Proven resolutions to the G4 clutching delema

[snochuk]

Re: Floating Secondary

I agree it would be nice to have a Floating Secondary with a small 3mm play. If BRP could assure the secondary doesn't get locked down in the wrong place on the shaft, I wouldn't be surprised if they came out with it standard on all sleds. Time will tell.

Like the Team Tied that is also a zero scrub like a paragon. TT been on Cats a few years now.
My 06 Rev was a belt burner and I used Duck'spacer to float and cured the problem.
With breakdowns not covered by BRP I am into this sled for almost 19K which is a whole new story. How much time is rediculous to get a sled to work......I have wrenched or had the sled wrenched on for at least 3X the hours ridden. No mod has ever been that fawked and that is where the frustration comes from.
Where does it end and at what cost???????
With a 9K value in one year. Likely drink on it ....some more....and end up gett ing rid of it. Wife dont even care any more what I doo.

BRPcares is where the true answer/fix for all needs to come from and so far "making it right" has changed nothing. Read some of BRPcare site....waste of time.
One thing for sure there has been no universal fix between sleds.
If I didnt like the performance so much for a stocker would have tossed in the towel long ago.
Still hoping BRPcares pulls through on an answer.

 

[snochuk]

More than likely anyone who does the P85 will end up having crank issues or even issues with the P85 itself with broken springs and spiders. Read up on why the pdrive has the offset. Its a calibration and alignment issue that will be resolved eventually. No belt issues here, but would be nice to have a floater on the secondary.

So far Ken has had no issues and he is pretty much the guru on putting p85 on doos successfully for many many years
I am by no means Kens promoter but MM gas a solid reputation and he is one of if not the best go to guys still around.

 

[ktmsx350f]

More than likely anyone who does the P85 will end up having crank issues or even issues with the P85 itself with broken springs and spiders. Read up on why the pdrive has the offset. Its a calibration and alignment issue that will be resolved eventually. No belt issues here, but would be nice to have a floater on the secondary.

It may be a little quick to jump on the P85 IF brp is actually coming out with a sold fix. on the other hand thiough i would deffently say the P85 would be alot easier on a crank then the wobble design. A ballanced P85 is deffently not going to cause crank issues. If you look at an engine automotive, motorcycle, snow moble, race engine their is to way to ballance internally and externally. Internally is allys the best design look at any race engine/performance bassed engine will be internally ballance. Ford used externall ballanced engines for yeas and yes it works but one upgrade on almost all sbf that make any kind of hp is to go to an internally rotating assembly. I have read the BRP release and as a tech and someone who has build aot of engines i thing it"s a total joke and a good chance that it has to do with the engine failures people are seeingon the higher milage 850's. **** sorry don't want to get off topic good trend stupid back asswords ****ing wobble ****.

 

[snopro]

I am not a fan of the wobble design. I have had no progress in getting my head around the technology. I have an open mind though. I talked to a good customer of mine at our local Spring Fever stop the other night here in Calgary. He spoke to a friend of his who runs a very successful balancing/rotating business and talked to him about the concept. He said the guy says the theory is sound if done properly but stated because of the intent of the reasoning behind the concept of which is to counterbalance the engine externally any changes like truing the P Drive or putting another manufacturers clutch on there could create vibration in the engine that would be detrimental to long term engine life. He also feels that the best way to counterbalance is to do it internally but this may be an issue for this engine design? Food for thought guys?

 

[Caper11]

Changing to a p85, I dunno. The team sec on a doo is good for 2 things, quick changes in clutching at the races and easy to float. They are too fussy to clutch, they are heavier in rotating mass, and not worth the cash and do not work as good as the QRS with a proven helix. As far as other sec, the paragon is far superior to the qrs and the team.

As far as the qrs, I am not a fan of the helix used, and have had great results in changing the 40 deg out in the past especially in BB's.
In my experience, the biggest issue with clutching is trying to convince a owner that has already spent the coin to try something else.
Wether its stock, or a kit, its never spot on until the owner puts in the wrench time. Im constantly trying different clutching setups, WHY you may ask? Cause Even tho my setup worked good before I want to see if I can make it even better. If I make it worse than its easy to put it back to my previous setting. So if someone asks me what works and what doesnt, I have the experience and the confidence to answer their question.
So has there been proven results in changing the 850 clutching using the stock primary and sec? yes.





The fixed sheave wobble design will work for resonance issues and the first sign of a resonance problem in the engine, was the pipe sensor backing out.
Is the wobble sheave the right answer?
IMO no not in this application, your still going to have 2 spots that is not grabbing the belt properly in the 360deg rotation. Solution imo is to add mass to the rotating assembly or a small harmonic balancer.

