Kanedog discovers a Clutching CATastrophy, again. Pics!

[FastFarmer]

Thinking that Kanedog is going for a gag payment from AC...with all this bad press would imagine he could get a fair chunk of change..

 

[kanedog]

Thinking that Kanedog is going for a gag payment from AC...with all this bad press would imagine he could get a fair chunk of change..

I actually thought about that scenario. Yea, it’d be cool to get a fantasy huge gag payment, hush money, bribe, sleds, motors, whatever. Then I thought, there’s no way I could let the people down that support me on this site and a few on Sw. I have a good fan base on S&M. I couldn’t live with selling out.

If it happened, I would post up the details of the phone call or if it was in writing, I’d post that bish up.

Don’t forget to post up y‘alls cracks and yer friends cracks. The more crack the merrier.

There’s just too many sleds owners that are gonna pay for repairs on these Arctic Cracks for too many years and it will never end or be fixed if I fold. Fawk’em. Y’all got my word. My word is worth more than a stupid sled. Cheers ya homos.

Btw-I’m in this freezing, snowing hell called Edmonton rt now. What a snow laden, snowstormin’ chitthole. Ahahahahaha.

 

[mountianguy]

Arctic crack???

I believe that is plumbers crack

 

[hbar218]

Btw-I’m in this freezing, snowing hell called Edmonton rt now. What a snow laden, snowstormin’ chitthole. Ahahahahaha.

I sure hope you bought a return ticket and not a one way.....

 

[acesup800]

Clutch issue? Maybe. A few bolts backed out and 3 or 4 photo's of cracks from the internet and now you are going to sink Arctic Cat?? I do admit this is a humorous thread. lol

 

[pfi572]

Anyone old enough to remember the 700 wildcat ? Lol
Had a 1990 and clutch needed replacing at 300 miles due to it cracking up .
Complete junk as they vibrated so bad . Comet clutch’s back then .
Made good power though . Just a bit of porting and SLP twins and see you later . Lol

 

[Luke The Drifter]

Anyone old enough to remember the 700 wildcat ? Lol
Had a 1990 and clutch needed replacing at 300 miles due to it cracking up .
Complete junk as they vibrated so bad . Comet clutch’s back then .
Made good power though . Just a bit of porting and SLP twins and see you later . Lol
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My first sled was a ‘93 550efi ext mountain cat with those plastic bolt on paddles and ski skins. That picture brings back memories! Never blew up the clutch, just blew a belt. Surprised it made enough power to do that lol

 

[jpmez69]

Clutch issue? Maybe. A few bolts backed out and 3 or 4 photo's of cracks from the internet and now you are going to sink Arctic Cat?? I do admit this is a humorous thread. lol

Back when I worked on lots of cats and poo's in the mid 90's. Here's my take, I always found the poo's were mechanically sound by design but lacked the fit and finish of the cat of that same time period. I had dozens of machines to compare side by side. I would dare to say that the Cat build, quality and overall package back then was better then what is offered now. There is no question that Cat has been struggling for a while and this is apparent in their QC given the budgets they've had to work with in the last 4 years. Performance wise there on the right track .....now they have to build a high quality product that is expected.

 

[Catman10]

I for one think Kanedog is onto something here, love the conspiracy theory, as an adder to him I own a 2017 Sidewinder which is the exact same chassis but obviously with a different engine and clutches. I have my sled completely torn down on a refresh right now and cannot find any stress cracks or issues anywhere that he has noted, hmmmmm. 100 more horserspower and no issues anywhere on the chassis, I support his thesis and will back it even help when the men in Black come looking for him!

 

[Caper11]

I do know people who have had the clutches come apart on their cats, I do not know of anyone who have had cracked chassis.

Does anyone personally know of any cases other than pics on the internet?
Bad QC on parts, impacts etc can contribute to cracks. We saw it on the G4 and people said they did not hit anything.

 

[lilduke]

I do know people who have had the clutches come apart on their cats, I do not know of anyone who have had cracked chassis.

Does anyone personally know of any cases other than pics on the internet?
Bad QC on parts, impacts etc can contribute to cracks. We saw it on the G4 and people said they did not hit anything.

