Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[bobsledder]

Dont know what the answer is. Climbmax said it..go get some training and those info seminars are not training. The ast1 is just introduction as well. I see guys with avy bag doing a lot of stupid stuff. Not sure what they are thinking. A few weeks ago I overhead guys in the cabin talking about there avy bags and trancievers that could mark up to 12 locations! Nice fancy gizmos but no discussion about avoiding the need to use recovery tools at all. Just my opinion but it seems some people may have the best intentions, get the proper equipment, take awareness training but really do not have experience at recognizing conditions and altering plans based on that. They dont know what they dont know.

Prior to getting into sledding i have some experience in the lizard range and south rockies with avalanche control. We used a combination of ski cutting and hurling explosives onto cornices and although I think I may recognize snow conditions and weather that makes it risky a person never knows 100 percent. Having seen some devastating slides and consequenses my fear keeps me in check. Perhaps people that havent had that experience dont appreciate the chances they are taking.

 

[maxwell]

Lobby government to make ast1 and gear a legal requirement. It would look good on us for taking the initiative of recognizing the weakness of our sport and trying to correct it. There are drawbacks to this. First being it may deter the growth of the sport as it would really stop people from "checking it out" and also young kids and families that are responsible and just want to take their families up for a tour out of avalanche terrain. Allan creek cabin lakes for example. I see a lot of families riding that part and never go any further. Perhaps certain areas in BC could be deemed as not requiring ast1 based on an assessment from the Canadian avalanche centre. I know in my parts that doesn't exist but I'm sure there are areas in bc that are gentle rolling hills where new people could start without requiring all the training

 

[bobsledder]

A smaller sled won't necessarily force you to stay out of avy terrain but it sure will make you work harder to get there. The new sleds will take you into places in the blink of an eye that we used to fight all day to get into. It also forces you to learn riding techniques rather than rely on power alone.

There really is not one answer to this issue at all but a variety of things including education, leading by example and making an attempt to help others realize they may be doing something that is extremely high risk is a damn good start.

The trail up into avalanche terrain is groomed. Doesn't take much of a machine to get there.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

I like Keith browns suggestion of lower cost for AST holders on the trail passes. Would make your money back on cost of course. But it's not just avy savy as I can see. Two of the fatalities were related to riding alone. Lots of SAR call outs for lost/unprepared people. Education is key but getting it across is the problem. Sadly enough natural selection has a way of fixing things it's own way.....

 

[Stickman70]

Not sure if it can be done. With the help of the OEM's, incorporate ast1 in the price of machines (in the west) with displacement of 600cc or more and track length of 140 or more. This comes as a certificate to one of the local providers. Now it's back in the hands of the consumer and if they don't want to take the course, they're the ones losing money.
Just a thought.

I agree! The OEM's have to come up with a plan that includes the avy training providers. Maybe the avy providers can start the conversation with the OEM's to get them thinking about it. They (OEM's) are the ones building the machines that go where they go with little effort. They should be taking responsibility for the products they send to market and show the consumer they are willing to step up and help with some training.
Gone are the days of trying to top Turbo Mtn on a modded 670 with a 136 or spending all day just trying to get to the hill!

 

[snopro]

Great thread Curtis. I think a lot of this stems from a generation of riders that feel they are bigger than the sport and are indestructible. Its not just avalanche training, its trail manners, its drinking and riding, its a lot of things. Its a "me'' generation. This won't happen to "me". I paid my trail fee and "I" will ride it anyway I feel like even though the trail fee guy asked "me" to drive slow to save the trail. "I" don't have time for avy training because "I" am a busy guy. "I" will drink at the cabin because drinking doesn't affect "my" judgement, and the list goes on and on. If you want to get peeps to better stewards of our sport then legislate everything. Its probably the only language they will ever understand.

