riders with no or minimal avi training

[imdoo'n]

Just pointing out the fact that some poeple are quick to jump on others regarding Avy training.... Most guys started out with no training then in time went to get it, some more willingly and timely than others.
But seems once some folks have it they are very quick to preach to those who don't, forgetting the fact that they themselves once rode without it.

I said in my post I will have the proper equipment and be with experienced riders but there are still those who will condemn me for not taking the training before I go....not pointing fingers just stating opinion based on past observations.

As far as the stupid decions and macho attitudes I doubt training would change the attitude of those individuals...

still not sure what your trying to say. maybe those with some training found out there was a lot of info to know. glad you have equipment, knowledgeable friends, maybe someone else may not be so lucky. avi training may save someones life and i think that is what it is all about, new rider or not.

 

[pano-dude]

my advise to newbies is to hire a guide( even experienced riders to a new area). It is worth every penny. The guide will ensure you stay out of trouble but still experience the good stuff.

Avy training is not a must but the gear is. $25 a day to rent a beacon, shovel and probe package at the Radium Esso.

 

[Pistonbroke]

Just pointing out the fact that some poeple are quick to jump on others regarding Avy training.... Most guys started out with no training then in time went to get it, some more willingly and timely than others.
But seems once some folks have it they are very quick to preach to those who don't, forgetting the fact that they themselves once rode without it.

I said in my post I will have the proper equipment and be with experienced riders but there are still those who will condemn me for not taking the training before I go....not pointing fingers just stating opinion based on past observations.

As far as the stupid decions and macho attitudes I doubt training would change the attitude of those individuals...

I predict that once you take the training - and I hope you do, you will be right on that same bandwagon. It's an unbelievable eye opener into the science of being safe in the back country. Dude, you are a smart enough guy to realize that knowledge is power and safety in the mountains.

I sure wish I had taken the training before my first day in the hills -turns out I have been unwittingly putting myself and others in more risk than necessary.....just sayin'

 

[Warhawk]

Well i just feel i have to say something here. I have been out of sledding for 4-5 years and in the years before (15 years experience) the conditions in Saskatchewan do not prepare you for the hills.

I have been to the mountians about 6-10 times and i will say that alot of people feel that it will never happen to them. or the group they are with . I have been in groups where guys felt they didn't need the GEAR. I can say i never felt very comfortable with them and have also never went to the hills with them since.

It only takes once and the way i look at it is what if it is me that has to tell my buddys wife and kids that we couldn't find him because we never had the GEAR or felt that it was to expensive. Not sure what that stuff is worth any more because i bought mine a long timeago but last i remember it was $15 for the beacon and 40 for shovel/prode. this was per day so just figure in an additional 150-200 dollars for a 3 day stay. Well worth a life in my eyes.
next time you question this ask your self if you need that TOP OF THE LINE BRAND NAME SET OF GLOVES OR SOME GOOD GLOVES AND avalanche GEAR

just my 2 cents

 

[Can-Do]

Did all of you take Avy training BEFORE your first trip to the mountains????

Listen I'm all for proper training and equipment ect.... but really. How many people have received avalanch training prior to their first trip??????????? maxwell did you? how about you amy? sledneck? Imdooin? Just askin....

I have never been to the hills, this year will be my first time, I will rent the required equipment, ride with experienced people and use common sense.
Will I take Avi training prior to going????? NO. why you ask???????

I don't have time (how much time is your life worth) I don't have the funds (you can afford a sled, you can afford the training) I'm not going to put myself into a situation where I'll need it (what about the people who might need your help) HEARD MEMBERS THROW THESE AT OTHERS TIME AND TIME AGAIN.......

My answer.... combination of all of the above, I'm lucky to get the opportunity to get away once this winter, my total investment in BOTH sleds is $5500....so no money is not "no object" to me. I will rely on the experience of those I'm with to guide me.

