Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[niner]

I thought this thread was about saving peoples life. I dont underatand how going back in time brings anything relevant to the conversation.

Going back in time helps you remember what you did right and what you did wrong. It's called learning from your mistakes. This new generation doesn't make mistakes cause it can just google any problem they want. No problem solving needed, just google it. Maybe what we need is better cell service so the new riders can google if a hill is safe to play on.

 

[rightsideup]

Going back in time helps you remember what you did right and what you did wrong. It's called learning from your mistakes. This new generation doesn't make mistakes cause it can just google any problem they want. No problem solving needed, just google it. Maybe what we need is better cell service so the new riders can google if a hill is safe to play on.

I agree with what you are saying to an extent even at work the young fellows could only operate the latest technology in surveying making them unproductive when satellite coverage was down . It's nice to have someone in your group who has the ability to backtrack even in areas you may have seldom ridden in. People that have knowledge of the time and where the sun is seldom are at a loss for direction. The older generation has an obligation to pass this on to the Google boys

 

[Depsnolvr]

Awesome discussion everyone, thank you for staying on track and keeping relevant. There are some many great ideas and statements in this thread it will be shame to see it go and it think it is something that we can review for a long time and learn from the messages held in it. (any chance we can make this a sticky?)

I agree that "fixing sledding" may not be the best term but that is what needs to happen. We are preaching safety, AST training and knowledge but the best tool that we can take with us is in between our ears and this has been said by many in this thread. We need to be aware and respectful of ALL the hazards of backcountry use and this needs to be encompassed in our entire culture. But how can we make it so?

Educated and informed decision making need to become standard in the sledding community and the decisions we make need to be based on many factors such as our experience in the backcountry and the local snowpack, the current avalanche hazard, our own level of training, and our preparedness to handle an emergency. If we are lacking any of those mentioned, we need to understand that its time to scale back and ride accordingly.

Thanks for the conversation. Keep riding, keep talking and keep helping your fellow rider.

 

[Chump]

That's exactly what we need to do, learn from our mistakes. I'm sure the people that passed and there families would much rather know someone learned somthing from there death. Why don't we start a thread? Showing pics of people making bad decisions in the back country. Maybe we can all learn somthing this.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

I mentioned in an earlier post (before hearing about the krazy Canadian's passing) was getting the movie guys involved. Fastest way to reach the Google, or hell my generation would be a segment on one or more of the movies. Not just a one off memoir but yearly safety clip. All we see is awesome riding, big air and sweet scenery while listening to kick ass music. Makes us ALL want to head out and slay pow, even in July. I think that be one of the best ways to raise awareness at least. Cause really that's all you can do. Other people have to want to take that step. But they need to know it's there to take.....

If you're reading this it's cause I'm at work and not out sledding

 

[Lem Lamb]

My apoligy for back in time, sleds back then ain't like todays since they barely got you to the warming huts little lone the paly area. Climbing the face of any mountain was point-less since tracks where flat with no paddles, no hp to get up to speed, and what's this thing they call suspention. Ha Ha.

I the mid 1960's the manufactors promoted snowmobiling as a fun sport in the recreational context, late 1970's years was the drill and screw/ bolt on paddles. The mountains in BC and AB had them laying all over the place since they would break off.

Mod sleds really started showing up in the 80's with the home built liquid triples, then the builders heard the voices of riders in the mountains that they needed sleds from factory that would help them get around better,,, Boy,,, did the biulders ever get it going in 2004/5 and every year after with units that could not only make the cabins in 10 minutes, they put units on the mountain sled market that could take you further in this 10 then you could walk all day to return to a cabin.

Who would of ever thunk that new brothers & sisters to sled world could buy this off the show room floor and climb any mountain like nothing.

The sleds today take folks to some intresting places, yes, but it to has some things to consider when riding a unit that kinda wants you to express your limits as well.

Long of the short is that progress has changed snowmobiling for the good and not so good depending on where we see it evolve.

The mountains are awesome too ride and see, but respect them since they are made of stone and take no prisoners.

Back then our fear was getting hurt since we all knew it was a long ways for help, and there was no such thing as helicopter. Those with you were your support team if things went south, and no group of Moms and Dads wanted this to go on under their watching eyes and rules.

