major oil spill into the red deer river

[frock]

I honestly would love for us to refine the oil in Alberta...... But no........ Instead we upgrade it slightly and send it to another country to allow them to reap the benefits of it. That however is just beauracracy....... and unfortunately most of us have no input on that.

I would much rather see refined product leave here at premium price.... Along with the need for skilled people to operate the additional upgraders and refineries. I would sell them my property to build one on if it would be viable...... I really don't mind.

If we keep saying and believing that "most of us have no input" then that is exactly what we will get. Look at the HST in BC for an example of what the public can force if enough people believe and fight.

I am not so hypocritical as to say I don't need oil, that would mean I would have to be willing to give up sledding and that's not happening anytime soon

What if a neighbour said to you I need to haul my load of XXXXX across your land for the next 40+ years, but there is a remote chance that if there is an accident you may lose your livelihood? This is what the citizens of BC who depend on fishing for food and a living are being faced with right now. The fishing industry off the coast of BC is not a tiny industry supporting a few crybabies who are trying to hold up an entire province. They are a huge industry with thousands of people who's living depends on clean rivers and oceans. I think this is at the heart of why there is a lot of opposition to this pipeline. Why should someone's self interests be anymore important than anothers? Where is the line that indicates the risk is not worth the reward?

The wars in the not to distant future will be fought over food and fresh water, with the changing global weather that is a fact.

I don't have the answers to this, but these questions need to be asked and answered to all the stakeholders satisfaction even if you don't like the answers.

 

[JaySimon]

The wars in the not to distant future will be fought over food and fresh water, with the changing global weather that is a fact.

Truth be spoken here. We need the fresh water, the more we have in stock when shite goes down, the bigger a player we will be on the global market.

 

[snoboy]

I am not so hypocritical as to say I don't need oil, that would mean I would have to be willing to give up sledding and that's not happening anytime soon

Unfortunately, and not meaning to pick on you specifically, but this attitude is the problem. Can't have our cake and eat it too. We could probably do a great job of safely transporting enough oil to meet true needs of the world, it's trying to move enough to cover the wants that has us in this mess. There's your risk/reward line.

If we want to continue using oil and related products the way we do, there will be accidents. Until society is ready for a wholesale change we can only do the best we can and, sadly, it will never be perfect. It's already been mentioned, but the oil companies do have a vested interest in trying to prevent spills.

 

[Stompin Tom]

Unfortunately, and not meaning to pick on you specifically, but this attitude is the problem. Can't have our cake and eat it too. We could probably do a great job of safely transporting enough oil to meet true needs of the world, it's trying to move enough to cover the wants that has us in this mess. There's your risk/reward line.

If we want to continue using oil and related products the way we do, there will be accidents. Until society is ready for a wholesale change we can only do the best we can and, sadly, it will never be perfect. It's already been mentioned, but the oil companies do have a vested interest in trying to prevent spills.

The problem most in BC are having with the pipeline is the risk reward scenario. What is the benefit for BC? We get a huge scar across the entire province, we get potential oil spills, and the oil has no secondary industry to BC, it get shipped out from a port that currently does not allow Tanker access. That is a concern that is gaining steam, the tanker traffic off our coast.

 

[snoboy]

The problem most in BC are having with the pipeline is the risk reward scenario. What is the benefit for BC? We get a huge scar across the entire province, we get potential oil spills, and the oil has no secondary industry to BC, it get shipped out from a port that currently does not allow Tanker access. That is a concern that is gaining steam, the tanker traffic off our coast.

But we're now working in a global environment, the old way of thinking isn't really applicable anymore. If that oil gets shipped to Asia, it comes back to BC in the form of cheap crap on Walmarts shelves. It builds parts for your sleds and quads, your laptops, your iPods, your TVs. It helps to subsidize the gasoline you put in your truck and toys, provides fuel for the tankers that are bringing goods from the manufacturing countries to the consuming countries. The royalties go towards our health care & education infrastructure in the form of transfer payments.