Now the ring gear on the 850 models was moved to the magneto. I wonder if that ring gear was still on the fixed sheave like the tra would the runout still be necessary. Doo says it got removed for quicker spooling of rpm but the mass is just moved to the other side of the engine. Im curious if the ring gear will be there on the SHOT models.







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[Daag44]

The predicament of Snochuk and Daag44

Sled is set up and pulls steady at 7900 to 8000 when i can find that tiny out of place display. This can vary a bit depending on snow condition.

On flat ground between areas RPM modulated with thumb.
Not changing clutching every two miles.

My friends and I have been building and thrashing sleds with everything from nitrous to turbos for 30 years.

I'll pass on video assistance from 5000km away.
But thanks for the offer, really.

On the bold, that was a smart move. I would of done the same had a smart ass asked me the same thing. In the visitors messages I laid my cards on the table and provided the reason I came looking to this forum to see how you Westerners were doing with the 850. For me all the Summit 850 belt problems had been covered back in December 2016, so I honestly believed everything was fine for the most part, and I mean for those who made the necessary adjustments.

For the past few years I only visit S&M to see what is going on with you Western folks. Due to the better snow conditions I have always found your insights helpful to me. On March 18th 2017 I logged in for the first time in months or maybe a year just to see what was up with the 850. It took no more than an hour of catching-up to realize something was really wrong and my curiosity got the best of me. That's how I got wrapped-up into this mess. Wisdom of afterthought, I often wonder if I should have left it alone. The again I find it is best to move forward.

It's been nearly a month and after seeing your struggle with maybe $2000 in belts and whatever other problems you had that tore into your sled season, I can't help to think if you should just give-up on the sled or give-up on the clutch. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, just that you should be free to consider a change.

I am a firm believer that if the sled or in this case the clutch doesn't work for you, then feel free to change. No it's not a trick suggestion. We pay these sleds out of our own pockets. Once purchased they belong to us. No one should be obliged to make a change or be restricted to make a change. Sledding is first and foremost about our passion and our leisurely time. There is no manufacturer or wise Easterner guy that can tell you what you can or cannot do. That is my fundamental belief.

There is this one 850 owner who recently told me on a public forum that he was worried about making any change to his sled from adding ventilation to lowering the Max Engine RPM to making any change in alignment. Heck I was worried for him for feeling that way for a sport that was meant to get our minds off of our daily stress.

While I see all of these problems, others have been having a great time after making slight adjustments to their 850 without worrying about the warranty. They have been enjoying their season with the very best sled they have ever owned. I see a big difference between those that enjoy their 850 and those who worry too much about voiding their warranty to the point of seeing only a Black & White line in the snow.

It is a sport that is supposed to be fun. If you personally have fed several thousands of your own dime and lost half of your season worrying about things that didn't work for you, that I understand. I deal a lot with owners who spend thousands of their hard earned money on sleds with zero warranty to save money and remain in the sport, and that's not easy. It takes no more than 10 miles with the wrong setup on a used sled to burn a $2000-$4000 rebuild investment.

So if you want to do anything to your 850 because you believe it will work better, than you should feel free to do it. There is always a but which I saved for last. I don't believe that you are struggling with any of the problems that I mentioned. After taking a closer look at many of your posts from early in the season, you seem to be struggling with the reasons why you have not been able to make it work, and once we found about the new clutch design, how it could possibly work. It is only my opinion, but that's what I believe you are having trouble with.

It has come to the point where you are wrestling against knowing the trouble it brought to you personally and if it is your responsibility to warn the public at large that it doesn't work or it will not work despite the modifications for 2018 mods. I find that it is a large responsibility that you are taking upon your shoulders and it has being weighing on you personally. It has become so heavy that you have taken solace from those who might agree with you. Ironically, any agreement has weighted even more on your shoulders.

Are you sure that you and I are in a different Predicament?

 

[snochuk]

Re: The predicament of Snochuk and Daag44

On the bold, that was a smart move. I would of done the same had a smart ass asked me the same thing. In the visitors messages I laid my cards on the table and provided the reason I came looking to this forum to see how you Westerners were doing with the 850. For me all the Summit 850 belt problems had been covered back in December 2016, so I honestly believed everything was fine for the most part, and I mean for those who made the necessary adjustments.

For the past few years I only visit S&M to see what is going on with you Western folks. Due to the better snow conditions I have always found your insights helpful to me. On March 18th 2017 I logged in for the first time in months or maybe a year just to see what was up with the 850. It took no more than an hour of catching-up to realize something was really wrong and my curiosity got the best of me. That's how I got wrapped-up into this mess. Wisdom of afterthought, I often wonder if I should have left it alone. The again I find it is best to move forward.

