FALLOUT: Avalanche-Turbo March 13,2010

[Al "ley Cat"]

sorry for all the people hurt and deep sorrow for the 2 that passed away.I have looked a lot of threads and responds on snow and mud. It is time to stop pushing blame on people and suck it up !! I know this is a ; hobbie,recretion,fun times...... sleding in the moutians,looking at tracks under cornices,tracksgoing up long climbs.... We have to get the proper training!!!!!!!! Im a carp. and have to have ; Fall Protection, H2s alive,leadership for safety excellence,Health safety and environmetal,.......Its time to get basic standards for the back country sleding!It could aplly to all back country activetys. it seems to me all we are doing is bickering between each other and the media are feeding off it!!!!!!! . todays cartoon in the Edmonton sun is disrespectful !!! to all selders. I will not be buying the sun in the near future.

 

[Longhairfreak]

There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

Mother Nature.

 

[Pinner]

todays cartoon in the Edmonton sun is disrespectful !!! to all selders.

Link ? Post it.... Never mind, found it.

 

[sledhead2010]

The first step towards the solution is admitting the problem. You appear to be completely unwilling to do this. God help you on the mountain.

You prevent things like this by not high marking a steep slope with 3-4 feet of fresh snow. You avoid this by not parking at the bottom of an avy run out on a day of severe avy danger, especially when there have been other slides. These things were mistakes, poor judgement, all completely avoidable.

You can keep arguing this was an accident all month long if you like. Not facing the facts is only going to serve to put you into a similarly dangerous situation some day. Wising up and confronting it head on, would seem the better course of action.

The problem here as I see it is, you read quickly through what I wrote, gleaned what you wanted to see from it and then posted. In second thought your rant is also good example of how to take things out of context and twist them around like the media has so well in covering this tragedy.

Here is what I wrote again, but expanded upon and in some cases an link or event is a mistake or misjudgement one some ones part;

Most likely if any of the links in the chain had been broken, they would still be alive.
My read on the links in the chain that lead to this accident are;
(1) Lack of organized and controlled events hill climb events in B.C. providing a safe outlet for this type of activity. Controlled and organized events would allow an outlet for this type of activity in a much safer manner. To me this is a mistake. Between the snowmobiling community and the government something can be done.
(2) The weather and unstable snow conditions. It was a bad year for snow conditions and what base there is/was, was without a doubt unstable, further evidenced by CAC warnings. This is a link or event as mankind has no control over mother nature.
(3) The Big Iron Shoot Out (Testosterone, Adrenaline and Horsepower)
For example, how many smoke shows do you see on the public roads leaving the gates after a drag race? These three items Testosterone, Adrenaline and Horsepower in general lead to a complete collapse of the male mind for rational and sensible thought. The Big Iron Shoot Out is/was an organized unsanctioned annual event.
(4) Promoter working the crowd up even more with comments during the action. Hmmm… lets see who does have the biggest ball’s on the hill. That his job, but it is an event that leads to more Adrenaline that pumps one up and once again releases the male mind of rational and sensible thought.
(5) People deciding to carry on to Turbo Hill @ 3:00 pm after the event. Prime tIme for avy’s, not they cannot happen at any time of the day or night. The day gets warm the snow melts and gets heavy, not a good thing on top of weak persitant layers,
(6) People stopping and parking at the bottom of the hill./This goes without saying, whether it’s an avalanche or ghosting sled you do not want to be in the way or path
(7) First person who decided to try and climb Turbo Hill. This cleared the way for the next attempt making it okay for every one else. Clearly the conditions where not safe, but with pack mentatlity once the first person did it so could every one else.
(8) One of the victims getting stuck on the hill. Event
(9) The next person to climb the hill with the victim stuck. This again made it okay for more people to climb the hill. This was a huge mistake, when someone is stuck every one stays clear until they are down. The really sad part it was not just one person climbing up the hill after he was stuck but multiple people
(10) Last person to climb the hill, before the avy. Most likely the trigger of the avalanche.
I'm sure there are more links in the chain that could be added with some thought.
Instead of debating semantics, snowmobilers need to break down what happened and why and come up with solutions to keep this from happening again.
Like I mentioned above solutions need to be found, signage only goes so far first someone has to actually read it before it will do any good, but maybe signage similar to forest fire ratings at staging areas would help. An outlet like terrain parks where the avalanche danger could be controlled maybe another option. Regular sanctioned events would probably also help. Education and training would also help but from the pictures I have seen it would appear that a lot of the people there knew how to use their equipment so from my point of view education and training seems to only go so far. Like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. But from what I have found there does not appear to be formalized safety training for mountain riders, maybe this is something else that should be considered. Training could be on items such as only one rider on the hill at a time, and self extraction techniques so other riders in a group would be less inclined to so called go up the hill and help.

