Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[moyiesledhead]

Ya know, I just can't understand how anyone can say with a straight face, that more regulation is what's needed.

Exactly. Keep government the fawk out of my recreation. I recreate to get a way from that chit!

does anyone have numbers that compare per capita deaths of mountain sledding to other things such as ...hunting, hiking, mountain biking, rock climbing, skiing, motor vehicles, cancer death rates.......

I came across a report a few years ago that said more people died from falling off horses than sledding. Wish I could still find it.

 

[pistoncontracting]

You guys are acting like more training is going to fix this but even with training everyone has different risk tolerances. I think there needs to be more incentive for people to get the training and commit to developing their knowledge just doing an AST1 and thinking they're good for the next 20 years isn't going to cut it. I was going back through some documents and realized I haven't done an avy course besides the BRP free one since 2012 that was an eye opener for me.

The shift to more training and better decision making is a huge cultural shift and will take years to be effective. From the many responses here it is clear that those making poor choices do not want to hear about it from their peers. I would like to see a team of avy professionals in every major riding area that travel through the areas and look for bad behaviour and poor decision making with regards to terrain and can offer some on the spot feedback and advice. They are differentiated from Joe Blow rider by their experience and credentials and wear jackets to easily identify them. I'm not taking about a cop figure catching guys speeding on the trail or drinking some beers. They are only their to offer perspective and expertise on avalanche terrain. They have experience in the area and can identify that hey this slope slid last year all the way to the lake and here's a pic of it or this isn't a good place to stop as you're under a cornice and above a terrain trap so you should go eat lunch over there instead. Basically just travel through the zones to spread best practices and have knowledge of the specific area and the safer travel choices and play areas contained in it. If it is coming from someone respected in the industry like Curtis or Jeremy it carries a lot more weight.

So in not taking a refresher course- are you really anymore at risk? Had you not went back and looked, would really have made the difference? I'm not trying to sound like an ass, it's an honest question.

I know of one 'professional', who has intentionally climbed known slide run out paths, in very unstable conditions. And that's just one. People need to remember, that these people are just people too. Didn't one of the av techs get caught in a small slide, and do a recount of the mistakes made??

I dunno- even to a lesser extent, who pays for that? The back country is a big place. Even in a small area, like Fernie. The parking lot can be full, and we won't see or hear a sole.

And no offence, but a good many riders have never heard of Bret Rasmussen, let alone Curtis or Jeremy.

 

[Rotax_Kid]

I very much agree with what you wrote Curtis. It's an uphill battle. As a poster in my office says - "Common sense is rare these days it should be considered a superpower." It's not really far off.

I know this is somewhat of a diversion from the point of the topic, but it's a thought that has been in my mind this winter considering comments in relation to the lack of snow. On S&M, let's face it, the people who post, are very dedicated to the sport compared to the average. I feel we are on average educated more than the generate snowmobiling public. Our expectation level is higher than most. On the flip side of the coin, with a fair amount of disposable income in the prairie provinces over the past few years and machines that are very capable, I feel there's a number of people out there who don't have the same passion for riding - they are out there as a social activity, but they don't get that same enjoyment that some of us do. They are content with riding a few days a year on a trip with a boys and may only be doing it because everyone else they know is. These are the people who we probably have the biggest challenge with. They definitely aren't stupid, but likely don't believe they need to go through all the education, and need all the equipment for only a few trips a year. I'm not singling out a local group of people, but I hear this quite often living 8 hours away from the closest mountain. I understand where they are coming from, and most have likely never had a serious enough brush with mother nature to have full respect or an understanding of what can happen without being properly prepared, but a number aren't willing to invest anymore time than it takes to go to a dealership and buy a machine...or they just aren't aware. How do we educate these people who have a casual interest? Very difficult.

Unfortunately, this group is hard to convince. I doubt they will ever be convinced. You can likely see more of this group the past few years as snow conditions in the lower elevations have sucked and guys are absolutely itching to go riding. Years ago, few would make the drive, nowadays, people have no problem deciding in the morning they will go on a all day drive.

Ironically, I was in the Fernie/Elkford area riding last week. Some of the tracks I saw made my jaw drop. I'm not sure if people feel they are safer riding up the side of a slide path instead of down the middle, but there were a number of slide paths we crossed, where a guy could see a wind lip just itching to drop, yet fresh tracks most of the way up. Locals/out of towners, who knows, whomever it was had a severe lack of intelligence and had little idea that they are not only putting themselves at risk, but those who need to come and dig them out or end up loosing a son/husband/father.