It's been nearly a month and after seeing your struggle with maybe $2000 in belts and whatever other problems you had that tore into your sled season, I can't help to think if you should just give-up on the sled or give-up on the clutch. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, just that you should be free to consider a change.

I am a firm believer that if the sled or in this case the clutch doesn't work for you, then feel free to change. No it's not a trick suggestion. We pay these sleds out of our own pockets. Once purchased they belong to us. No one should be obliged to make a change or be restricted to make a change. Sledding is first and foremost about our passion and our leisurely time. There is no manufacturer or wise Easterner guy that can tell you what you can or cannot do. That is my fundamental belief.

There is this one 850 owner who recently told me on a public forum that he was worried about making any change to his sled from adding ventilation to lowering the Max Engine RPM to making any change in alignment. Heck I was worried for him for feeling that way for a sport that was meant to get our minds off of our daily stress.

While I see all of these problems, others have been having a great time after making slight adjustments to their 850 without worrying about the warranty. They have been enjoying their season with the very best sled they have ever owned. I see a big difference between those that enjoy their 850 and those who worry too much about voiding their warranty to the point of seeing only a Black & White line in the snow.

It is a sport that is supposed to be fun. If you personally have fed several thousands of your own dime and lost half of your season worrying about things that didn't work for you, that I understand. I deal a lot with owners who spend thousands of their hard earned money on sleds with zero warranty to save money and remain in the sport, and that's not easy. It takes no more than 10 miles with the wrong setup on a used sled to burn a $2000-$4000 rebuild investment.

So if you want to do anything to your 850 because you believe it will work better, than you should feel free to do it. There is always a but which I saved for last. I don't believe that you are struggling with any of the problems that I mentioned. After taking a closer look at many of your posts from early in the season, you seem to be struggling with the reasons why you have not been able to make it work, and once we found about the new clutch design, how it could possibly work. It is only my opinion, but that's what I believe you are having trouble with.

It has come to the point where you are wrestling against knowing the trouble it brought to you personally and if it is your responsibility to warn the public at large that it doesn't work or it will not work despite the modifications for 2018 mods. I find that it is a large responsibility that you are taking upon your shoulders and it has being weighing on you personally. It has become so heavy that you have taken solace from those who might agree with you. Ironically, any agreement has weighted even more on your shoulders.

Are you sure that you and I are in a different Predicament?

Well.....that's deep.
And no.

The bulkhead shattered like kindling.
A belt every 600km and me expected to investigate and front along the way costs is fawked.
Need to fix estart yet.
BRPcares dodges answers.
You dodge answers on your affiliation with BRP yet you have helped"customers" - sorry not really trusting you but some of your suggestions on maintenance and general fixes are ok. Just cost me more time and money to do.

Dealer said no more help on bulkheads and I get to pay for fix kit!

I do not ride trails and I do my best to see no one else all day outside of my group. I expect my equipment to work.....at least as long as the warranty so my azz does not need to be flown or dragged of the mountain.
Sledding should be fun and the 850 has not been and BRP has a huge dissapointment for all those reasons.
The 850 is a far cry from what is was promised to be and ya I tried to give it back and trade it in.

Spent 60k on my car with one blown motor in the last three years and am keeping it. Not a money thing. I actually value my limited recreation time more so that actual cash.

I most certainly am not out to save the world.
I have no use for dishonesty, people or companies the do not accept responsibility or accountability for their actions. Slimy responses and meaningless promises.
These types with a lack of morals are the only ones that can make lawyers look good.

As for your assumptions on my mental well being you can have two choices.
1) Sell your whacked out ideas to Harlequin romances
2)kma

Or maybe a third one.
What is your affiliation to to BRP- direct or indirect?

 

[rightsideup]

So far Ken has had no issues and he is pretty much the guru on putting p85 on doos successfully for many many years
I am by no means Kens promoter but MM gas a solid reputation and he is one of if not the best go to guys still around.

very accurate statement

 

[sledneck__11]

So sick of this daag guy!! try to read a thread and the guy just doesnt quit, i dont dare go near the 850 issue thread cause of him and now hes on this one. what works in the east may not work here accept it man and move on

 

[Daag44]

Re: The predicament of Snochuk and Daag44

Well.....that's deep.
And no.

The bulkhead shattered like kindling.
A belt every 600km and me expected to investigate and front along the way costs is fawked.

Need to fix estart yet.