End of the day we're all Canadian, regardless of which side of a provincial boundary we live on and these pipelines do provide some benefit to all of us. I'm certainly not saying that the concerns aren't valid and that we should push ahead with no regard to others industries and ways of life, but it's pretty naive to think that there's zero benefit to BC.

 

[Stompin Tom]

But we're now working in a global environment, the old way of thinking isn't really applicable anymore. If that oil gets shipped to Asia, it comes back to BC in the form of cheap crap on Walmarts shelves. It builds parts for your sleds and quads, your laptops, your iPods, your TVs. It helps to subsidize the gasoline you put in your truck and toys, provides fuel for the tankers that are bringing goods from the manufacturing countries to the consuming countries. The royalties go towards our health care & education infrastructure in the form of transfer payments.

End of the day we're all Canadian, regardless of which side of a provincial boundary we live on and these pipelines do provide some benefit to all of us. I'm certainly not saying that the concerns aren't valid and that we should push ahead with no regard to others industries and ways of life, but it's pretty naive to think that there's zero benefit to BC.

Frankly I think its pretty naive on your part to expect BC to openly accept this pipeline. Your sales pitch is rather poor, we will get cheap products back? Really? Thats the best you have? My stance on the pipeline is getting stronger if that is all you have for reasoning.

 

[Stompin Tom]

It helps to subsidize the gasoline you put in your truck and toys,

Really now, time for you to grow up a bit. This is BC, we dont get any breaks on the price of fuel, as a matter of fact its a sore spot here, yet you expect us to celebrate and welcome this pipeline with open arms?

Frankly I find your logic a bit insulting.

 

[snoboy]

Wow, dude.

You really need to think before you type, because you totally missed the point of that post.

Perhaps your panties got all bunched up before you got to this part? "I'm certainly not saying that the concerns aren't valid and that we should push ahead with no regard to others industries and ways of life, but it's pretty naive to think that there's zero benefit to BC."

N. Americans in general pay a ridiculously low amount for fuel & I have a funny feeling the dockworkers at the Port of Vancouver may have a different opinion on the shipping cheap goods part of it, seeing as their livelyhoods depend on those containers full of stuff coming through. I'm also pretty sure I've seen Walmarts all over BC, guessing someone likes having access to their cheap crap...

Grow up? Are you saying that my post has an immature view of globalization and how it all impacts Canada, or that you don't get it and that's the best you could do in response?

Oh, yeah. I lived a large part of my life in BC and own businesses that depend on tourism there now. I've got family in all parts of the province who will be just impacted as you will. I really do think you should try and understand what I wrote...

 

[eclipse1966]

yes we are working in a global environment but as a Canadian are you ok with sending our oil to China to produce this so called cheap crap at the same time risking the quality of our inherited land without careful thought, consideration and risk management? Just because it brings money means nothing. I have been to China several times and trust me you do not want your back yard to look like theirs. In many industrial cities they have no regard towards their environment and it shows. The mighty dollar takes precedent over any such regulations. Why to you think the likes of Walmart do business in China...... not because they want the Chinese to prosper but they want to exploit what they can do here. I am still sitting on the fence on this pipeline decision but if I had it my way and if it does go thru, the pipe should be bubble wrapped and measures put in place that this becomes the highest regulated/inspected project EVER! Too much at risk otherwise. Oh and the people of BC need to be rewarded better since I see a lot of guys from AB claim this is "our" oil not anyone else.

But we're now working in a global environment, the old way of thinking isn't really applicable anymore. If that oil gets shipped to Asia, it comes back to BC in the form of cheap crap on Walmarts shelves. It builds parts for your sleds and quads, your laptops, your iPods, your TVs. It helps to subsidize the gasoline you put in your truck and toys, provides fuel for the tankers that are bringing goods from the manufacturing countries to the consuming countries. The royalties go towards our health care & education infrastructure in the form of transfer payments.

