riders with no or minimal avi training

[RMK Junky]

After reading all these post it's comforting to know how many of you guys and gals take things seriously when it comes to saftey in the hills. I can't praise you enough. Unfortuneately there are many that don't take it seriously and we have to deal with it when ch!t hits the fan. But that is life on so many levels. It would shock you if you new how many people drive their vehicle down the QE II at 150 kph with no licence,registration, insurance or training. But hey, that's not under the microscope when it comes to a fatality because of what one might call stupidity. But we are. With all the very popular areas that are advertised and the volume of people riding these "to go to" places, sooner or later one will find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. That is the pleasures of dealing with the other guy. That is why the training is not neccessarily for you but more so for the other guy. More than once I've been there to help someone else out of a situation that you would think "common sense" would not have got them there in the first place. We can all bitch to one another on what is right and what is wrong but is it really going to do any good??? How many are going to listen. With the experience and knowledge we have here on this forum any information (and that means opinions) in my opinion is worth its weight in gold with all the newbie riders out there.
But on another note, and I might offend some of you but I don't mean to...we are in a dangerous playground. Remember when there was no such thing as 200 + HP? You would look at a hill and think, "there's no way in hell I'm gonna climb that thing!" and continue on your merry way. Look at the industry now..WOW!! The bigger the better and go anywhere you point the skis. We are sometimes fuel to our own fire. But one must move on with the times. You can't ride a Elan 300 forever.
So I guess when you find yourself in a situation where "common sense" is no where to be found and human nature (I mean STUPIDITY) takes over. Do what you can to help prevent it and hopefully your are prepared for when the ch!t does hit the fan...

 

[maxwell]

im not sure sure its the HP that is the problem. chances are a turbo yamaha is going over the top anyways lol. its honestly stupidity and horsepower and a thousand other variables that create an avalanche. and sometimes not. last season some innocent people got trapped.

alot of people do lack common sence but alot just dont know any better. i have seen alot of new mountain riders climbing over other riders and its not that they are stupid but when you point it out to them they say holy smokes your right i didnt even think about that. and will never do it again. from what we learn from these courses and on this website the more people you can inform.

 

[Modman]

But on another note, and I might offend some of you but I don't mean to...we are in a dangerous playground. Remember when there was no such thing as 200 + HP? You would look at a hill and think, "there's no way in hell I'm gonna climb that thing!" and continue on your merry way. Look at the industry now..WOW!! The bigger the better and go anywhere you point the skis. We are sometimes fuel to our own fire. But one must move on with the times. You can't ride a Elan 300 forever.

Can't blame HP for peoples actions. That's like blaming poor driving on safer cars.

We used to ride to the same places people do now, we just used to do it at 5 am in the late spring when the snow was rock hard and you could go anywhere. I remember my dad waking me up at 4:30 am, on the hill by 5:30, ride 'til 10 am then it started to get soft and the machines would overheat and vapour lock, be home by noon before the afternoon sun made it too soft. Seen air cooled 440's go places you can't dream of in those hard spring conditions. And you felt safe going there because the snow conditions were safe.

Nowadays anyone can buy a 300 HP sled and climb the steepest hill in 4 ft of powder with little to no effort.

Just because you can........doesn't mean you should.

 

[imdoo'n]

can a teenage girl get pregnant, having sex for the first time.

ENOUGH SAID.

 

[maxwell]

sounds like experience talking

 

[Barry Barton]

i didnt say i had avy training prior to my first trip. i just had the right equiptment and knew how to use it as best as possible without formal training. sure thats not perfect. but its FAR better than NOT having it when its needed. all im saying is carry the gear and be cautious. if you need to help someone the gear is there. i dont push training on people. i push common sence and equiptment

Maxwell
I believe u have the sence with the avy training, I have artic survival training & most of the training is common sence,but the avy course is a good idea if u need to learn the information for going 1 time or 20 times. I was taught that most mistakes made even with the avy course is that knowone takes charge of a group of peaple & time is wasted doing this because a lot of peaple freeze up when accidents happen & they need someone to take charge when a accident happens. Knowing the avy course is great but if u can't control your emotions at the time u are useless to the person who's hurt. I don't have the avy course & the only resoon I have is time and thats no reason for not having it, but the peaple going up without safety eq. aren't to smart & hopefully nothing happens and if I meet up with them I'll make sure I tell them what I think of them for not having safety eq. and I'll make sure I'm not riding with them because if they get in trouble I can't help them because I can't find them and they can't help me RIDE SAFE EVERYONE.

