FALLOUT: Avalanche-Turbo March 13,2010

[Caper11]

Great post!!!!

 

[snoqueen]

Lori, thank you so much for this post!! Having taken your course in January I know it has opened my eyes up so much more when we head out to the mountains. I hope this tragedy will make more sledders want to take the AST 1.

 

[flying frenchman]

Great post. Some poeple don't know that avalanche courses are available till someone tell them that they took a course about it.Then they ask were to get info. I took my training course as well as my 10 riding buddys. Wow!! Sure was an eye opener for us all. We used to look at hills and kind of make our own decisions. But after taking this great course we sure learned alot. Thanks for having such a great course available to the public . We do make mistakes as no one is perfect , but if training is available and poeple learn about these courses then maybe we can lessen the chance of being caught in an avalanche .I know for sure that I now look at the mountains in a very different way.

 

[Flange99]

I also posted this on SW.

Thanks Lori.

Your training has changed the way I ride and the way our group rides. I have more fun now than I ever had before. Your training has given me and the friends in my group the ability and confindence to ride in some of the most extreme avy conditions and yet maintain safe riding habits. Extreme avy conditions typically means there is tons of fresh snow which makes for some incredible riding and its your training and awareness that has helped our group do it right and enjoy the backcountry. You and Randy provide a life saving service and I take every opportunity to promote it. Please keep it up!

Darren

 

[teamti]

I'd have trouble arguing with most of what is in this column

x3.

... and what RedMtnRiders said. The time to ask these tough questions is NOW when its fresh in the mind.

 

[buck50]

Again, you are trying to equate accidents with seriously bad decisions. I never said the heli ski guys weren't boneheads, maybe they were, what were the circumstances? The kids on the trip, freak accident right? Quite a bit different than a bunch of testosterone fuled guys shooting up a huge avy chute during extreme avy danger. CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCES? Or should I put the whole thing in caps for you?

soooooo, that's an accident that those kids died, even though the avy danger was high, and they were woefully underprepared to be there in those conditions??? i've seen you post before that ANY people caught in an avy, it wasn't an accident, somebody fugged up! same holds true for those kids too then! or how about a family that gets killed on the highway when the weather is bad and road condtions are horrible. they CHOSE to be out there, were they boneheads and deserved too die??????

 

[teamti]

haha.common

so guys like dan davidoff ( knows more about the backcountry than you sorry) and other sledding professionals who were there are clowns? give me a break.

I was really sorry to hear he was there. I was really sorry to hear that another avalanche instructor was also there. They should have known better. They made a mistake (the fact that they were there and involved in an avalanche in itself, means a mistake was made). If you think otherwise and think that this was just an "Act of God" or an "accident" or "a freak of nature" then you really really need to take a good honest look at your ability to assess risk critically.

Having said that, they both did a fine job coordinating the search effort and probe line by all accounts so props for that.

 

[john c]

Good post. That would have made it a 6 on the avaluator. The only reason not a 7 was maybe not a new input of rain, warm air, sun. Although that could be argued cuz the storm snow was much warmer than the old layers. So a 6 pushing a 7 on the avie evaluator for dummies. Well into the don't go range.... Anyone want to still argue that this was an accident and not a mistake? Terrain selection. This doesn't mean you can't ride. Just don't go highmarking 4o plus degree terrain. PS. I would argue that no snowmobiler is an expert in avalanches. This sceince takes 20 or 30 years to really be an expert. Biles have only begun hitting high angle terrain in the last ten. So unless someone was skiing or boarding for ten plus years prior to getting their sled then they ain't an expert..... Humble in the face of power much greater than the 900cc that sits between your legs. Many learned this last weekend and many more need to. But their is no need for our community to be stumbling around dazed with the stench of death haunting the air to be taught this lesson. Respect for the mountains is your best bet to get home to your kids.

 

[maxwell]

I was really sorry to hear he was there. I was really sorry to hear that another avalanche instructor was also there. They should have known better. They made a mistake (the fact that they were there and involved in an avalanche in itself, means a mistake was made). If you think otherwise and think that this was just an "Act of God" or an "accident" or "a freak of nature" then you really really need to take a good honest look at your ability to assess risk critically.