Yeah that is my friends pictures a couple pages back.

 

[SUMMIT TREE]

I have a 2017 king cat with team clutching. I was putting the clutch kit in tonight and found a potential problem with this theory of the KBI. Perhaps Im missing something here, but what I understand the claim of the problem to be is as follows: when the clutch is fully shifted Ie: sheaves closest together as they will get ( say 1:1 ratio) which is normal, then its the cover that is taking the full brunt of the flyweights attempting to shift even further. As to say its the force of the flyweights that are stressing and damaging the cover ultimately/potentially causing the clutch to come apart when the cover fails. I cannot speak to anything except my sled but I assume the other cat primarys are the same as the one I have on my King cat. I see what the KBI is talking about, If you push the primary clutch sheaves together they do indeed hit the cover bushing which is what stops the sheaves from moving closer together. This however is Not putting excessive stresses on the cover, during normal operation the clutch halves do not come anywhere near hitting that bushing. When i push the sheaves fully together with the cover off and no spring installed that puts the Belt half ways or maybe more past the rim of the sheave. With the cover on and no spring sheaves together the belt is still sticking way out of the primary by nearly half the belt thickness. So during normal operation there is no point where the clutches are that close to each other. When i put the belt flush with the top of the primary’s rim there is a good 1/8 inch before the bushing contacts. This is All based on my assumption that the belt doesn’t ride half way out of the primary at full shift. Ive never actually seen for my self on this King cat, but on my summit 3/4 of an inch below the rim of the primary equals approx 1:1 ratio, you would be lucky to achieve getting the belt even flush, Nevermind 1/2 way above the rim...... these are just my observations and could be way out to lunch. Who knows. I attempted to put a picture in with this.... it may or may not be here. Not sure till I post

 

[mountianguy]

I have a 2017 king cat with team clutching. I was putting the clutch kit in tonight and found a potential problem with this theory of the KBI. Perhaps Im missing something here, but what I understand the claim of the problem to be is as follows: when the clutch is fully shifted Ie: sheaves closest together as they will get ( say 1:1 ratio) which is normal, then its the cover that is taking the full brunt of the flyweights attempting to shift even further. As to say its the force of the flyweights that are stressing and damaging the cover ultimately/potentially causing the clutch to come apart when the cover fails. I cannot speak to anything except my sled but I assume the other cat primarys are the same as the one I have on my King cat. I see what the KBI is talking about, If you push the primary clutch sheaves together they do indeed hit the cover bushing which is what stops the sheaves from moving closer together. This however is Not putting excessive stresses on the cover, during normal operation the clutch halves do not come anywhere near hitting that bushing. When i push the sheaves fully together with the cover off and no spring installed that puts the Belt half ways or maybe more past the rim of the sheave. With the cover on and no spring sheaves together the belt is still sticking way out of the primary by nearly half the belt thickness. So during normal operation there is no point where the clutches are that close to each other. When i put the belt flush with the top of the primary’s rim there is a good 1/8 inch before the bushing contacts. This is All based on my assumption that the belt doesn’t ride half way out of the primary at full shift. Ive never actually seen for my self on this King cat, but on my summit 3/4 of an inch below the rim of the primary equals approx 1:1 ratio, you would be lucky to achieve getting the belt even flush, Nevermind 1/2 way above the rim...... these are just my observations and could be way out to lunch. Who knows. I attempted to put a picture in with this.... it may or may not be here. Not sure till I post

Thanks for doing this, I had a similar plan but don't have time right now. This makes total sense to me. It would be interesting to check where on the primary the belt length will allow the max shift?

