already and should be reviewing with their membership. A second draft of the funding matrix is imminent and will also be shared to all club presidents.

This survey was not intended for individual members or non-members to hash out the viability of the pass but rather to test the water to see if there was a desire from the ridership. We understand that not everyone is a member of a club for a varied number of reasons. We believe that one of these reasons is that they ride many areas and just pay the day fee to support the club they are riding in. But in order to effectively gage the market and present an accurate plan to the clubs we need some baseline data. Such as would you buy it and how much would you pay. What is being proposed has huge implications on the bottom line of our clubs and their funding. So we do not want to base the entire plan on assumptions of what we think will happen and how much we think people will pay. That is not good business practice nor something we would expect any club to make a decisions on. So the first draft had assumptions and we are using this survey to see if our assumptions were right. There are many unknowns going this route and we want to be sure that the plan clubs will review reflects as accurately as possible the reality of our position.

I loved the pic of the wine glasses...we have all seen it happen many times where the top glass just keeps filling. The BCSF presented this to our member clubs as something they need to decide they want to do and therefore something they control to prevent this from happening. Each season the funding formulas and rates would be set by the clubs. If we wait for Government to regulate us than that picture will be our reality. The BCSF wants us to be able to ride the backcountry for generations to come. But we see at this level that we are being outmaneuvered by Private Interest Groups with high paid staff and lobbyist. I share this link https://y2y.net/vision/our-progress because I think it accurately shows the gains for the green movement and sadly the losses for our sport. If we do not come together with a loud, properly funded voice and strong snowmobile clubs to back that voice..in 30 years this group will be celebrating that the Y2Y mission was accomplished. From Yellowstone to Yukon will be a non-motorized park and if we can still ride-it will be in small regulated snowparks operated like ski hills. That is not the vision of the BCSF or our clubs.

Someone called us the BCMF (BC Meeting Federation) and they were right. We sit in a ton of meetings trying to fight for the future of our sport i. I wrote a blog a while back on the BCMF British Columbia Snowmobile Federation | BCMF is it true? Being a member of any club is important regardless of the PMP. We need to show Victoria that we are loud and organized.

 

[norona]

"Last Friday we had over 1100 votes, 88.9 percent in favour of a Provincial Pass within a dollar amount of $150-$200"...............

So, most people answering the Monkey Survey (88.9%) want to save money for themselves and aren't really thinking about the expenses of the clubs that are providing the services. Kind of interesting isn't it??????

If I understand correctly, a PMP will allow a rider to ride wherever with no additional cost. That is a crock of horse pucks. You can't run the large clubs on any less than what they are getting and at that cost of $150-$200 it isn't going to cut it.

A bunch of tight arse riders who want someone else to pay. Sounds like Nothead and Trudumb.

I would not say that Doug, in Whistler there are four areas to pay, three to buy passes, I am not against paying at all which is why i usually buy a pass to two of the areas, which is 300.00, if I want to go to Brandywine another pass would be 150.00. I also would say half the riders in the province don't belong to a club nor do they pay any fees since there are a ton of areas that don't collect, can't collect or are not worth collecting. If everyone bought a pass then there would be more money. This is not my plan but I think personally it is better to have everyone paying a 100-200 to ride anywhere in the province. This way we capture the names of everyone for more opportunity at the government level, numbers do matter. Plus is everyone had to pay then the numbers would be up so would the money, you could still choose where you want your club money to go and there still would be day fees for guys from out of province etc. This could also in the future cut down on work with not having to have people in booths collecting, many are volunteers but some are not....this is a cost that could eventually be eliminated. Regardless of your stance these surveys are good and if you don't want this it is an opportunity to write your local club board and make sure the know. I definately don't know all the good and bad, those are my thoughts. I would disagree that I am cheap, but I would love to just have a pass that allows me to ride the areas around my area for one price....maybe these could be area dependant...come to revy buy your all areas pass and go, in valemount the same and in whistler the same...just throwing it out there...

 

[rightsideup]

I haven't seen a newsletter or an email asking for feedback on this issue from the Club I belong to. They do get those out when they want volunteers though.
Club meetings are on weekday evenings. Reality is a large percentage of members are like me and are away at work during the week or the area they belong to isn't home. I prefer to join where I ride and the odd time I go to another area pay the trail fee.

i agree communication can and should funnel to those that cannot attend and in our case i would venture to say that s about 92 per cent of season pass people for the reasons you have mentioned do not know what has transpired at these meetings. Items like agenda items and minutes are kept electronically but not distributed I know some technologies are faltering right now.