 

[SLEDBUNNYRACING]

1. 
   [1]No swearing.
   
   [2]No personal attacks/slander/threats etc.
   
   [3]If your commenting try and have your facts right.
   
   [4]If you comment then you must accept that others will want to respond to that comment.
   
   [5]Try not to take those comments as a personal attack.
   
   [6]Remember that not all sledders agree/disagree with riding in the mountains when the risk is elevated, please attempt not to put all Alberta and British Columbia sledders into one group.
   • No attacking the Moderators for "doing their job"

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

Great, just what we need. I would be careful what you wish for or the nanny state will make training, testing, licensing mandatory and expensive before you know it, all in the name of saving lives. Lives that would have not been in jepordy if people had simply used their brains.

 

[john c]

Re: There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

Mother Nature.

And here in lies the problem. Wrong. Mother nature is never to blame. Those that do not respect her then turn and blame her when she bites back. Weak. Mother nature always gives us clues, it is our choice whether to read them or not. In this case the clues were more than obvious and we did not respect them or heed the warnings. Time to get in a cooperative mindset with what the conditions are vs. a domination mindset. Take what she gives you and nothing more. If the report is saying high, then ride the meadows. Anything other is either arrogance or ignorance. Mother nature was screaming as loud as she could from the rooftop and we chose not to listen. If this image from the day before doesn't give one pause to consider their terrain then what will?

 

[Scotty]

I have'nt posted on S&M in a long time, way too long. I have been watching and reading a LOT lately here, since the Revy tragedy specifically.

First and foremost.... my heartfelt sympathies go out the families of the victims, and praise to those who reacted to save who they could under such horrible circumstances. God Bless you all.

Secondly, My first reaction to the News of Revy tragedy was "Oh crap, an other bash against us sledders, like we need more negative press". As the news poured in I quikly cared more about the tragedy then the whole Snowmobiler thing. People first, families, thats the most important thing... above all Sports.

Thirdly, I have carefully read all the posts on this thread.... lots of good compassionate people here that care about the people that were directly effected by the tragedy that day.... there are also a few who ONLY care about how this tragedy effects them and their future / present access to riding areas etc. I get it... but... Now is not the time to diss the victoms by calling them names or saying they deserved what they got. We all make mistakes... even those of us who think we know it all. Please respect the families of those who are suffering right now, they just might be reading all of this.

 

[Maclintock]

Re: There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

And here in lies the problem. Wrong. Mother nature is never to blame. Those that do not respect her then turn and blame her when she bites back. Weak. Mother nature always gives us clues, it is our choice whether to read them or not. In this case the clues were more than obvious and we did not respect them or heed the warnings. Time to get in a cooperative mindset with what the conditions are vs. a domination mindset. Take what she gives you and nothing more. If the report is saying high, then ride the meadows. Anything other is either arrogance or ignorance. Mother nature was screaming as loud as she could from the rooftop and we chose not to listen. If this image from the day before doesn't give one pause to consider their terrain then what will?

That is an amazing picture isn't it!!!!!!!

Scary

 

[Al "ley Cat"]

Re: There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

Mother Nature.

How old are you ?