 

[08summit]

Maxwell
I believe u have the sence with the avy training, I have artic survival training & most of the training is common sence,but the avy course is a good idea if u need to learn the information for going 1 time or 20 times. I was taught that most mistakes made even with the avy course is that knowone takes charge of a group of peaple & time is wasted doing this because a lot of peaple freeze up when accidents happen & they need someone to take charge when a accident happens. Knowing the avy course is great but if u can't control your emotions at the time u are useless to the person who's hurt. I don't have the avy course & the only resoon I have is time and thats no reason for not having it, but the peaple going up without safety eq. aren't to smart & hopefully nothing happens and if I meet up with them I'll make sure I tell them what I think of them for not having safety eq. and I'll make sure I'm not riding with them because if they get in trouble I can't help them because I can't find them and they can't help me RIDE SAFE EVERYONE.

I totally agree that some people are just terrible leaders...thats why everyone in your group should know how to use there equipment. Sometimes the guy with the best training and most experience can loss his head in a bad situation and the guy whom you thought was never the group leader can suprise everyone and take over when a bad situation occurs. Make sure everyone in your group carries the proper equipment and knows how to use it...hopefully you never have to but if you do and it is a friend or family in danger or even a complete stranger could you ever forgive yourself for having all the right gear in your pack and no idea how to use it.

 

[Modman]

sounds like experience talking

LMFAO!!!! :d:d:d

 

[SledMamma]

I have a fair amount of experience riding back country and thought I was pretty well aware of my surroundings until I took the Zacs Tracs course a few years back. The things that really opened my eyes were learning what makes areas high risk ( mostly the places we sledders like to play), techniques for testing for instability, techniques for multiple burial rescues. I agree that for "basic" avi safety we are probly all somewhat ready, but what makes me nervous is that I know I thought common sense would save my bacon before, but now I am not so sure of those who have not gotten the training. I ride with very seasoned guys but in an emergency I am not sure how they would perform without the knowledge you may only get from these courses if it were something they had not prepared for.

AMEN to that! As an emergency responder I can definitely tell you that even the most level headed person will lose their mind in an emergency situation if their response is not something they have visualized and practiced on a regular basis. There is a certain point where common sense just leaves, and instinct has to take over. But if there is no foundation laid for that instinct, then you are left with a blank.

An avy course is the beginning, but so is taking the time when you are riding, or watching others ride, to analyze different situations and possibly dangerous areas. From there, you need to picture in your brain what you would do to actually find someone and dig them out. Someone once asked me how I can assess an airway and intubate so quickly- and the answer is that I don't know anymore. Its just habit. My brain orders and my hands move. Avy rescue is like that.

When paramedics are trained, they run scenario after scenario, so that when they get on-scene, they move quickly without even really thinking. Its the same with athletes- they visualize technique before they actually "do" and it has been proven to improve performance... why not use it on the hill?

I know alot of people who "know" how to use a beacon, but if you were to play a friendly game of "find the beacon" in a non-emergent situation, it turns out they really don't know what they are doing. Sure, they can turn the beacon to "Receive" but what next? In a real situation, the time it takes them to navigate to the 'lost' beacon would mean the onset of brain death for the victim. Six minutes goes really, really fast.

And for the record, if you are going to dig people out, please try to take the time to learn how to give CPR. A twelve year old can do it in a babysitting course... so can you...

 

[maxwell]

probly 75% of people on this site have cpr training through work myself included and have taken it on differant levels on differant times. that being said i am not 100% confident in my cpr skills because i do not practice it like an EMR would on a regular basis. not affraid to admit it. however me knowing most of it is better than nothing still.

 

[SledMamma]

probly 75% of people on this site have cpr training through work myself included and have taken it on differant levels on differant times. that being said i am not 100% confident in my cpr skills because i do not practice it like an EMR would on a regular basis. not affraid to admit it. however me knowing most of it is better than nothing still.