 

[tex78]

Ya like bcsf silk start, hasn't worked right since introduced, give up on it bcsf and find something else that will work




sent while drinking tea's

 

[ferniesnow]

I would not say that Doug, in Whistler there are four areas to pay, three to buy passes, I am not against paying at all which is why i usually buy a pass to two of the areas, which is 300.00, if I want to go to Brandywine another pass would be 150.00. I also would say half the riders in the province don't belong to a club nor do they pay any fees since there are a ton of areas that don't collect, can't collect or are not worth collecting. If everyone bought a pass then there would be more money. This is not my plan but I think personally it is better to have everyone paying a 100-200 to ride anywhere in the province. This way we capture the names of everyone for more opportunity at the government level, numbers do matter. Plus is everyone had to pay then the numbers would be up so would the money, you could still choose where you want your club money to go and there still would be day fees for guys from out of province etc. This could also in the future cut down on work with not having to have people in booths collecting, many are volunteers but some are not....this is a cost that could eventually be eliminated. Regardless of your stance these surveys are good and if you don't want this it is an opportunity to write your local club board and make sure the know. I definately don't know all the good and bad, those are my thoughts. I would disagree that I am cheap, but I would love to just have a pass that allows me to ride the areas around my area for one price....maybe these could be area dependant...come to revy buy your all areas pass and go, in valemount the same and in whistler the same...just throwing it out there...

Most riders, like yourself, will pay to play. Others are looking to be able to ride throughout the province on a cheap pass. The BCSF wants and needs numbers. I don't think this is the way to go about increasing members (another well spoken dude mentioned this in an earlier post and I support that train of thought). The process will increase out of province members because they will buy a PMP instead of daily trail passes and thus be added as a paying member (the majority of provincial riders will join a club to support the area they ride and not buy a PMP). I'm a special old fart and get my club membership for $30. Why would I pay another $200 for a PMP? The dude who rides the willows and alders isn't going to buy a PMP. For the BCSF numbers to go up, there needs to be legislation and enforcement. The weak link here is the enforcement part of the process. The lower end of bureaucracy is so minimal now that there are no foot walkers around to enforce anything. I can't see the legislation process kicking in any time soon. With the implementation of the compulsory registration, what was the percentage increase of riders in BC? Still minimal and the enforcement aspect of this process is a joke.

I agree, numbers need to rise and the BCSF needs money and bodies to champion the cause for snowmobiling. The mind set of sneaking past the trail vendors, not belonging to clubs, and not paying their way has to stop as it just adds fuel to the other side for more and more closures. If we could do it like they do it in the USA and quit thinking about how they do in it Eastern Canada, we might get somewhere.

 

[Lund]

I suspect that's the category you feel I fit in right Doug.
Riding on other peoples money. Cause of your comment on me.

 

[Bnorth]

I would like to hear from Richard and Donegal what they see as being the solution (or at least the process) to growing snowmobiling area access in BC. What is needed to present a case govt will listen too? Is it more lobbyists? How much funding is needed to properly combat the green movement and anti anything crowd? How do we get areas back from caribou closure and other user groups without exclusive use tenures?

 

[firstdoo]

Done, I like the idea of a Province wide pass in BC, but clubs would still need to charge day rates for those only doing a weekend or two a year.

 

[ferniesnow]

I suspect that's the category you feel I fit in right Doug.
Riding on other peoples money. Cause of your comment on me.

So i went over my cost last season for sledding in BC in trail passes and membership as i record every ride on my calendar.
This is for ONE sled only.
Hunters Range membership fee $170, 6 rides
Owls head.............................$20, 6 rides
Grey Stokes...........................$20, 3 rides
Revy....................................$20, 4 rides
Eagles..................................$20, 3 rides
Blue lake...............................$20, 2 rides
10K......................................$20, 1 ride
Ice fields...............................$20, 2 rides
Trout lake..............................$20, 1 ride

That is 23 rides with a $20 trail fee for $460 for one sled added to my Hunters primary rider fee of $170.
$630 for me to ride last season, this is not including my wifes fees. So her Hunters membership is $120, otherwise X2 for everything else.