Having said that, they both did a fine job coordinating the search effort and probe line by all accounts so props for that.

thats what im getting at calling someone(s) who coordinated a search effort a clown might be a little harsh. mistake...yep

 

[retro]

Thanks Lori for your thoughtful post. It will be clear heads and passion for winter recreation that ensures the best comes of out of this time of grief and learning. My condolences to those who lost loved ones and friends. Best wishes to all those who are recovering.

 

[CUSO]

soooooo, that's an accident that those kids died, even though the avy danger was high, and they were woefully underprepared to be there in those conditions??? i've seen you post before that ANY people caught in an avy, it wasn't an accident, somebody fugged up! same holds true for those kids too then! or how about a family that gets killed on the highway when the weather is bad and road condtions are horrible. they CHOSE to be out there, were they boneheads and deserved too die??????

Holy crap, let it go already! Ever hear the term nailing jello to a tree??

Lori, thanks for the post. It is worth it's weight in gold.
You can bring a shovel, probe, beakon, avy bag, those are great tools, but your best tool is your brain. Take an AST-1 course.

 

[teamti]

The whole rating system was changed after that accident. The snow pack and conditions were very similar.

I didn't want to get into too much detail on this because I just don't want see the relevance of you bringing this up.

1. They weren't professionally guided. They were with their teachers. Having said that having a guide doesn't give you a magic avalanche force-field detector so I don't know why you mentioned the wrong data that the kids had a guide or even the relevance of a guide.

2. Turbo was a NE facing slope. The start zone was at about 2400m or so. The slope angle was 37 degrees almost uniformly with a bench at about 1900 m then the deposit overrunning the bench by about 150m and burying the bench where people were standing. STS is a NNE (very close to N) with a start zone at about 2600m and a terrain trap (no bench) called Connaught Crk at about 1500m. That's what killed those kids - the debris pile was much much bigger because it caught in the creeks - they were dead from trauma for the most part.

I've skied both STS and sledded Turbo. STS is much much scarier - side note.


3. Rating for Turbo was HIGH - the highest level from Alpine/Subalpine/Treeline. Rating for STS/Connaught Creek was CONSIDERABLE in Alpine/Considerable Subalpine and Moderate at Treeline.

4. What killed the two sledders in Turbo were other sledders. This was human-triggered. Sorry - I know its harsh but its just the facts. What killed the kids in Connaught was a cornice trigger. Cornice failed, slide ran downslope, overran the Creek and ran into their uptrack.

So again, lets just drop it. There's no point in bringing in other users. This is the sledding communities problem. Let's deal with it. All this talk about responsibility, lets actually take some responsibility./

 

[teamti]

soooooo, that's an accident that those kids died, even though the avy danger was high, and they were woefully underprepared to be there in those conditions??? i've seen you post before that ANY people caught in an avy, it wasn't an accident, somebody fugged up! same holds true for those kids too then! or how about a family that gets killed on the highway when the weather is bad and road condtions are horrible. they CHOSE to be out there, were they boneheads and deserved too die??????

Again. It's irrelevant. Why are you guys bringing the STS incident into this? Yes the teachers who brought the kids to Connaught Creek make a mistake. No they didn't deserve to die. But they still died. The point is to LEARN from the mistake - not make the same mistake again and again.

Let me tell you something. When someone is killed by an avalanche, they lose arms, legs, heads. Its not pretty. So don't start with this head in the sand bs or point finger at ski tourers. Because its got NOTHING to do with this situation.

For gods sakes, look beyond the over-the-top charged language that some critics like RedMtnRider and the assclown columnists use and try to figure out how to learn so we don't pull more bodies out of the snow.

EDIT - when I say YOU, I don't mean you, buck50. I know everyone's emotions are running high and its hard to take a step back and take a sober second look but now is the time to really think hard.

 

[CUSO]

3. Rating for Turbo was EXTREME - the highest level from Alpine/Subalpine/Treeline. Rating for STS/Connaught Creek was CONSIDERABLE in Alpine/Considerable Subalpine and Moderate at Treeline.

/

So many people say the forecast was extreme is this the same as the rating? The forecast for Saturday was at high for the North Columbia.
In the last 3 seasons, I don't ever recall an extreme forecast issued by the CAC, in any region.... and I am on their e-mail list for updates.