And I think its the same with avy training and life in general. We need to hold ourselves accountable for the learning and do the best we can. Its all anyone can ask... When you know better, you do better.

 

[zrtdarryl]

i just have to ask this , how many of you after getting the course actually stop and dig the snowpits ?

 

[Modman]

i just hve to ask this , how many of you after getting the course actually stop and dig the snowpits ?

Not as often as I should but try to do one at least each time out so that I get a look at the snow conditions. If I dig a big trench and get stuck I'll often look at that as well.

 

[sumx54]

Not as often as I should but try to do one at least each time out so that I get a look at the snow conditions. If I dig a big trench and get stuck I'll often look at that as well.

X2.... more often looking at my stuck trenches ... lol so ya pretty much all day long

 

[fargineyesore]

I agree that the term "Common Sense" does get over used when it comes to this topic. I also agree that some people possess far less of that "Sound, practical judgment gray matter" than others. "Cause and Effect"......what the He!! is that? However, if those people who lack common sense do take an avy course I don't believe that makes them any smarter or less of a danger to themselves or their riding partners. People with no "Common Sense" do not seek to further their "Knowledge". That would be an indication of "sound, practical judgment".

I think that if you don't understand what causes avalanches, how and why the snow moves, etc., common sense alone isn't enough. I have learned alot just by being with some more experienced riders that do have some avalanche training and by reading these threads. Things that one might never think of and now know to be much more careful out there. I only get to the mountains at most twice a year, but just the thought of being buried or seeing someone else buried gives me the shivers.

 

[albertasummitx]

i bought my first mountain sled 8 or so years ago ,used, and the guy said for $100 he would throw in the beacon ,shovel ,2-probes and the backpack.i said naa i dont need that stuff. my buddy who was with me said bullchit if u want to ride with me you give the man the $100. he gave me a run down on the beacon and the how 2's of what to do .and now i wont go with anyone that dosent have it.there is always a buddy or someone who will lend u the equipment for the weekend to help someone out ,everyone is right it only takes 1 time ,1 avalanche and the equipment is well worth it.

all the equipment in the world ,all the training still dosent replace the expierence you need to properly react to the situation.

just my opinion.

 

[imdoo'n]

i just hve to ask this , how many of you after getting the course actually stop and dig the snowpits ?

have only dug one, generaly use avi report info on snow conditions and info gained from avi course and asking questions. avi training will not save you in an avalanche if that is what you are asking it just gives you tools to make your riding decision.
and yes women still can get pregnant when using protection.

 

[geelak900]

General consensus on here is correct, the training is important and will benefit even the most seasoned riders.
I rode for 15 years in the mountains before I finally took the training. I had a beacon, probe , and shovel before the course and my "common sense" made me feel like I could use it if need be. Guess what, not even close. First off common sense is a pretty easy term to throw out but if it's your first time to the mountains your "common sense" is very limited. This is an environment that is different than anything you've seen before. A very simple example of this is turning and countersteering in the powder. The flatlanders will be sitting down leaning for all their worth because their common sense says that's what you do. Standing and countersteering will not be common sense and they will find that they need to "re-learn" some techniques in the big snow.
Saying all this I would encourage people to go, just don't be hero's, err on the side of caution, do some homework on avalanches, and learn how to use your gear.
After 15 years of what I thought was good common sense riding, I took the course. What I learned is I was very lucky. I made many bad decisions along the way. My common sense did not necessarily match with the facts. I also learned that I did not know how to use my gear PROPERLY. In an avalanche you have 15 mins or less to save your buddy, not the time to learn.

Would you skydive ONCE without training? Would you scuba ONCE without training?? I hope not.

Get the gear, get the training, practise.....anything else is a very risky way to play.

 

[maxwell]

lots of people would if they could the differance is that it is a requirement...

/gets popcorn

 

[Bogger]

Would you skydive ONCE without training? Would you scuba ONCE without training?? I hope not.
Get the gear, get the training, practise.....anything else is a very risky way to play.

You can and people do..... People go scuba diving in the caribean without prior training, just a crash course and experienced guides...People skydive without training strapped to the belly of an experienced jumper.

Just making a point......... My opinion on this matter has already been clearly stated however information provided by others should be accurate....

Just sayin:d