 

[Joholio]

It was mentioned to me in a conversation with someone much more involved and knowledgeable in sledding than I earlier today that if we had to pay for SAR maybe better decisions would be made. Not my idea so dont shoot the messenger... but another topic of conversation to ponder. Cheers

 

[fnDan]

Something I found really helpful... they included pictures of the site of the Crowfoot incident. I rode that area for 3 days before the incident. The pictures will help confirm that you made good decisions and didn't go near that type of terrain or you look at them and realize you probably would have rode the same and got lucky. I was wondering if this happened where I had ridden and was I just lucky. I Thoth it was helpful when people posted maps, google earth images and photos of previous incidents. You see the bigger picture that you might miss while on the sled.


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[Lund]

There are trees, with 6' spacings, at 7000'. I agree, that you are not totaly sheltered from the dangers of slides in those conditions. In that same area, I have been minutes behind a slide run across the trail, a mile from the stageing area. That was a few years ago, the last time everyone was thinking they needed to save the world.

Trees anchor the snow. Tree slides are much smaller then open slopes. Tree riding comes with it's own set of dangers though as well, and that's my point. As long as there is a crowd of people saying that your 'no mountain rider' unless you stick to the wide open slopes, the problem won't go away. Might even get worse.

Good luck.

Sounds like the solution is riding flat areas and government intervention? Thats what I take from this.

How about when avy ratings are high, stay off high angle terrain? Nope, ego gets in the way. New to area? Nope, blast over the top of the mountain you just found and into the unknown... Stop and take a minute to LOOK and see where and IF you can safely traverse an area and play! I see few people adjust their plans to slay epic pow, even with warnings and the lot attendant reminding you of the danger. I personally can be happy riding the lower elevations(I know, that makes me a "non-mountain rider", my ego can handle it) when such warnings are obvious, without having to blow by the cabin and head for the biggest scariest hill around like its their first time ever riding with a raging hard on.

CHOICES! ...

I choose to ride again next trip!

Maybe i didn't explain what i mean't very well.
As much as i'm a sledder i also back country ski. Telemark ski and i spend a lot of time in the back country either on sled or ski. I have personally witness on numerous occasions being the amount of time i have spent out there, avalanches come through the trees.
It is correct that the snow is more stable in a tree'd area but it does not mean avalanche danger does not exist. Most avalanches take off from above either because they were triggered by someone or something or occurred naturally because of conditions.
ONE of the mistake people make while sledding in the trees or out in the open is they are not aware of what is above them. Putting them selves unknowingly into danger.
In a tree'd area, IF your up against the mountain you have little to no visibility to what is above you, thus you could be in a danger zone unknowingly. I have seen an avalanche starting point 3 bluff's up a mountain descend through all 3 levels and piling up in the tree line nearly 2,000ft below, taking the tree's with it.
Essentially to avoid avalanches people need to stay and stick to LOW angle'd slopes and hill's, not the mountain's, otherwise they need to become more aware of the environment they are in.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

Something I found really helpful... they included pictures of the site of the Crowfoot incident. I rode that area for 3 days before the incident. The pictures will help confirm that you made good decisions and didn't go near that type of terrain or you look at them and realize you probably would have rode the same and got lucky. I was wondering if this happened where I had ridden and was I just lucky. I Thoth it was helpful when people posted maps, google earth images and photos of previous incidents. You see the bigger picture that you might miss while on the sled.


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Do you have a link to the pic's? I was there the day before the incident and it was all socked in

If you're reading this it's cause I'm at work and not out sledding

 

[rightsideup]

Maybe i didn't explain what i mean't very well.
As much as i'm a sledder i also back country ski. Telemark ski and i spend a lot of time in the back country either on sled or ski. I have personally witness on numerous occasions being the amount of time i have spent out there, avalanches come through the trees.
It is correct that the snow is more stable in a tree'd area but it does not mean avalanche danger does not exist. Most avalanches take off from above either because they were triggered by someone or something or occurred naturally because of conditions.
ONE of the mistake people make while sledding in the trees or out in the open is they are not aware of what is above them. Putting them selves unknowingly into danger.
In a tree'd area, IF your up against the mountain you have little to no visibility to what is above you, thus you could be in a danger zone unknowingly. I have seen an avalanche starting point 3 bluff's up a mountain descend through all 3 levels and piling up in the tree line nearly 2,000ft below, taking the tree's with it.
Essentially to avoid avalanches people need to stay and stick to LOW angle'd slopes and hill's, not the mountain's, otherwise they need to become more aware of the environment they are in.

