4 Stroke or nothing

0neoldfart

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Pretty sure the plastics interchange and they are the same width. Does the Sidewinder have the LED headlights that the King has? It does look as though the hoods are a bit different, as are the intercooler grilles. I see the MTX also has the QS3 front shocks, my King has Evols like Panzerdog’s
 
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Lund

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What do you think is causing Winder belt breakage?
I have not held a Winder clutch in my hand so I have no experience with them other than two of my buddies ride them.

The number one reason i believe is they are clutch too light and wrong profile. The MTX in our riding elevation's can easily be clutched heavier to take advantage of the power it makes.
These engine make gobs of power and torque but imo with the current setup they don't keep a good hold on the belt. They slip and get hot, Yamaha clutches generally don't run that hot if all is working properly.
I know you won't agree but that's ok, it makes things interesting..
 

kanedog

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Kanedog 2015-2019, thanks for the good times S&M!
I agree the Winder clutching runs hot which means loss of horsepower. It seems like the power is there but not getting to the track.
I don't think the slipping is causing the belts to snap tho. They snap when not at full throttle so something is amiss. It would be cool to find out what is causing it.
I may have a Paragon secondary for a Yamaha Winder this year. It's not for sale but I'd really like to see it in a side x side comparo between two Winders. If you know of someone willing to try, lemme know.
 

Lund

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I agree the Winder clutching runs hot which means loss of horsepower. It seems like the power is there but not getting to the track.
I don't think the slipping is causing the belts to snap tho. They snap when not at full throttle so something is amiss. It would be cool to find out what is causing it.
I may have a Paragon secondary for a Yamaha Winder this year. It's not for sale but I'd really like to see it in a side x side comparo between two Winders. If you know of someone willing to try, lemme know.

The interesting part of this is my clutches don't run hot, even after some good pull's. Yes they get hot as expected but you can actually put your hand on them without getting burnt. That's not the case from what i hear with guys blowing belts.
But i don't run the MTX clutch tuning either.
 

0neoldfart

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Personally I think some of the belt blowing you hear about is due to how it’s ridden. 0ne thing I can attest to is that you ride a 4S turbo differently then a 2S. Chopping the throttle (and conversely hammering it) makes for some significant shock loading on the belt. I’ve seen belts contact both the belt guard and the brake caliber cover on the proclimb chassis, and I’ve seen belts that were a bit short due to manufacturing differences (even OEM). If the sled is a persistent belt eater, my 1st suggestion would be to check c to c distance, and as Lund stated, the clutching can use a better calibration. (Don’t get me wrong, it’s pretty good for a stock sled, but there is always room for improvement).
 

Lund

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Personally I think some of the belt blowing you hear about is due to how it’s ridden. 0ne thing I can attest to is that you ride a 4S turbo differently then a 2S. Chopping the throttle (and conversely hammering it) makes for some significant shock loading on the belt. I’ve seen belts contact both the belt guard and the brake caliber cover on the proclimb chassis, and I’ve seen belts that were a bit short due to manufacturing differences (even OEM). If the sled is a persistent belt eater, my 1st suggestion would be to check c to c distance, and as Lund stated, the clutching can use a better calibration. (Don’t get me wrong, it’s pretty good for a stock sled, but there is always room for improvement).

I agree 100%, i've actually seen a belt blow over the top of the primary. I've also seen belts hit the belt guard and completely shred.
Throttle chopping is old school with carbureted 2 strokes, the theory behind it was to keep the air/fuel ratio on the rich side at low elevation to help prevent lean burn. The problem with this theory is sled carb's have no accelerator pumps, it was backyard auto mechanics bringing their ideas into the sport as automotive carbs have acelerator pumps. So throttle chopping did nothing for fuel ratio on sled's....LOL
The tradition has work to today's rider's with the EFI sled's.....even more laughable and its a bit of a joke. Throttle chop a 4 stroke and you be buying a belt sooner then later.
4 stroke's like steady progressive throttle, even on big climbs.
 

0neoldfart

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So what your saying is don’t blurp the throttle on climbs, just hold it WOT keep smooth throttle movements?
Throttle control is huge. “Rolling” on the flipper will result in the sled climbing on top of the snow, instead of trenching in with the abundance of trackspeed available on a boosted 4 stroke. Realistically the biggest thing I’ve learned is you have to ride much father ahead of the sled, as the ground speed is higher, meaning you have less time to react. You cam control ski lift and ground speed much easier on the 4S, as letting off the gas on MOST average hills doesn’t result in being planted on the hill face if you can master finesse of the flipper. Most guys I know that hop on a boosted 4S and ride for 10 min cannot grasp that right away, and end up bitching about lazy throttle response & the weight of the sled, and that it throws them around. ( I switched a guy to 4S this past season, but only after he rode it two days in a row, his comment was that it actually took LESS effort after he learned how to control it). Ride one for a whole day easing into the throttle, and you’ll find you don’t get stuck nearly as often, and that you run out of hill pretty quick in most cases
 