End of the day we're all Canadian, regardless of which side of a provincial boundary we live on and these pipelines do provide some benefit to all of us. I'm certainly not saying that the concerns aren't valid and that we should push ahead with no regard to others industries and ways of life, but it's pretty naive to think that there's zero benefit to BC.

 

[snoboy]

yes we are working in a global environment but as a Canadian are you ok with sending our oil to China to produce this so called cheap crap at the same time risking the quality of our inherited land without careful thought, consideration and risk management? Just because it brings money means nothing. I have been to China several times and trust me you do not want your back yard to look like theirs. In many industrial cities they have no regard towards their environment and it shows. The mighty dollar takes precedent over any such regulations. Why to you think the likes of Walmart do business in China...... not because they want the Chinese to prosper but they want to exploit what they can do here. I am still sitting on the fence on this pipeline decision but if I had it my way and if it does go thru, the pipe should be bubble wrapped and measures put in place that this becomes the highest regulated/inspected project EVER! Too much at risk otherwise. Oh and the people of BC need to be rewarded better since I see a lot of guys from AB claim this is "our" oil not anyone else.

I didn't say I agreed with it.

Personally, I think we screwed up decades ago by not investing in the infrastructure needed to be a lot more self-sufficient. Not a big fan of globalization in its current form, but it is the reality we exist with today.

As far as the precautions surrounding any pipeline built through sensitive areas goes, I'm 100% in agreement with you. The holier-than-thou attitude of some BC residents is what I was addressing there, whether they want to admit it or not they're just as guilty of succumbing to the lure of cheap stuff.

 

[Summiteer]

I'm a Manitoba born douche bag currently living in Alberta,does that count?

Were you a douchebag before you came to Alberta?

 

[Summiteer]

Truth be spoken here. We need the fresh water, the more we have in stock when shite goes down, the bigger a player we will be on the global market.

The way this government runs things, by then some Chinese or American corporation will have control of our water anyway.......

 

[Stompin Tom]

Wow, dude.

You really need to think before you type, because you totally missed the point of that post.

Perhaps your panties got all bunched up before you got to this part? "I'm certainly not saying that the concerns aren't valid and that we should push ahead with no regard to others industries and ways of life, but it's pretty naive to think that there's zero benefit to BC."

N. Americans in general pay a ridiculously low amount for fuel & I have a funny feeling the dockworkers at the Port of Vancouver may have a different opinion on the shipping cheap goods part of it, seeing as their livelyhoods depend on those containers full of stuff coming through. I'm also pretty sure I've seen Walmarts all over BC, guessing someone likes having access to their cheap crap...

Grow up? Are you saying that my post has an immature view of globalization and how it all impacts Canada, or that you don't get it and that's the best you could do in response?

Oh, yeah. I lived a large part of my life in BC and own businesses that depend on tourism there now. I've got family in all parts of the province who will be just impacted as you will. I really do think you should try and understand what I wrote...

Maybe you should try reading your posts from a different point of view. To you it makes perfect sense, to me, nope, a bunch of bunk. I am a business man, in my business I possibly could benefit in the actual building of a pipeline, but you know what, each and every day I am more and more against it. Global economy? You guys sold out the oil sands to the Chinaman already, and now you want to press their will at our expense.

This pipe line reminds me allot of an old neighbor. He held himself in pretty high esteem, we co-existed but never had much use for each other. Then one day he was looking at selling his house and found out his fence line was about 2 feet into my property. Suddenly he was my best friend. He thought maybe I should gift him the property.

Allot of cold Alberta beers being handed over the fence right now, to bad I dont drink anymore.

 

[snoboy]

Maybe you should try reading your posts from a different point of view. To you it makes perfect sense, to me, nope, a bunch of bunk.