 

[teamti]

actually, most, if not all, the people were already found before SAR got there. if they hadn't been, the fatalities would have been much higher. not saying that SAR didn't do a great job, but so did the people on site. also, the whole avy warnings is bothering me. has anyone here ever ridden in BC and not had the warnings be at least consireable or high even. i've never been to golden or revy with anything less than considerable, but usually it's high. and i've ridden most of the areas in all different conditions and times of year. it just seems to me that the avy risk is ALWAYS elevated, not just on this particular weekend, but pretty all of them

You can check the CAA site for the exact stats but here's my recollection of the spread for the Selkirks. this is for the alpine/subalpine and for all days - not just weekends

Low - about 30% of time
Moderate - about 35% of time
Considerable - about 25% of time
High - about 15% of time
Extreme - about 5% of time

Most weekenders and those with a short riding season tend to think the avalanche forecast is usually considerable/high because it tends to be more like that around peak riding season. Low/Moderate is pretty common in early and late season

 

[teamti]

So many people say the forecast was extreme is this the same as the rating? The forecast for Saturday was at high for the North Columbia.
In the last 3 seasons, I don't ever recall an extreme forecast issued by the CAC, in any region.... and I am on their e-mail list for updates.

The CAC doesn't issue a lot of EXTREME ratings yup.

Here's the danger scale

Avalanche Danger Scale : Bulletins : Canadian Avalanche Centre : avalanche.ca

In a profile I had in a test pit on a NE slope I found FIVE distinct weak layers. All of them were weak (clean shears if you want to be snow geek). That's terrible. The worst I've seen in 22 years of riding. So I have to agree with the CAC rating which actually was High.

 

[CUSO]

CAC report on Friday, for that weekend.

 

[teamti]

Yeah - I gotta agree with this one - for someone to state that they only ride in MAJOR avy terrain and then say they go out when conditions are bad but only ride "safe" stuff....sounds like counter-logic? That's kinda like saying sky divers only jump when the sky is safe to do so, but it might not be the sky that kills them, its the sudden stop at the bottom of the freefall (even if they have all the proper gear)....You stated that you wouldn't have been highmarking when the conditions were so extreme - but someone with comprehensive avy training should be aware that even riding in "safe" areas of major extreme avy terrain does not require you to be highmarking to get into trouble. A major avy runout can catch you off guard in your "safe" areas. I'm sure a lot of the spectators that got caught thought they were in a "safe" area too, not unlike yourself......overconfidence can be a great bedfellow...or a cruel mistress.

It's entirely possible to go out in "Major" avy terrain and be safe even in hair-trigger terrain.

For example, I had to go out in that storm and collect data. I knew the winds were coming in SW. I had to get to a representative slope at about 2000m to get to the station for data. We've put a trail in already through mature timber to get there. I know what that terrain is like because I've hiked it and atv'ed in summer. So i know that i'm not in a runout.

Got to the station collected my data then turned back. Took a bunch of ridges out; played a bit in the new snow. There's a pillow zone thats SE facing that i could play around in on the way back (sorry no pics). Its well anchored - ie about 15 - 20 degrees steep so pretty tame. Played around in that; then looped back to the trail and out to dry out.

This is all around the Mica area - which I'm sure you'd agree isn't Saskatchewan./ Just giving you an idea of what to do since you asked - hope it doesn't sound like bragging because its just a routine day.

Terrain is always the answer.

 

[sledslut]

Lori, thanks for the post. appreciate the time spent to post that.

thanks again!!

 

[buck50]

Again. It's irrelevant. Why are you guys bringing the STS incident into this? Yes the teachers who brought the kids to Connaught Creek make a mistake. No they didn't deserve to die. But they still died. The point is to LEARN from the mistake - not make the same mistake again and again.

Let me tell you something. When someone is killed by an avalanche, they lose arms, legs, heads. Its not pretty. So don't start with this head in the sand bs or point finger at ski tourers. Because its got NOTHING to do with this situation.

For gods sakes, look beyond the over-the-top charged language that some critics like RedMtnRider and the assclown columnists use and try to figure out how to learn so we don't pull more bodies out of the snow.

EDIT - when I say YOU, I don't mean you, buck50. I know everyone's emotions are running high and its hard to take a step back and take a sober second look but now is the time to really think hard.

i was just trying to ask OT, errr red mtn rider why there is a difference in HIS eyes. i agree, mistakes were made and everyone needs to learn from that, but that particular poster has a past off this very same kind of inflammatory dribble anytime something happens