If I find myself in the position in the future to take the course and plan on riding the mountains regularly then you bet your azz I'll take the training....but by the same token I'm not going to pass up on the opportunity to experience riding the hills because I don't have avy training....

In a perfect world everyone would be trained, but a trained idiot is still an idiot..... there is no cure for stupid.....

So Yes I will be leaving my wife and 4 childern home this winter to go ride in Cooke city without proper training..... now you can tell me how much of an azzhole I am,

i understand where your coming from..and the answer is YES I did get the training before my first ride in the mountains...

 

[raceu4it]

curosity is killing me, (bad wording), but is there a stat of the last couple years fatalities, of those with or without avy courses?

 

[imdoo'n]

I will still ride with someone without training and avi equipment, and encourage them to get or rent it. i tell them what to do or not to do, if they still put my safety in danger it's adious amigo. if you will not get or learn how to use a beacon, i'm not going to even waste my time looking for you in an avi. call it cull the herd.

 

[imdoo'n]

curosity is killing me, (bad wording), but is there a stat of the last couple years fatalities, of those with or without avy courses?

not sure if that is what this is all about. there were avi's last year that caught a few with training and without. just don't need a repeat of last year, maybe a few hints as to what to look out for may save someones life. what do you think, tips or stats.

 

[teamgreen]

curosity is killing me, (bad wording), but is there a stat of the last couple years fatalities, of those with or without avy courses?

I know the stats of my business and doubt there is even an accurate number someone can give you of snowmobile deaths per year by avalanche. Possibly check with the folks at Welcome to avalanche.ca

sign me up please :d:d

Brandon MB, 0800 any day you want. People cry here all the time from instructor induced pain/humiliation

 

[sumx54]

Brandon MB, 0800 any day you want. People cry here all the time from instructor induced pain/humiliation

BwaHaHaHa!!! No Thanks, Shilo's a little far for me to go to see a grown man cry

 

[Bogger]

I realize im not one to preach about the training since i just got it but the training is not just for you its for the guys you ride with. you say your going to be riding with experienced guys what about when they get burried i guess there sh#t out of luck huh. hows that fair to them

They are well aware I'm going in green, I will be instructed on the use of the beacons prior to riding.

X2 .This is how i learned as well .But if i was out in the hills on a regular basis i would take the course ..

Agreed

still not sure what your trying to say. maybe those with some training found out there was a lot of info to know. glad you have equipment, knowledgeable friends, maybe someone else may not be so lucky. avi training may save someones life and i think that is what it is all about, new rider or not.

I'm not denying the training is valuable

I predict that once you take the training - and I hope you do, you will be right on that same bandwagon. It's an unbelievable eye opener into the science of being safe in the back country. Dude, you are a smart enough guy to realize that knowledge is power and safety in the mountains.
I sure wish I had taken the training before my first day in the hills -turns out I have been unwittingly putting myself and others in more risk than necessary.....just sayin'

If I end up riding the mountains on a regular basis I will get the training and until then will rely on knowledgable riding partners.

i understand where your coming from..and the answer is YES I did get the training before my first ride in the mountains...

You my freind may commence belittlement at your discression hats off to you, again I agree with getting the training and when the time comes I will.


The point of my comments to this thread were to add perspective from the other side of the arguement. I will be riding in Cooke and I will not have Avy training. Some will call me a fool, others will understand my position. I never once said I'm against the training hell I'm a Health and Safety Manager as a career, a big part of my job is training to keep people safe. I only stated that it is not always feesable. I commend the guys who have the training but that said I do not condemn those who don't.