 

[Scotty]

Re: There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

And here in lies the problem. Wrong. Mother nature is never to blame. Those that do not respect her then turn and blame her when she bites back. Weak. Mother nature always gives us clues, it is our choice whether to read them or not. In this case the clues were more than obvious and we did not respect them or heed the warnings. Time to get in a cooperative mindset with what the conditions are vs. a domination mindset. Take what she gives you and nothing more. If the report is saying high, then ride the meadows. Anything other is either arrogance or ignorance. Mother nature was screaming as loud as she could from the rooftop and we chose not to listen. If this image from the day before doesn't give one pause to consider their terrain then what will?

Thats quite the picture.... My bet is that not one of the hundreds of people at the hill got a chance to see it? You posted it today.... did you see it the day before? on Friday?

 

[Maclintock]

Re: There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

Thats quite the picture.... My bet is that not one of the hundreds of people at the hill got a chance to see it? You posted it today.... did you see it the day before? on Friday?

I didn't see it the day before, but I looked at the snow report on Thursday and the Avy report and decided to stay away from the area all together.

It is up to every individual to look after themselves and make decisions for themselves and any minors they have control over.

I have a few friends who went to revy over the weekend and both went to frisbee when they heard the BIS was on saturday. They thought it would be way too busy, so they went to Frisbee and played in the trees. They made their decision after looking at reports and wanting to stay away from the crowds.

It is up to anyone to do what they want to do. I am sure even if people saw that picture they would still have gone to the Turbo Chute.

People do not want to be told what to do ( Lots anyways), as you can see by a lot of comments on this forum.

Lots of people think they know it all and on the other hand lots actually do know a lot. I know guys that have been in the back country for years and were extremely experienced in Avy traing and how to read all conditions. A couple of them were killed in Avalanches.

This whole thing is very disturbing and yet we all argue and give our different views of who is to blame, or who is not and the media and Gov't suck etc, etc.

Again you and I are our own Boss in life. It us up to each of us to learn and use what we learn in all aspects of life. We have to use common sense, but we cannot tell each other what to do. We can make a suggestion that we hope a person will take notice of if we think we are right about a situation, but again it is just that ,,, a suggestion for them to think about. The Canadian Avy Centre makes suggestions every week and 3-4 days or when fresh storm cycles arrive. Currently it is up to us to check them out and to pass them on to our friends and family if we play in these areas.

The Government has let everyone play for a very long time in the Backcountry in BC and hoped we all use or used common sense when making decisions whether or not to play due to bad conditions, or to play in
safer places where the conditions are better.

I guess now they will make most of the decisions for us.

 

[Iron Horse Racing]

Re: There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

There is only 1 person to blame on the Revy avalanche.

Mother Nature.

MOTHER NATURE ?????

She went quietly about leaving signs everywhere, until she got pissed off because too many people ignored the signs....

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

I have'nt posted on S&M in a long time, way too long. I have been watching and reading a LOT lately here, since the Revy tragedy specifically.

First and foremost.... my heartfelt sympathies go out the families of the victoms, and praise to those who reacted to save who they could under such horrible circumstances. God Bless you all.

Secondly, My first reaction to the News of Revy tragedy was "Oh crap, an other bash against us sledders, like we need more negative press". As the news poured in I quikly cared more about the tragedy then the whole Snowmobiler thing. People first, families, thats the most important thing... above all Sports.

Thirdly, I have carefully read all the posts on this thread.... lots of good compassionate people here that care about the people that were directly effected by the tragedy that day.... there are also a few who ONLY care about how this tragedy effects them and their future / present access to riding areas etc. I get it... but... Now is not the time to diss the victoms by calling them names or saying they deserved what they got. We all make mistakes... even those of us who think we know it all. Please respect the families of those who are suffering right now, they just might be reading all of this.

Scotty,

There is already another thread SPECIFICALLY for condolences. This one is about the FALLOUT from the incident, hence the title of the thread.

The fallout from this incident directly effects the rest of the sledding community in the future, that is the topic at hand. You seem unhappy with my choice to stay on topic in this thread, I am not sure why.