Thanks for sharing your varied knowledge

 

[Lund]

On a different note, i have a hard time with the AST 1/2 course. These courses are great for intro. and basic knowledge for recreational use ONLY IMO.
With today's sleds and the amount of rider's out there going further beyond, these courses don't cut it. Unfortunately people are complacent with the basic's and with their basic's go into the realm's of advance and extreme's.
Here is a comparison. I have a back country travel and survival training, it cost me $1800 and 6 days of intense studies. Not 2 days, that's how basic it is these courses are. If your serious about back country riding.....get the training up and above the entry level AST courses.

 

[climbmax]

On a different note, i have a hard time with the AST 1/2 course. These courses are great for intro. and basic knowledge for recreational use ONLY IMO.
With today's sleds and the amount of rider's out there going further beyond, these courses don't cut it. Unfortunately people are complacent with the basic's and with their basic's go into the realm's of advance and extreme's.
Here is a comparison. I have a back country travel and survival training, it cost me $1800 and 6 days of intense studies. Not 2 days, that's how basic it is these courses are. If your serious about back country riding.....get the training up and above the entry level AST courses.

Thank You.
As I mentioned 18 pages earlier those "2 hour introductions" are not even close to any sort of certification. Please don't fool yourself or your family by saying you are trained after a 2 hour love it at the dealership. Those are designed to get you into a basic AST1 and beyond. Or sell you the latest Gear.....im not sure actually.
Had a very good correspondence from Lori today and she hit the nail on the head with regards to stepping up every sledders goal of AST2 as the new minimum. She has great ideas to work with Avy Can and will continue to push for all of our benefits. Some messaging by AvCan as well to drive that core group into more AST programs throughout the west.

Please discuss with your pals/friends/family and never surrender.
Im going to go say hi to some of Dan's favorite spots in Revy tomorrow.
Cheers
RS

 

[o zone guy]

Now your talking... i like that... I believe if there was Education a (course) on the terrain (area) Example...Quartz, boulder, turtle, keystone, Eagles pass etc...that your heading into kinda like the sledders guide with a more EXTENSIVE FOUNDATION about the area this would provide VALUABLE KNOWLEDGE... I myself have had the fortune and pleasure to follow guys like RANDY and DARYL BAKER who PROVIDED me with the TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE of the areas and kept the whole group safe, back when avy training wasn't offered to sledders..I AGREE and SUPPORT Randy QUOTE..."Please stop those 2 Hour "avy courses" that people think they are avalanche trained"...AST 1 is just one of the first steps... Theres more to being in the backcountry then just taken an avy course.. YES it is a MUST in this world we live in today..KNOWLEDGE of the AREA and the TERRAIN that your heading into PRICELESS!!!!...EXAMPLE u have your AST 1 course under your BELT... u go to Sunshine Village... they provide u with a General MAP of the AREA,TERRAIN,marked with Green,, Blue, Black runs.. When u arrive at the top of the run it ALSO is marked with green, blue ,black runs.. In an instant u just gained that TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE... For sledders a whole different story?????...MEOW????

the more knowledge regarding snowmobiling the better prepared for any condition thats arises AST 1/2.. terrain.. first aid etc...MEOW!!!

 

[SHREK1]

Some really good responses here and lots of people viewing. Just like everything education and awareness is what it takes to change behaviour, unfortunate part is some you will just never reach. The whole snowmobile industry needs to get on board and ramp up the promoting of back country saftey and awareness as a whole. Biggest issue that I have experienced over the years that I have sledded is that it won't happen to me or if it does I'm ok with it. Some will change and some won't but as an industry all you can do is try. Other than this site and the odd seminar flyer from my dealer there is very little promoting of any sort that crosses my path.