 

[RaspberryNytro]

A friend of mine is going to golden or so with two guys after christmas........i dont know about the other guys but he has one year sledding in sask. he has a summit and all and he asked me to go. i said i dont know do you guys have packs, shovels, probes, transceivers? hes like no we arent going to do anything serious, just ride the powder and stay away from the big stuff.

im like you should still have that stuff and know how to use a transceiver.........like im no pro and ive never been to the mountains but ive learned alot reading on here and know the basics but there is no way im going with them.

the only thing ive kind of noticed is most newbies arnt brave enough to find real trouble. and its the experienced guys that go deep to where theres not alot of traffic and get into real trouble. a couple friends of mine that are newbies went to revy and i seen the pics and it looks like they road around the hilly feilds the whole time, the most mountains i seen where the pics from the highway and hotel.

Good for you Sledneck 03!!! Takes alot of guts to stand by your ideas & say no to a trip to the hills if worried about who you're riding with. Mind you, your ideas could also teach them if you decided to go with them. Nothing better in my opinion than taking newbies out there & helping them along:d
Years ago I had friends riding in Crowsnest Pass when there was a slide they came across. They had to help people dig out a guy who didn't make it cause he wasn't wearing his beacon. They still didn't get their avy chit the next day. makes a guy mad. Like said before......even if they don't climb hills when they go, they will end up sitting at the bottom of a climb watching others & will be a statistic!!!

 

[BC Sno-Ghost]

I did this on-line course last week and found it very helpful.

To this point this is the extent of my Avy Training. I know it doesn't replace a "Hands On Course" but until there is one offered closer to Kelowna it's going to be my only training. I carry the beacon, probe and shovel.... in a pack on my back. There's no doubt that everyone can benefit from an Avy Course, but......if people in the back country would just open their eyes a bit wider, be aware of their surroundings and potential situations and most importantly.....USE YOUR COMMON SENSEI believe there would be far less tragic incidents. I also have to ask the question to all of you who have an Avy Training course. Do you have the First Aid training to resuscitate and/or stabilize an avy victim? Digging out a buried victim is only the first step of the rescue process. Do you carry all the first aid supplies necessary to perform a resuscitation? Can you summon help from your location without leaving the victim? I'm not trying to be a Smart Ass but where does the preparedness end?

 

[JaySimon]

The thing about common sense is, it's not all that common.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable riding with someone who lacks the big 3 items. I don't want to have to explain to his wife/girlfriend/mom/friends/me that I couldn't find him in time, as he lacked a beacon. I also don't want to take my last breath underneath the snow because the guy I went out with was too cheap to get a beacon.

That's my opinion, your mileage may vary.

 

[Modman]

I did this on-line course last week and found it very helpful.

To this point this is the extent of my Avy Training. I know it doesn't replace a "Hands On Course" but until there is one offered closer to Kelowna it's going to be my only training. I carry the beacon, probe and shovel.... in a pack on my back. There's no doubt that everyone can benefit from an Avy Course, but......if people in the back country would just open their eyes a bit wider, be aware of their surroundings and potential situations and most importantly.....USE YOUR COMMON SENSEI believe there would be far less tragic incidents. I also have to ask the question to all of you who have an Avy Training course. Do you have the First Aid training to resuscitate and/or stabilize an avy victim? Digging out a buried victim is only the first step of the rescue process. Do you carry all the first aid supplies necessary to perform a resuscitation? Can you summon help from your location without leaving the victim? I'm not trying to be a Smart Ass but where does the preparedness end?

I carry a level 2 first aid kit and have First Aid and CPR training. I agree, at what point does preparedness end, I don't carry an AED around in my sled "just in case".

Common sense - too much use of these words. People on this site comprise probably 20-30% of the riders out there, so saying it here is totally useless, its the other 70-80% that we need to beat over the head with "common sense". People on this site could be called the "educated" 20%. Bogger is a great example of the usefulness of this site. I would ride with him. He is aware of his "unawareness" and has committed to riding safely and is willing to put himself out there and say that he doesn't have the training yet. His involvement on this site has allowed him to learn about lots of avy hazards, even if he hasn't taken the course. He knows alot more than most people out there, just from reading some of these threads and being involved. He might be safer than guys with avy training, since he's aware he doesn't know everything (and may not gamble more than he is willing to lose if he gets into a situtation that makes him uncomfortable).