While I'm sure we all do, the first step we can all take is being selective on who we ride with. We need to make sure the people within our riding groups have the education and understanding that in the event of a mishap, you can rely on them. If you can't, your in the wrong riding group. Formal education isn't always the answer, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[Grizzly4323]

As per Avalanche Canada March is statistically the most deadly month for avalanches. Be very aware when you are in the hills.

 

[pistoncontracting]

Ironically, I was in the Fernie/Elkford area riding last week. Some of the tracks I saw made my jaw drop. I'm not sure if people feel they are safer riding up the side of a slide path instead of down the middle, but there were a number of slide paths we crossed, where a guy could see a wind lip just itching to drop, yet fresh tracks most of the way up. Locals/out of towners, who knows, whomever it was had a severe lack of intelligence and had little idea that they are not only putting themselves at risk, but those who need to come and dig them out or end up loosing a son/husband/father.

Honestly, I've seen much the same out there. I think some of what fuels it, is those guys probly have not JUST an airbag, but the BEST air bag. They don't have a good mountain sled, they have the BEST sled. They didn't take the short AST course, they renew it every couple years.

Or like a drug user. OD is never usually the goal, but once your in it, the amount it takes to get high changes.

Or because were the experienced guys used to ride are now tracked up, they are in search of new areas- or the guys that used to be the ones making the impressive lines, need to go farther because machines now are so much better.


Or, maybe some are just in search of the 'purly gates'. Stranger things have happend.

 

[deaner]

I think safety is more in the back of peoples minds, and that has to change. I think it needs to be discussed with the group at the beginning of every ride for sure, and throughout the day. Its too easy to have the attitude of "I have gear and training so we are good". I think we have to keep reminding ourselves. Why do you think safety meetings have become and industry practice? Because they do work.

Another big thing is not getting caught up in group mentality, and having the courage to speak out if people are making bad choices. I remember one time I was out with a great guy (very trained, experienced, has all gear, etc) during high avalanche conditions. We discussed it and made a plan for safe terrain to ride. Then somewhere in the middle of the day he wanted to go across an EXTREMELY dangerous area. I think its easy to get a false feeling of safety when you have been riding half the day and havent seen anything slide. I just reminded him of the plan we made in the morning, and that I was sticking to it.

I cant imagine the feeling of being crushed under snow knowing that I may never see my amazing wife and little boys again. I remind myself of that every time I ride.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

I was lucky enough to sit in on a course a few yrs ago with a group from AB that ride sicamous. They hired one of the top avy guys to put on a course just for them. It wasn't an AST certified course, but a course tailored to the needs of the group. Sitting in a boardroom with 100 other guys to get "AST1" versus sitting around a table with 10 makes a huge difference in retention. The certification doesn't mean jack sh@t if you don't pick up what's being put down. Those guys are far and beyond ahead of what's needed and was a real eye opener for me. This format was waaaaaayyyy better but like anything takes more effort to organize and get your group on board. But this still doesn't get Joe redneck to think about what he's doing. But is it Joe redneck causing the problem? Or complacency? Lots of these guys getting caught are newbs or Joe's, it's the average guys with a bit of skill and a bit of knowledge at the wrong place at the wrong time

 

[tex78]

I know it doesn't cost the club. Was just talking dollar cost in general. SAR needs the locals with the knowledge of the areas to find these guys. What a huge expanse to cover and hats off to the volunteers that help out!! Lent one group my tow strap last week, if they don't have a tow strap between a few guys what else don't they have. Saw one young fella at cabin wearing old work gloves. What's gonna happen to his hands on an overnighter?? Most of it is a can't happen to me attitude. Sometimes it's being in these situations that opens our eyes. Our group had a near night out a few yrs ago and next trip the amount of gear was significantly more. The experience to know better usually comes at the cost of mistakes. Unfortunately sometimes those mistakes come at a higher cost.....

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I agree, I have lent my tow strap out more this year than I have ever used it in any of my groups rides


And yes, the guys with oil feild coveralls, Dunlops, green king gloves lmao are not ready for sh!t if it hits the fan lol

 

[bingo1010]

i try to keep that in my mind when i am out riding as well, sometimes it is hard,, but at the end of the day they are what matter the most to me.... much more than anything else that i have or ever will have

 

[Bnorth]

So in not taking a refresher course- are you really anymore at risk? Had you not went back and looked, would really have made the difference? I'm not trying to sound like an ass, it's an honest question.