 

[Teth-Air]

I have a 2017 king cat with team clutching. I was putting the clutch kit in tonight and found a potential problem with this theory of the KBI. Perhaps Im missing something here, but what I understand the claim of the problem to be is as follows: when the clutch is fully shifted Ie: sheaves closest together as they will get ( say 1:1 ratio) which is normal, then its the cover that is taking the full brunt of the flyweights attempting to shift even further. As to say its the force of the flyweights that are stressing and damaging the cover ultimately/potentially causing the clutch to come apart when the cover fails. I cannot speak to anything except my sled but I assume the other cat primarys are the same as the one I have on my King cat. I see what the KBI is talking about, If you push the primary clutch sheaves together they do indeed hit the cover bushing which is what stops the sheaves from moving closer together. This however is Not putting excessive stresses on the cover, during normal operation the clutch halves do not come anywhere near hitting that bushing. When i push the sheaves fully together with the cover off and no spring installed that puts the Belt half ways or maybe more past the rim of the sheave. With the cover on and no spring sheaves together the belt is still sticking way out of the primary by nearly half the belt thickness. So during normal operation there is no point where the clutches are that close to each other. When i put the belt flush with the top of the primary’s rim there is a good 1/8 inch before the bushing contacts. This is All based on my assumption that the belt doesn’t ride half way out of the primary at full shift. Ive never actually seen for my self on this King cat, but on my summit 3/4 of an inch below the rim of the primary equals approx 1:1 ratio, you would be lucky to achieve getting the belt even flush, Nevermind 1/2 way above the rim...... these are just my observations and could be way out to lunch. Who knows. I attempted to put a picture in with this.... it may or may not be here. Not sure till I post

What you say makes sense. My question is: If you have a belt explode will the resulting smash that the cover experiences be enough to explain the clutch failures that are being talked about? You say the belt is the limiting factor to the sheave movement but what happens when the belt is suddenly not there?

 

[SUMMIT TREE]

Not sure what would happen? I imagine it would/could certainly smack the the cover’s bushing in that scenario. If you look at post #3 it shows the primary failed, and the belt fully intact.

 

[Teth-Air]

Not sure what would happen? I imagine it would/could certainly smack the the cover’s bushing in that scenario. If you look at post #3 it shows the primary failed, and the belt fully intact.

And I am not hearing about a lot of belt failures. It would be interesting if guys with failures have indeed exploded belts previously.

 

[kanedog]

The KBI is requesting more pics of 2018, 2019 and 2020’s Arctic Cat Alpha parts failures. If you know someone who has had a parts failure and pics, post it here. Or if you like to fly under the radar, pm me a pic and a little info. Year, mileage and how the dealer dealt with it.

I’m gonna need more evidence to solidly solidify the skull duggery.

No guarantees anything will happen or even if I will take this any further than S&M. If I have overwhelming evidence it may push things along quicker, faster, better. Help a brother out would’ya!

Cheers mofos

 

[kanedog]

KBI new evidence uncovered! Three nifty new thought provoking pieces of the puzzle.

KBI piece of evidence number one-Report of glue coming apart on the Alpha Rail.

The bonding agent, glue for short, is a highly engineered glue designed to bond two pieces of metal. It is almost as good as a single piece of metal. When combined with rivets, it’s as if the rail is one continuous piece of metal. If the glue fails, the strength is decreased and the rivets take the stress that the glue was taking. The stress is transferred to say, three small rivets. Failure, aka cracking, follows fairly quickly. The point with the most stress will crack/fail first and now we have a cracked rail.

The concern is that the glue let go because of harmonics. It certainly isn’t stress because the glue has been extensively tested. What the glue factory didn’t test for was harmonics. Harmonics are causing the glue to fail with cracking soon to follow.

KBI piece of evidence number two-Reports of manifold exhaust springs breaking. These are basically pieces of metal in a constant state of stress. The springs are pulled apart and stretched between the manifold and pipe. We can recall that most failure points have occurred at the most stressed point of the sled. Remember the tunnel cracking at the chaincase? Remember the cracking of the Torque Control Link(TCL), the approximate 4” x 14” piece of 1/4” aluminum that attaches harmonic motor to the frame. The TCL is directly bolted to motor. The TCL is directly connected to jack shaft which is connected by a chain to the bottom gear which is made from Aluminum. Harmonics meets aluminum bottom gear and quickly eats away at the aluminum gear making a nice gray looking oil sludge and worn out teeth. The harmonics are transferred to the thick chaincase which is attached to the tunnel by two pieces of thin aluminum. Not surprisingly, the thin pieces of aluminum are cracking. Now the harmonics are travelling down the tunnel, through the four suspension mount bolts, some bolts are backing off. Now it goes into the suspension. Guess what gives now? Yep, the glue fails. Now the glue load is transferred to small rivets and boom, cracka lacka at the weakest point again.