I get this sense from his posts anyway - you can read my sig line if you want to know how I feel about riding in high risk avy terrain. In the past I have ridden with folks who seem to think that avy training makes them immune to the effects of avalanches . There is no requirement to push the envelope every time you go riding, the hills and snow will be there for many years to come. They were there long before we came around, and they will be there long after we are gone. Its the riders that come and go, and its the riders that need to decide if their actions are worth risking the rest of their life for one single moment in time. How many more bottomless powder blue bird days over the next 20/30/40 yrs are worth riding that slope right now? What's worth more? $100 right now, or $100 in one hundred years from now?

Unfortunately for Bogger, he (as well as a lot of others here) have seen the aftermath of avy deaths and its effects on people. The tragic deaths of other riders have not been in vain if it made an impact on someone else's decisions (which I think they have). Saskboy is another great example of this, and like RaspberryNytro, I have respect for him to do what he did and opt out of a trip to the hills because of the proper training.

So let's stop using "common sense" and start using the KNOWLEDGE that we have and sharing it with others. Keep this thread going so that others may learn from it.

Ride safe.

 

[08summit]

Having your beacon probe and shovel should be mandatory in the mountians (and actually knowing how to use them). I too will ride with and teach any newbies who are willing to learn as long as they have the proper equipment to rescue me if I get into trouble. Common sense doesn't cut it as there are so many people out there that have none...that being said experience and knowledge can go a long way. I think everyone who rides should @ some time take an Avy course but I do not believe you need it before your first ride. Taking any Avy course doesn't automatically make you safe...I've ridden with lots of guys with the course that still put themselves and others in danger. I myself have a course through Zacs...I had quite a few yrs of riding before I took the course and honestly don't think I learned very much in the classroom that I didn't know before I got there but I credit that to riding for yrs with "knowledgable" riders. I still didn't get a chance to do the course in the field and am looking forward to this part of the training as I think this is where I will gain the most knowledge that I can hopefully use for the better. Anyway my point being is there are alot of knowledgable people out there that don't have Avy courses that I would be comfortable riding with...carry the proper gear and KNOW how to use it...look around once in a while and ask yourself does this look safe and I'm I in a good position if something goes wrong? Don't be scared to point out things to other riders...speak up if someone is doing something that isn't safe. Lets make this a safe and fun winter out there and look out for one another.

 

[BC Sno-Ghost]

I agree that the term "Common Sense" does get over used when it comes to this topic. I also agree that some people possess far less of that "Sound, practical judgment gray matter" than others. "Cause and Effect"......what the He!! is that? However, if those people who lack common sense do take an avy course I don't believe that makes them any smarter or less of a danger to themselves or their riding partners. People with no "Common Sense" do not seek to further their "Knowledge". That would be an indication of "sound, practical judgment".

 

[maxwell]

thats a good comparison. i have noticed that also. myself i dont have ALL the avy training that is available. but im always willing and eager to learn and take advice. but some people i have come accross do not have much common sence, gear or will to learn!! hmmmm

 

[JaySimon]

but some people i have come accross do not have much common sence, gear or will to learn!! hmmmm

Those are the people to leave at the truck. The risk isn't worth it.

 

[mtnluvr]

I have a fair amount of experience riding back country and thought I was pretty well aware of my surroundings until I took the Zacs Tracs course a few years back. The things that really opened my eyes were learning what makes areas high risk ( mostly the places we sledders like to play), techniques for testing for instability, techniques for multiple burial rescues. I agree that for "basic" avi safety we are probly all somewhat ready, but what makes me nervous is that I know I thought common sense would save my bacon before, but now I am not so sure of those who have not gotten the training. I ride with very seasoned guys but in an emergency I am not sure how they would perform without the knowledge you may only get from these courses if it were something they had not prepared for.