If the sport is to get safer then the behaviours need to be identified and then stratigised on how to reach these groups or individuals. But that usually doesn't get discussed because backlash is pretty rough. If the only thing that comes out of someone's loss is awareness and education to someone else that should be supported.

I just wanted to chime in here because I see lots of bad behaviour out there, have been touched by some losses and probably more to come but I pride myself in keeping my immediate group safe, do my best well at least what I feel comfortable with to educate outside of my immediate group.

What behaviour do do you possess?

 

[gopherchoker]

Guess just some of my thoughts from a flatlander begginner looking in. I took my AST 1 course before going to the mountains (Valemount-Blue River) late December 2013. I have to say before going to the course I was a little worried about avalanches. The course really put the fear of God into me. It was a great tool to have and I retained most of the information that was presented. But as a young adult (24) with no practical experience with deep snow or slopes, it was pretty hard to sit in a classroom and put it in a frame of reference. There is only one way to do that so I borrowed my boss's avy pack/probe/shovel and 1100km later I was there

So to sum it up this is what I did wrong as a first time mountain rider.

1. Out of the riders we rode with (our group of 3 that joined 11 others) I can almost bet there was only 2 of us with our AST 1 -we should of all had it. If we would have been buried I doubt we would have been found by those without it.

2. No professional/ really experienced riders with us. We were mostly all beginners, maybe only 3 had made more than 4 trips. - frankly none of us really had a clue. There was no one to warn us, no one to tell us we were riding possible dangerous areas. I had looked at the avy forecast and tried to determine slopes the best I could but I had 0 real experience. I should have gotten my ast2 but it is a 8-10 hour drive and I didn't know if I'd be back.

3. Our group the first two days was way too big. There were people all over the place. The second day we had to rope half the group (7) sleds out of a dead end creek because they tried heading home and got lost. Pure gong show. The third(last ) day there was only 6 of us and it was way better but still scetchy at times.

4. We never had a safety meaning or a group beacon test. Every one was so fired up we just took off. I had intentions to do one but like an idiot didn't. Half of us had bags and I think(again stupid stupid) we all had beacons and probes. But I doubt any one, other than maybe 1, had any practical experience with any of the gear.

5. Riding with people I didn't know/ couldn't trust. Second day we ended up at a chute, and after a while using my training and weighing the risks, I was semi confident(no frame of reference) so I decided what the hell and gave it a try. No sooner I had turned out than one of our "experienced" riders was nearly beside me and shot way up past me. That was the point I was like F$&@ this. There was no doubt looking back that that was the single most dangerous thing that happened while I was there. Was totally out of my control to. We had being going one at a time up to that point. Being the second youngest I couldn't really tell anyone off so I shrugged it off and stayed away from that yahoo for the rest of the day.


After getting back from the trip through watching my videos, reading here and dootalk, going to brp's seminar, and just running it trough my head, I have since realized how stupid and grossly unprepared we were. I have since decided I'm not going back till I feel I can afford to take a day or two and just practice avy skills. For me that was a major problem. We could only afford 3 days and everyone just wanted to sled(no snow at home). Also I will not go with more than 4 of people I really feel I can trust. Would love to find someone with experience but they are few and far between.


As how how to fix sledding. IMO it has to be a multi pronged approach. It's not just us newbs getting in these situations. But it has to start somewhere. These are my flatland begginner suggestions

1.Discounted avy gear/ AST training with a puchase of a mountain sled. The more people healthy/alive, the more to buy sleds and accessories.

2.sledding films (509,slednecks, thunderstruck,schooled etc). I have enjoyed(it got me back into the sport) and my brother has grown up watching these. They rarely, some never, mention anything about avy safety. If we start teaching the younger generation,like my bro(now 19,has a rev summit wants to go west) in the forms of media that they enjoy, by people they idolize they might realize it's an actual threat it might be cool to know a thing or two about avy safety.

3. Finally common sense and good decision making. This is the toughest one. It's one of the things that you need to be taught/learnd your entire life. Some people just have no fear and no sense of consequence and there is no course to fix that. All you can do is encourage those that have it to use it and improve themselves, but it takes years not days or weeks to do.