What point of view? I didn't offer an opinion. You just assume that I, and apparently all Albertans, want to see economic growth at all costs, the message was simply that everyone in Canada does see some benefit from the industry. Unfortunately, that growth and our way of life do come with a cost. The question is what are we willing to sacrifice to address that.

You seem to taking a very narrow minded view and kind of keep missing the point. "Us guys" didn't sell out to the Chinese, Canadians did when they opted to sell our resources raw and import the finished goods. The Americans did by deciding to become a nation of managers and outsource the actual work. We've been moving down this path for decades, now we're at a point where it's almost impossible to buy true made in Canada products, or even NA, and the countries that our wallets voted to be the manufacturers want those resources in return.

Pipeline leaks, flooded valleys, coal mining scars. All negative results of our exploitation of the resources Canada possesses for export to the manufacturing countries in return for the means to support our lifestyles.

I'd be more than willing to sacrifice in exchange for a return to a world not so controlled by MBA's and the pursuit of profit, but it doesn't appear that the rest of the world is on board with that. So at this point we all have to either completely change our lifestyles, opt out and pay the true cost of energy, or try and do the best we can in the world we're a part of.

If we want universal health care, high quality public education, enough power to run our NASA level quantities of electronics and ride our gasoline sucking toys, we have to accept that there will be consequences. That doesn't mean that we can't hold industry responsible for doing everything in their power to mitigate environmental impact, though, or do everything we can personally to minimize our impact.

I think we're probably more in agreement than you think, Stompin' Tom Have a ginger ale.

 

[Stompin Tom]

What point of view? I didn't offer an opinion. You just assume that I, and apparently all Albertans, want to see economic growth at all costs, the message was simply that everyone in Canada does see some benefit from the industry. Unfortunately, that growth and our way of life do come with a cost. The question is what are we willing to sacrifice to address that.

You seem to taking a very narrow minded view and kind of keep missing the point. "Us guys" didn't sell out to the Chinese, Canadians did when they opted to sell our resources raw and import the finished goods. The Americans did by deciding to become a nation of managers and outsource the actual work. We've been moving down this path for decades, now we're at a point where it's almost impossible to buy true made in Canada products, or even NA, and the countries that our wallets voted to be the manufacturers want those resources in return.

Pipeline leaks, flooded valleys, coal mining scars. All negative results of our exploitation of the resources Canada possesses for export to the manufacturing countries in return for the means to support our lifestyles.

I'd be more than willing to sacrifice in exchange for a return to a world not so controlled by MBA's and the pursuit of profit, but it doesn't appear that the rest of the world is on board with that. So at this point we all have to either completely change our lifestyles, opt out and pay the true cost of energy, or try and do the best we can in the world we're a part of.

If we want universal health care, high quality public education, enough power to run our NASA level quantities of electronics and ride our gasoline sucking toys, we have to accept that there will be consequences. That doesn't mean that we can't hold industry responsible for doing everything in their power to mitigate environmental impact, though, or do everything we can personally to minimize our impact.

I think we're probably more in agreement than you think, Stompin' Tom Have a ginger ale.

by sold out I mean the actual ownership of the companies running the oilsands. Check em' out.

I have no interest in having a pipeline through my backyard. The chinamen are happy to sell me plastic junk now, I dont need to pay for it with super tankers off the coast, a huge scar across my back yard and the chance of an oil leak. I already pay enough tax's for my medical and pay way more than enough for my fuel. Frankly I am more put off by the Tankers and the construction of the pipeline than anything else. And by my backyard I mean my backyard. The proposed line comes within 20 miles of my house and directly through one of our favorite area's for camping, fishing and hunting.

Nope, quickly losing my desire to have a pipeline here. The thing is, as I said in my original post, the public opinion has swung way to the no side here. If you want to sell the idea to the people of BC your using the wrong tactics.

 

[Mike270412]

.....

 

[Mike270412]

Were you a douchebag before you came to Alberta?

yes..