 

[snopro]

I agree! The OEM's have to come up with a plan that includes the avy training providers. Maybe the avy providers can start the conversation with the OEM's to get them thinking about it. They (OEM's) are the ones building the machines that go where they go with little effort. They should be taking responsibility for the products they send to market and show the consumer they are willing to step up and help with some training.
Gone are the days of trying to top Turbo Mtn on a modded 670 with a 136 or spending all day just trying to get to the hill!

Its not the OEM's sole responsibility? Do the auto manufacturers force peeps to take driving lessons or tests? No. Its the governments responsibility and it should be here to. Take training if you want a backcountry license. Plain and simple.

 

[Stickman70]

I know the over whelming majority of long time sledders have no avalanche training. "They have years of mountain sledding experienced they don't need avalanche training" Hey guess who is teaching their kids. I don't give a sh!t how many years you have ridden in the mountains. The game changed ten years ago. Its simple if you are not taking reoccurring avalanche training your unnecessarily risking your life. More importantly you are risking the lives of the people you ride with. Here are my ideas on "Fixing Sledding" 1) Snowmobile clubs raise trail fees and membership's and give discounts to AST1 and AST2 holders or rebates who complete training 2) Snowmobile clubs wave all trail fees for students in AST training 3) Manufactures offer rebates/discounts on sleds intended for mountain riding to AST1/2 holders. 4) Avalanche Canada does an amazing job with the funds they have, but they are under funded. All user groups need to contribute more and canvas Ottawa for more funding. Maybe now is a good time to lobby. Our Prime Minster lost his brother to a avalanche. Pubic awareness is important. Imaging a mother watching TV and is told her husband is risking the lives of here kids every time he takes them sledding. See how that works out for him.

The Calgary Snowmobile Club has been reimbursing AST1 / AST2 courses for years already. This can be taken advantage of every two years you are a club member so it's great for refresher courses as well. I think it is a great idea and more clubs should be doing this for the sake of their members.
The info is on the first page of their website.

 

[bobsledder]

Its not the OEM's sole responsibility? Do the auto manufacturers force peeps to take driving lessons or tests? No. Its the governments responsibility and it should be here to. Take training if you want a backcountry license. Plain and simple.

Next thing you know we will have some bs card you have to get like the boating license which is a total joke. A waste of money and time.

 

[slededjr]

Apparently common sense just isn't that common any more....
See so many of these situations all the time. Scary indeed. Try to intervein and they get all bent on of shape. Something definitely needs to be done.

 

[ducati]

The trail up into avalanche terrain is groomed. Doesn't take much of a machine to get there.

Agreed but how many people have been lost to avalanches lately beside the groomed trail up to the cabin? There are many places on the way up that should not be touched either but I would say the majority of deaths have been further back into terrain that was not easily accessible 15 or 20 years ago.

Staying off of the terrain is where the education and experience part comes into play.

 

[Stickman70]

Its not the OEM's sole responsibility? Do the auto manufacturers force peeps to take driving lessons or tests? No. Its the governments responsibility and it should be here to. Take training if you want a backcountry license. Plain and simple.

You are right, it's not the OEM's sole responsibility, but they sure could be a leader in getting the message out.
The auto manufacturers don't force you to take driving lessons, but they sure have them available if you want to take them. You have a Shelby, you should know this.

 

[pcledrew]

Step 1: Begin requiring AST1 as a prerequisite to access any VARDA or other club controlled riding areas.

 

[Megrizzly]

I think we should add in more than just avalanche safety into the equation. There are problems faced other than the mountains on the trails on the prairies or eastern Canada. Alcohol usage, excessive speeding down trails, cutting corners, traveling on unsafe ice or too quickly across unknown areas, trespassing, closing of riding areas or trails, lack of enforcement, etc. Why do only recreational toys (aside from motorcycles) not require any sort of licensing, driver training? Any drivers license requires several hours of commitment learning, practical application, etc, so why can't recreation toys be the same to reduce these issues to ultimately improve our sport and the perception of recreational sports.