You, and the other bleeding hearts are trying to minimize the gross blunders committed that day. It is unfortunate that some died. Like it or not, I am of the firm opinion that they died by their own hands given the circumstances. HUNDREDS of people made the right choice and didn't go to turbo, or high mark it in EXTREMELY dangerous conditions, or sit at the bottom of an avy chute.

More people will die like this if we continue to insist on trying to sugar coat this in the name of compassion. There is a place for compassion, there is a place for the cold hard reality of all of this. There is room for both. If YOU are not ready for the fallout, the best place for you is the condolences thread. Just sayin...

 

[Scotty]

And here in lies the problem. Wrong. Mother nature is never to blame. Those that do not respect her then turn and blame her when she bites back. Weak. Mother nature always gives us clues, it is our choice whether to read them or not. In this case the clues were more than obvious and we did not respect them or heed the warnings. Time to get in a cooperative mindset with what the conditions are vs. a domination mindset. Take what she gives you and nothing more. If the report is saying high, then ride the meadows. Anything other is either arrogance or ignorance. Mother nature was screaming as loud as she could from the rooftop and we chose not to listen. If this image from the day before doesn't give one pause to consider their terrain then what will?

Scotty,

There is already another thread SPECIFICALLY for condolences. This one is about the FALLOUT from the incident, hence the title of the thread.
The fallout from this incident directly effects the rest of the sledding community in the future, that is the topic at hand. You seem unhappy with my choice to stay on topic in this thread, I am not sure why.

You, and the other bleeding hearts are trying to minimize the gross blunders committed that day. It is unfortunate that some died. Like it or not, I am of the firm opinion that they died by their own hands given the circumstances. HUNDREDS of people made the right choice and didn't go to turbo, or high mark it in EXTREMELY dangerous conditions, or sit at the bottom of an avy chute.

More people will die like this if we continue to insist on trying to sugar coat this in the name of compassion. There is a place for compassion, there is a place for the cold hard reality of all of this. There is room for both. If YOU are not ready for the fallout, the best place for you is the condolences thread. Just sayin...

Thanks for pointing out the condolence thread.... I would have never noticed if it were not for you??? HENCE my response. Stop condemming everyone who suffered that day. Enough already. Your cause is nobel... just consider the victims.

 

[mt.sledder]

Our tools are already all avaliable to avoid these situations. We have all the following at our disposal.

1)avalanche forecasts
2)avalanche training
3)beacons, probes, shovels and avy backpacks
4)the ability to analyse data
5)friends we ride with to help make decisions

Everyone has a different level they take things to, in order to enjoy a day in the mountains. For some thats just a simple ride up the trail to the cabin for one of Herbies burgers, others like to blast through the powder, some like the trees, others like to climb some. Then there are the guys that can put on a show that everyone wishes they had the balls and sled to do. These guy's, and at times I have to include myself in that group feel the desire to perform for the crowds and just can't resist it. I would almost bet that all the guy's that took a poke at turbo that day heard that voice in their head telling them it was a bad idea. In the past I've heard it and went anyways, I've looked over my shoulder on the way up and also on the way down. This was followed by what the hell was I thinking and smarten up you idiot.

Like I said above, we already have access to everything we need, we just need to use the thing between our ears for what it's meant to do. If your willing to take a risk with your own life to make a big pull on a sketchy hill, think about the responsibility you have to the guy's below, at the least you should tell them to look out. Maybe you'll get lucky and they will talk you out of it.

 

[Alberta Boy]

Thanks Maxwell... man is that tough to watch! I feel the pain for these guys!!!

 

[maxwell]

oops meant to post this

 

[Scotty]

Now stick "Easily Avoidable" in front of that and you have what we saw on Turbo that day.

Easy for you to say.... you were'nt there.

 

[stuckenough]

He made a real valid point about penalizing people for there actions whether it be snowmobiling, sailing or even drivers who are involved in careless accidents. Certainly caution should be taken when you get behind the wheel of any motorized vehicle, but accidents happen and that's just the way it's going to be...all the legislation in the world is not going to prevent tragedy from occurring.