I know of one 'professional', who has intentionally climbed known slide run out paths, in very unstable conditions. And that's just one. People need to remember, that these people are just people too. Didn't one of the av techs get caught in a small slide, and do a recount of the mistakes made??

I dunno- even to a lesser extent, who pays for that? The back country is a big place. Even in a small area, like Fernie. The parking lot can be full, and we won't see or hear a sole.

And no offence, but a good many riders have never heard of Bret Rasmussen, let alone Curtis or Jeremy.

I would say yes it does put me at more risk. As much as I try to be aware of hazards there are things that I forget. Partly I don't want to do AST1 again as I want to do AST2 but haven't made it happen yet.

Maybe it's not feasibile in all areas but the bigger areas it is pretty easy to find groups making questionable decisions. I don't know who pays for it, I'm not providing a comprehensive solution here just my thoughts. Undoubtedly a large portion of it will need to be volunteer time. Maybe it can also be funded with a surcharge on trail passes for riders that don't have AST1 training.

 

[deaner]

i try to keep that in my mind when i am out riding as well, sometimes it is hard,, but at the end of the day they are what matter the most to me.... much more than anything else that i have or ever will have

Couldnt agree more. I think about it through the day. Its how I evaluate the terrain I am riding.

 

[lightening1000]

you know what there is a little thing called "common sense" that many lack in life, as many have said here, I have been sledding the back country for 25yrs also and if you lack common sense it doesn't matter what someone tells you.. I teach my boy things every day or every time we ride, he has even came out and said we should leave this area and looks up even in the heavy trees!! And he is just 16.. So I think we can talk about this and that all day long but if your not taught or however you get common sense you will always be that guy pushing the limits and not understanding the consequences..I have been fortunate and hopefully my boy is as fortunate as I was for the last 25 yrs also.

 

[powderhoundbrr]

I just poked my head in for a quick second after quitting snow and mud a couple of years ago as I got out of sledding. The reason I left sledding was because of the dangerous behavior I saw in the back country. So today I was curious what the sledding community was going to say about all the deaths this year. In my youth I spent years doing all the training to become a ski guide. Many days out in the (weeks, months) back country learning from professional guides. Taking advanced courses and mentoring with professionals. In the end I went a different route career wise but after taking avy courses to a very high level I still feel small in the back country and ski conservatively. I sledded pretty carefully too.

Now my 2 cents here.

Very few sledders see the back country as a place where you need to work up to. Everyone just buys a sled and heads into complex terrain blindly. It seems that people think that is their right? It is I guess......Sure you may have a one day AST course and carry all the best safety gear. You may even practice with it (although most people I saw out there I dare say that would not be the case) but in the end for the most part no one is properly trained to access this kind of terrain. I don't think I am either.

A one or 2 day AST course is pretty much useless especially when you ignore most of the things you were taught. And this what I have witnessed over and over again. I sold both sleds and never looked back (I still own a 97 Phazer for ski access).

I am friends with lots of mountain sledders and I see their videos and there are always 4 guys on a hill above a major start zone while the filmer is in the run out. When I was sledding I witnessed a never ending spectacle of dangerous and blatantly dangerous behavior. I was so dismayed with the lack of respect I just couldn't participate anymore.

I have lost friends in avalanches and it sucks (both skiing and sledding).

You guys need to start a major campaign to somehow increase awareness. I don't know how you'll do it but there is going to be way more of this if something doesn't change. Perhaps you need an ambassador that can teach proper snow science? Maybe as enough people die it will sink in? I don't know the answer.

I hate regulation and that kind of thing so it is our right to go play in the hills, I just wish people would use their brains out there.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

Couldnt agree more. I think about it through the day. Its how I evaluate the terrain I am riding.

I'm in the same boat, little kids and wife at home that I want to see at the end of the day. It really factors in to how I ride. And I see it in some of my riding group. One guy with no kids, older not a daredevil by any means but his "risk tolerance" is way higher. It's funny cause that risk tolerance term gets thrown around by safety at work all the time. Most times i think it's B'S but when I relate it to my riding choices and the choices of my pards it makes more sense. It's not that one is a better rider or more daring, just that they accept a bit more risk. If you really want to make an impact on training, get the pros involved. The big names and the film producers. 509, sled necks. To many guys watch this **** and want to be superman. I think that would make the biggest impact, especially on the younger riders. Who doesn't watch them??!!