 

[mountainman611]

by sold out I mean the actual ownership of the companies running the oilsands. Check em' out.

I have no interest in having a pipeline through my backyard. The chinamen are happy to sell me plastic junk now, I dont need to pay for it with super tankers off the coast, a huge scar across my back yard and the chance of an oil leak. I already pay enough tax's for my medical and pay way more than enough for my fuel. Frankly I am more put off by the Tankers and the construction of the pipeline than anything else. And by my backyard I mean my backyard. The proposed line comes within 20 miles of my house and directly through one of our favorite area's for camping, fishing and hunting.

Nope, quickly losing my desire to have a pipeline here. The thing is, as I said in my original post, the public opinion has swung way to the no side here. If you want to sell the idea to the people of BC your using the wrong tactics.

Well Tom, I really try to see your point but unfortunately I cant. If we all would take your point of view "Not in my back yard" we would all be still be riding horses and wiping our asses with moss.

I moved up to a small town called Grande Cache in Alberta 30 years ago. At that time this town and surrounding area was "pristine" in nature.
But since then logging,coal mining and natural gas exploration has come into many of my favorite areas for camping and fishing.

I'm sure Tom that you would not utilize any of these roads in your back yard for your pursuits.

Do I like what is going on? Absolutely not!
But what is really the solution?

Everyone would love a completely green solution,but unfortunately it doesn't exist

Well it does....but it costs$$$

 

[Stompin Tom]

Well Tom, I really try to see your point but unfortunately I cant. If we all would take your point of view "Not in my back yard" we would all be still be riding horses and wiping our asses with moss.

I moved up to a small town called Grande Cache in Alberta 30 years ago. At that time this town and surrounding area was "pristine" in nature.
But since then logging,coal mining and natural gas exploration has come into many of my favorite areas for camping and fishing.

I'm sure Tom that you would not utilize any of these roads in your back yard for your pursuits.

Do I like what is going on? Absolutely not!
But what is really the solution?

Everyone would love a completely green solution,but unfortunately it doesn't exist

Well it does....but it costs$$$

Mountain man,

The difference is the cost effect. The pipe line adds very little to BC but the enviromental cost is high. 1st, super tankers have been banned from the inside passage in BC, not because we dont like to look at them, but because it is very dangerous water to navigate and the risk is much greater than other parts of the world. 2nd, not in my backyard? I am a logger, I know what industry is all about, but we also see local benefits from logging, we employ a bevy of people from harvesting, reforestagtion, sawmills, truckers hauling into the mills and hauling lumber out, pulp mills, the spin off is dramatic. A pipe line? There is no spin off, no local employment. Some industrial work during construction then natta, nothing, just sit and look at it. Meanwhile our neighbors to the east keep telling us how great they are? No thanks, not in my back yard.

Utilize roads they create? The resource roads that all the Albertan sledders use around here were created off the sweat and blood of my family, my freinds and my neighbors. Just what we need, another road across the hundreds already there.

What I am hearing is this, our neighbors to the east want a pipeline, but they have no idea of the cost effect to us, frankly I dont think they give a crap. I hear hey, it will help you get cheap products from China and build more resource roads? Thats the best you have? Really?

You say you dont like what has gone on but there is nothing you can do about it? In this case there is something we can do about it.

 

[imdoo'n]

no benefits , shheeet just look at all the wide open sled and quad trails that yer goin to get, off someone elses sweat and dollar, the pipe will generate jobs in the area, create places for all that timber that is presently rotting or has become prime beetle habitat to go to or be pushed over. no benefit my azz.


seems like a lot of bc against alberta wondering what the underlying cause is.

personnaly a new pipeline, that is being looked after and inspected with shut off valves closer together, doesn't really bother me. it is the 40 to 50 year old ones that do. and i definitely would like to see all the petroleum produced be refined and an end value added here. and i really don't care if it is bc or alberta. as in this country you can go to where the jobs are, anytime. unlike some other places in the world.