In my experience taking more people's money and forcing rules on them only makes them bitter/resentful and care even less.

Anyways that's my.02 so take it or leave it. Hopefully one day I will feel confident enough to to go back. But now with a little one added to the family I really have to weigh the risks. I rather not be hurt by someone's idiotic decision.

 

[TimG]

It seems there's no consensus on what a proper amount of risk is.

When I took an AST 1 course a few years ago, the instructor urged the class to evaluate the level of risk we were comfortable with: a) not be anywhere near avy activity, b) be in an avy but not buried, c) be buried but not injured, d) be buried and dug out with injuries, e) be buried and killed. We were assured that there were no right or wrong responses and advised to chose our riding groups based on shared levels of risk tolerance. It kind of made me laugh.

This type of thinking goes along with the prevalent attitude of today that states that there are no absolutes, no right or wrong. I'm not here to preach a sermon, but at the very least, we have to look at how mountain sledding is viewed by the rest of society, and it seems that the current risk threshold of many mountain sledders is NOT acceptable by the rest of society's standards. We are viewed as a bunch of reckless cowboys who have no regard for human life.

How much risk is ok? If a slope has a one in ten thousand chance of sliding when being climbed, it would seem on the surface to be a low risk proposition. But if a group of 5 riders hits it five times each, now the probability has increased to a one in four hundred chance. Now if that group plays on three slopes a day like that, and they ride 20 days a year, they're going to be involved in an avalanche incident, likely within seven years. They probably think they're very safe, and probably have all their non-sledding friends and family convinced that they've got this avalanche safety thing nailed down, but in reality, they're playing russian roulette. I know that this scenario is a gross oversimplification, but my point is that risk needs to be looked at differently, in the big picture, of practices that engender a lifetime of avalanche-free sledding.

I believe that the only practices that can truly be called safe are ones that will lead to an individual being able to ride in the mountains more than anyone ever would in a lifetime- say 5000 days- without ever being close to being in an avalanche. Not riding one out, not being caught in one but getting out ok, not having it happen an hour after leaving the area, not any kind of near miss, for 5000 riding days. That, to me, is acceptable risk.

Before saying that this is impossible or unrealistic, it was pointed out earlier in this thread that heli-ski operations do a tremendous job of protecting their clients. How is this accomplished, and what does it take to achieve this level of safety? I would like to know. It has to be taught somehow, somewhere. There are also people who live in the mountains and ride upward of a thousand days over a lifetime without being in avalanches. How do they do it?

In the end, I really believe that there needs to be stronger right and wrong messages taught in the avy courses and eventually absorbed into the collective sledding consciousness as good/ bad practices. Put numbers to it ("If you follow "X" practice, your lifespan will be an average of 50 sledding days, therefore it's a bad practice and is not ok!") The message of "it's ok as long as it fits with your values" might be viewed as politically correct, but avalanche incidents keep happening, society in general sees through these kinds of excuses, and mountain sledding gets a pretty bad rap because of it.

 

[lilduke]

Before saying that this is impossible or unrealistic, it was pointed out earlier in this thread that heli-ski operations do a tremendous job of protecting their clients. How is this accomplished, and what does it take to achieve this level of safety? I would like to know. There are also people who live in the mountains and ride upward of a thousand days over a lifetime without being in avalanches. How do they do it?

When you go Heli Skiing, you go with a Guide that knows what they are doing. Pay me 400$ a day(per person) and Ill make sure you live through the day. I have more than 1000 days in the backcountry.

 

[LBZ]

Craig Kelly was a guide and had years of experience in the back country snowboarding. He died in an avalanche near Revelstoke in 2003 along with 6 others.

Don't matter if you are using a motor or not. The risk is always there. Mitigate it and make good choices and with luck you may never see an avalanche no matter how many days you ride.

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[maxwell]

When you go Heli Skiing, you go with a Guide that knows what they are doing. Pay me 400$ a day(per person) and Ill make sure you live through the day. I have more than 1000 days in the backcountry.

You ride by yourself lol I wouldn't hire you sorry