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[52weekbreak]

I came across a report a few years ago that said more people died from falling off horses than sledding. Wish I could still find it.[/QUOTE]

No sure if this is the report you are thinking of but here is one. Much bigger rider numbers though - 7 million

 

[pistoncontracting]

Snowmobiler Killed In Avalanche In British Columbia | A Mountain Journey

A Size 2 Avalanche Killed A Snowmobiler North Of Shuswap Lake In The Monashee Mountains Near Chase, BC | 2nd Avalanche Fatality In The Shuswap This Week

Crowfoot Mountain, British Columbia – At approximately 11:30 on Sunday, March 13, 2016 a snowmobiler triggered a size 2 slab avalanche in the Crowfoot Mountain area – a popular snowmobile area just north of Shuswap Lake in the Monashees near Chase, British Columbia.

Avalanche Debris | Stock Image
​

The accident happened when three snowmobilers were riding in the Crowfoot Mountain area. One snowmobiler was caught and buried. Shuswap Search and Rescue and a helicopter with three avalanche technicians responded to the incident, assessed the scene and recovered the body.
The North Columbia avalanche forecast from Avalanche.ca reported Considerable danger in the Alpine and Moderate at Treeline and Below Treeline at 6:13 PM on Sunday March 13, 2016. That report called the deadly avalanche a size 2 slab avalanche.
It most likely “failed on the late February layer, occurred on a west facing convex roll at 1830m. The slab was 40-80cm deep, 60m wide and 65m long. The subject was found after more than an hour of probing as rescuers were not able to obtain a transceiver signal. Transceivers are essential equipment; if the subject was wearing a functioning transceiver, it may have made difference.”
This is the second snowmobile related avalanche fatality in British Columbia this week. Another snowmobiler died near Sicamous, BC on March 8, 2016. This is the 9th snowmobile fatality in BC this season.

I'm curious why one would choose to not wear a beacon. Or after making that decision, why ride were you might need it.

 

[Bnorth]

Snowmobiler Killed In Avalanche In British Columbia | A Mountain Journey



I'm curious why one would choose to not wear a beacon. Or after making that decision, why ride were you might need it.

I believe he was wearing one but it was not turned on

 

[Couch]

I agree, I have lent my tow strap out more this year than I have ever used it in any of my groups rides


And yes, the guys with oil feild coveralls, Dunlops, green king gloves lmao are not ready for sh!t if it hits the fan lol

Funny to see 10 guys on shiny new sleds with wraps and matching suits that don't have $5 worth of rope between them.

I'm careful with who i ride with. Usually 3 to 5 people total. Less than 3 we stay in more conservative areas. More than 5 is too many to keep track of. No longer ride with boozers.

We ride in 0 to 3000' (at sea level but still quit steep) so avy risk is a bit less here but still there and we're mindful of it and tend to avoid slopes with large cornices and pay attention to conditions. Check out slopes before we go at it.
Would be nice if a basic avy course was offered here. Like the idea of a good video included with the sleds. You can learn quite a bit from a well produced video .... certainly helped to learn better technique esp in the trees.

Enough regulation as it is.
Common sense is lacking though as a first time rider can jump on the biggest sled / quad / bike without any prior experience. Everyone wants to be a pro from the get go.

BTW nothing wrong with Dunlops. They're tough, warm and if you end up in a creek or slush your feet are dry.

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[tex78]

Funny to see 10 guys on shiny new sleds with wraps and matching suits that don't have $5 worth of rope between them.

I'm careful with who i ride with. Usually 3 to 5 people total. Less than 3 we stay in more conservative areas. More than 5 is too many to keep track of. No longer ride with boozers.

We ride in 0 to 3000' (at sea level but still quit steep) so avy risk is a bit less here but still there and we're mindful of it and tend to avoid slopes with large cornices and pay attention to conditions. Check out slopes before we go at it.
Would be nice if a basic avy course was offered here. Like the idea of a good video included with the sleds. You can learn quite a bit from a well produced video .... certainly helped to learn better technique esp in the trees.

Enough regulation as it is.
Common sense is lacking though as a first time rider can jump on the biggest sled / quad / bike without any prior experience. Everyone wants to be a pro from the get go.

BTW nothing wrong with Dunlops. They're tough, warm and if you end up in a creek or slush your feet are dry.

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But they hold moisture inside and don't wick it away like a Klim boot for example


That one time in 1000 your feet get wet, I Like dry boots and feet

 

[tex78]

Ok time for new add to Curtis's post



With the new addition of a dude killed in a avy today that was alone



What in God's name are people doing out riding alone


F.f.s please, please people.. Quit riding alone


No one can find u if your alone in a avy, Untill it too Friggin late



I'm double sick to my stomach, in two weeks, I just can't get my head around it



Someone mabe explain to me why.....