I'm at a point that sledding is becoming too expensive and i'm not the only one that says that. Many are leaving the sport all together because of the cost or not buying into it with memberships. MAJORITY of riders i know ride multiple places. Only a few i know like Tex ride the same place.

Mike you said it, I didn't.

So itemizing the money that you said you spent last year, you would in the future prefer to spend between $150-$200 on a PMP. Who is going to pick up the rest of the monies? I just feel if we want to ride, we have to pay. If we want to get membership in the BCSF increased, there might be a better way.

 

[tex78]

I would like to hear from Richard and Donegal what they see as being the solution (or at least the process) to growing snowmobiling area access in BC. What is needed to present a case govt will listen too? Is it more lobbyists? How much funding is needed to properly combat the green movement and anti anything crowd? How do we get areas back from caribou closure and other user groups without exclusive use tenures?

Yes there we go, spend our money before ya get a chance to get it and tell us a thing or 2

sent while drinking tea's

 

[snopro]

People need to quit looking at the cost of a pass as being the end all for them to ride or not. Look at it as an investment in the future of your sport and to a lesser being the future of your chosen riding area. I personally have no use for trail vendor dodgers who only think of themselves. We as a group have good intentions but the bottom line is we need to weed out the bad actors and force them to pay. It kills me guys will cry about a $25 day pass but go to an Oiler or Flames game, drop a hun on $8 beers and not think anything of it? You got bombed at the game, spent half the night tripping your way to the bathroom 6-7 times for 3 hours of entertainment? $25 gets you a day of entertainment in the back country or $180 a year of memories? Time to band together boys or we are going to lose what we cherish most, access to the backcountry.

 

[Lund]

Mike you said it, I didn't.

So itemizing the money that you said you spent last year, you would in the future prefer to spend between $150-$200 on a PMP. Who is going to pick up the rest of the monies? I just feel if we want to ride, we have to pay. If we want to get membership in the BCSF increased, there might be a better way.

LOL, just like Narona, i pay my way. Have been for years. Been involved in clubs longer then you think, you speculate without the details of knowing me.
Every year i have paid to support the local club, plus pay the user fee at what ever riding area i might visit so your blowing BS.
I would think you would know me better then that, after 5 years of putting on and organizing the Dootalk ride, all for free plus all the entertainment that you guys enjoyed. And i know for some it was the first time riding back country. Been sledding and guiding long enough i know new riders from experienced riders, its pretty hard to hide. That was my job, keep you safe. Think what ever you want this is a waste of my time, i like the direction of BCSF is going. i'm done with the thread hope they figure it out.

I love the lack of appreciation, no wonder KB told me no more.

 

[HotShotHarry]

Really Doug? Are you implying that Mike doesn't want to pay his fair share? Seems to me, he does more to contribute than most ever will.....

 

[ferniesnow]

Really Doug? Are you implying that Mike doesn't want to pay his fair share? Seems to me, he does more to contribute than most ever will.....

From the information he provided (he paid for the places he was riding) all I asked was "if he were to buy a PMP for $150-$200, where would all the other money come from. He spent $630.00. With the PMP in place and riding the same places that would be about $430 short if the PMP was $200. I can't see this working and the bigger clubs getting the same revenue they are now getting. Seems pretty simple to me that there won't be as much money generated if riders only have to forfeit $150-$200.

 

[tex78]

From the information he provided (he paid for the places he was riding) all I asked was "if he were to buy a PMP for $150-$200, where would all the other money come from. He spent $630.00. With the PMP in place and riding the same places that would be about $430 short if the PMP was $200. I can't see this working and the bigger clubs getting the same revenue they are now getting. Seems pretty simple to me that there won't be as much money generated if riders only have to forfeit $150-$200.

100 % correct

sent while drinking tea's

 

[HotShotHarry]

And you are right... there wouldn't be.. As I understand it, and I may be wrong,Is there would be a PMP plus a discounted trail pass required to ride managed areas which would make up the difference. The PMP would generate money and member numbers-re; the riders who use the back country but do not belong to any clubs or never ride managed areas. All riders would be required to buy a PMP. If this PMP cost is to high, all those non club and non managed area riders would balk at paying. Keep the cost reasonable and you would have less non compliant riders not contributing to the cause. There should still be a discounted trail pass required to ride managed areas therefore making up the difference. At least that's the way I think Mike is thinking, and I agree with him.