Lund

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Throttle control is huge. “Rolling” on the flipper will result in the sled climbing on top of the snow, instead of trenching in with the abundance of trackspeed available on a boosted 4 stroke. Realistically the biggest thing I’ve learned is you have to ride much father ahead of the sled, as the ground speed is higher, meaning you have less time to react. You cam control ski lift and ground speed much easier on the 4S, as letting off the gas on MOST average hills doesn’t result in being planted on the hill face if you can master finesse of the flipper. Most guys I know that hop on a boosted 4S and ride for 10 min cannot grasp that right away, and end up bitching about lazy throttle response & the weight of the sled, and that it throws them around. ( I switched a guy to 4S this past season, but only after he rode it two days in a row, his comment was that it actually took LESS effort after he learned how to control it). Ride one for a whole day easing into the throttle, and you’ll find you don’t get stuck nearly as often, and that you run out of hill pretty quick in most cases

You truly know how too, on one of these. I don't read this stuff too often.
And agree 100%.
 

mudmania

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I pulled the trigger on a 17 XF9000 High Country ltd. Got a jaws can and mountain addiction gas can so far. Any issues or good mods for these rockets?
 

Kibbels

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I agree the Winder clutching runs hot which means loss of horsepower. It seems like the power is there but not getting to the track.
I don't think the slipping is causing the belts to snap tho. They snap when not at full throttle so something is amiss. It would be cool to find out what is causing it.
I may have a Paragon secondary for a Yamaha Winder this year. It's not for sale but I'd really like to see it in a side x side comparo between two Winders. If you know of someone willing to try, lemme know.

Hey I will volunteer !!!
 

Kibbels

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Here is the results of climbing out of Bull Pen and at top... was off rev limiter due to under weight. Fawk knocked the wind out of me with some minor bruising on the belly lol
Sorry camera angle ****ty...

 
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Lund

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Here is the results of climbing out of Bull Pen and at top... was off rev limiter due to under weight. Fawk knocked the wind out of me with some minor bruising on the belly lol
Sorry camera angle ****ty...

https://youtu.be/yhuGKVjGPrk

Hahaha....i know that feeling of the lay on the ground with wondering.. WTF just happen.
 

Kibbels

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Hahaha....i know that feeling of the lay on the ground with wondering.. WTF just happen.

Haha... yup!!! I couldn’t hold it do the bar cuz was off rev limiter as you hear it at near beginning of video. So as you hear it’s not reving it’s guts out cuz it would pop!!!
 

Lund

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Haha... yup!!! I couldn’t hold it do the bar cuz was off rev limiter as you hear it at near beginning of video. So as you hear it’s not reving it’s guts out cuz it would pop!!!

Yes i could hear that, sounded like it was struggling.

Still work in progress with clutching with your powerup.
I saw the video of you and Catman, did things change? I think Catman is stock tune correct?
 

Kibbels

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Yes i could hear that, sounded like it was struggling.

Still work in progress with clutching with your powerup.
I saw the video of you and Catman, did things change? I think Catman is stock tune correct?

yes I changed the night before to heavier weights... we both running Hurricane Tune. The 18 drop & roll rockets up and out quicker. He’s 174 and I’m still 162... I was only pulling 8500 and he was 8400 so 100 rpm between the 2 tracks.
 

Lund

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Heads up to anyone thinking or that have purchased one of OSP belt adjuster with float for their Sidewinder.
I have been in contact with them and are currently trying to resolve this problem in design. I recommend holding off till then.

OSP5.jpg OSP4.jpg OSP3.jpg OSP2.jpg OSP1.jpg OSP.jpg
 

Lund

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Found this on one of the Sidewinder groups on Facebook, guy was getting the SD-08 code so took apart the motor and found corrosion. Cleaned everything up and back to working good as new. Once I get back home ill be taking mine apart and having a look.

View attachment 214197

Heads up guy's i ran into this SD-08 code on my own SW yesterday. After a couple of simple check's, relay and switch. I pulled the actuator motor out and apart and same result. The commutator on the armature had corrosion. Quick clean and good to go.
A word of advice if you end up pulling your's apart. Be aware that the stator housing is directional, it incorporates a diode, "so mark it". If you install it wrong it will work in reverse to what it is suppose too.
To prevent this from happening again i saturated the armature with a product called "Penlub" it is specifically formulated for this application. I will post a picture of this product for those interested.

penlub1.jpg penlub.jpg
 
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