Simply put, if we want to play, than taking the time to acquire some sort of legislated licensing or learning would be worth it in the long-term. Honestly, we've blew our grace period and it is important to remember that these recreation activities are a PRIVILEGE, not a right.

 

[niner]

Agreed but how many people have been lost to avalanches lately beside the groomed trail up to the cabin? There are many places on the way up that should not be touched either but I would say the majority of deaths have been further back into terrain that was not easily accessible 15 or 20 years ago.

Staying off of the terrain is where the education and experience part comes into play.

21 years ago I had a vmax4. It went everywhere the modern sleds go. And yes I got caught in a Avalanche and had to dig out 2 friends. If that Avalanche had come down 30 minutes sooner there would have been 20 guys buried. Happened at Gorman lake in the middle of November. Have never forgotten that day. The mountains haven't changed and the sleds really haven't changed as much as people really think. What has changed is the amount of sledders on the hill. You can't force people to get educated they have to want to learn.

 

[bobsledder]

Agreed but how many people have been lost to avalanches lately beside the groomed trail up to the cabin? There are many places on the way up that should not be touched either but I would say the majority of deaths have been further back into terrain that was not easily accessible 15 or 20 years ago.

Staying off of the terrain is where the education and experience part comes into play.

I assisted with recovery of two beside the trail over 20 years ago. Little yamaha phazors and only a few miles from the parking lot. It is all about the conditions not the sleds that can get you in trouble. I could ride a 250 bravo to the area the latest incident happened last week in my riding area.

 

[tex78]

frankly tex I know you and I took the 1 day companion rescue and it may have refreshed you skills but if warn someone to not climb that hill and get ignored then other decisions need to be made

Yes and unfortunately get out of there is the one a guy has to make

 

[tex78]

I like Keith browns suggestion of lower cost for AST holders on the trail passes. Would make your money back on cost of course. But it's not just avy savy as I can see. Two of the fatalities were related to riding alone. Lots of SAR call outs for lost/unprepared people. Education is key but getting it across is the problem. Sadly enough natural selection has a way of fixing things it's own way.....

The 25 bucks for a trail pass that the club gets is pretty close to a break even scenario, unfortunately there's enough people that think the trail pass is too much, and to have two different passes to sell would be time consuming, and the pass seller is getting paid peanuts to stand there allready


Mabe a season pass to give a discount for a ast1 or more I could see

 

[broke'n'nuts]

The 25 bucks for a trail pass that the club gets is pretty close to a break even scenario, unfortunately there's enough people that think the trail pass is too much, and to have two different passes to sell would be time consuming, and the pass seller is getting paid peanuts to stand there allready


Mabe a season pass to give a discount for a ast1 or more I could see

It's a tough one. And it doesn't even touch on the guys coming in the back way not paying sweet eff all. But a few bucks more a trail pass versus cost of a SAR call out....isn't going to be an easy answer that's for sure

 

[tex78]

I think we should add in more than just avalanche safety into the equation. There are problems faced other than the mountains on the trails on the prairies or eastern Canada. Alcohol usage, excessive speeding down trails, cutting corners, traveling on unsafe ice or too quickly across unknown areas, trespassing, closing of riding areas or trails, lack of enforcement, etc. Why do only recreational toys (aside from motorcycles) not require any sort of licensing, driver training? Any drivers license requires several hours of commitment learning, practical application, etc, so why can't recreation toys be the same to reduce these issues to ultimately improve our sport and the perception of recreational sports.

Simply put, if we want to play, than taking the time to acquire some sort of legislated licensing or learning would be worth it in the long-term. Honestly, we've blew our grace period and it is important to remember that these recreation activities are a PRIVILEGE, not a right.

I agree somewhat , but don't u think nowadays that we are clamped down enough with all the crap - sissies the world has come to

For example, kids needs some life lessons to deal with to thicken there skin, so when they get out in the real world they can deal with it, where there is so many whinny, little, spoiled, play games, do nothing kids it makes me sick