BRPcares dodges answers.

You dodge answers on your affiliation with BRP yet you have helped"customers" - sorry not really trusting you but some of your suggestions on maintenance and general fixes are ok. Just cost me more time and money to do.

Dealer said no more help on bulkheads and I get to pay for fix kit!

I do not ride trails and I do my best to see no one else all day outside of my group. I expect my equipment to work.....at least as long as the warranty so my azz does not need to be flown or dragged of the mountain.
Sledding should be fun and the 850 has not been and BRP has a huge dissapointment for all those reasons
.
The 850 is a far cry from what is was promised to be and ya I tried to give it back and trade it in.

Spent 60k on my car with one blown motor in the last three years and am keeping it. Not a money thing. I actually value my limited recreation time more so that actual cash.

I most certainly am not out to save the world.
I have no use for dishonesty, people or companies the do not accept responsibility or accountability for their actions. Slimy responses and meaningless promises.
These types with a lack of morals are the only ones that can make lawyers look good.

As for your assumptions on my mental well being you can have two choices.
1) Sell your whacked out ideas to Harlequin romances
2)kma

Or maybe a third one.
What is your affiliation to to BRP- direct or indirect?

I never pretended to have any affiliation of any kind, nor did I make any illusion nor allusion to it. All my posts are open to the public, and there is no such thing as far that I can remember. I spoke my mind and see no trouble with this. I still do not understand why you put so much focus on this craziness.

 

[snochuk]

Re: The predicament of Snochuk and Daag44

I never pretended to have any affiliation of any kind, nor did I make any illusion nor allusion to it. All my posts are open to the public, and there is no such thing as far that I can remember. I spoke my mind and see no trouble with this. I still do not understand why you put so much focus on this craziness.

Just keeping my self busy while I wait on BRP. And say I was some one who worked with or for a legal firm.
You still have not answered the question.
Kind of a no I am not or a yes I am question, yes with an explanation.

Your responses just have the same vagueness as BRPcares does.
That's all.
Call me crazy.................but you already did.

 

[Cat401]

Re: The predicament of Snochuk and Daag44

Just keeping my self busy while I wait on BRP. And say I was some one who worked with or for a legal firm.
You still have not answered the question.
Kind of a no I am not or a yes I am question, yes with an explanation.

Your responses just have the same vagueness as BRPcares does.
That's all.
Call me crazy.................but you already did.

snochuk...just run away...Daag is literally wasting oxygen.....and our time.......listen to the words of Mark Twain....

 

[Daag44]

Being recommended to Mark Twain for clutching???

Just keeping my self busy while I wait on BRP. And say I was some one who worked with or for a legal firm.
You still have not answered the question.
Kind of a no I am not or a yes I am question, yes with an explanation.

Your responses just have the same vagueness as BRPcares does.
That's all.
Call me crazy.................but you already did.

snochuk...just run away...Daag is literally wasting oxygen.....and our time.......listen to the words of Mark Twain....

View attachment 204243

So while I recommending the 850 owners who are having trouble with belt life to seek professional help, you are telling all Westerners to go seek advice from Mark Twain???

 

[Rbrduk]

They are trying to get professional help from BRP

 

[Mike270412]

I think Daag44 is actually Longhairedfreak.

 

[Trashy]

I think Daag44 is actually Longhairedfreak.

That's funny

I must look

 

[Trashy]

I think Daag44 is actually Longhairedfreak.

That's funny

I must look

Daag is legit and not an alter.

Sorry Daag, but I did have to check.

 

[niner]

......

 

[Big A]

Damn, my money was on Kanedouche having an alter ego Lol. In all serious though mr Daag44, you haven't the slightest clue about the terrain or conditions we ride and therefore not a Fuc&ing clue about how to set up a true mountain sled. Your ridiculous attempts to minimalize the 850 issues are rather pathetic, telling people that have spent a huge chunk of their hard earned money that they need to spend thousands more to set each sled up for every particular application, stating that the issues are the fault of the owners, WTF Is wrong with you?? You think everyone that buys a sled has journeyman level mechanical knowledge, FK NO, most guys just want to ride the damn things and have no intentions of "calibrating the clutching", what an idiotic statement. Now I realize that you are most likely being paid to come on to sites like snow and mud and convolute each topic to the point that no one wants to even read the thread let alone post in it, but everyone here has had enough of your $hit. You are wasting everyone's time and clearly just pissing people off. BEAT IT and gain, if I was a Mod, I wouldn't hesitate to make your profile disappear along with every post you've made to date. Have a good day.


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[Teth-Air]

You can get any of their clutches with Doo taper.