It’s like watching electricity flow. You can follow the path of the harmonics and at each weak point along the way, damage happens.

Let’s follow the path of destruction shall we? Remember the reports of failure and how the harmonics are leaving the motor and flowing outward at each stop we make.

1. Primary clutch-fails
2. Secondary bolt backing out-causes clutch sheaves to come apart.
3. TCL cracks. How the heck does one crack 1/4” thick aluminum? Why is the TCL now made of carbon fibre? It’s been advertised as two lbs lighter. Why would a company use expensive carbon fibre compared to cheap aluminum to save just two pounds. Profit margin is king so this move is highly suspect. It’s humorous as they didn’t advertise a 1.3 gain by adding the bandaid faux harmonic balancer aka steel ring bolted to the the primary fixed sheave. I feel kinda lied to.
4. Brake rotor nuts backing off. Connected to tunnel thru the jack shaft bearing.
5. Aluminum bottom gear
6. Brake rotor nutz. The trackshaft is getting harmonics from both sides so I suspect that’s why a nut recall was issued. This issue probably showed up fairly quickly.
7. Tunnel cracking at chaincase attachment point.
8. Bolts backing out of suspension at tunnel attachment point.
9. Glue failing
10. Rails cracking.

Man that’s crazy when you follow the crack route. It’s so clear now how it’s going down.

KBI piece of evidence three. Jaws now makes their Ctec2 pipes with a thicker gauge steel. Could the reason be reports of the pipe cracking? It wouldn’t be Jaws’ fault of the pipe cracking. It’d be Harmonics.

Let’s follow the path of Harmonics shall we? We will start at the exhaust ports this time.

1. Manifold nuts backing off 2. Manifold studs coming out instead of nut coming off. 3. Exhaust springs breaking 4. Pipe cracking, hence Jaws thicker gauge pipes for Ctec2.

Cat needs to hire me to test ride their prototypes. I would drive the engineers nutz! Haha


The above are my beliefs.

 

[Bnorth]

KBI new evidence uncovered!

KBI has received one report of glue coming apart on the Alpha Rail.

The bonding agent, glue for short, is a highly engineered glue designed to bond two pieces of metal. It is almost as good as a single piece of metal. When combined with rivets, it’s as if the rail is one continuous piece of metal. If the glue fails, the strength is decreased and the rivets take the stress that the glue was taking. The stress is transferred to say, three small rivets. Failure, aka cracking, follows fairly quickly. The point with the most stress will crack/fail first and now we have a cracked rail.

The big issue is that the glue let go because of harmonics. It certainly isn’t stress because the glue has been extensively tested. What the glue factory didn’t test for was harmonics. Harmonics are causing the glue to fail with cracking soon to follow.

A second piece of evidenciary value is reports of manifold exhaust springs breaking. These are basically pieces of metal in a constant state of stress. The springs are pulled apart and stretched between the manifold and pipe. We can recall that most if cracks so far have occurred at the most stressed point of the sled. Remember the tunnel cracking at the chaincase? Remember the cracking of the TCL, the approximate 4” x 14” piece of 1/4” aluminum that attaches harmonic motor to the frame. The TCL is directly bolted to motor. The TCL is directly connected to jack shaft which is connected by a chain to the bottom gear which is made from Aluminum. Harmonics meets aluminum bottom gear and quickly eats away at the aluminum gear making a nice gray looking oil sludge and worn out teeth. The harmonics are transferred to the thick chaincase which is attached to the tunnel by two pieces of thin aluminum. Not surprisingly, the thin pieces of aluminum are cracking. Now the harmonics are travelling down the tunnel, through the four suspension mount bolts, into the suspension. Guess what gives now? Yep, the glue fails. Now the glue load is transferred to small rivets and boom, cracka lacka at the weakest point again.

It’s like watching electricity flow. You can follow the path of the harmonics and at each weak point along the way, damage happens.

Let’s follow the path of destruction shall we? Remember the reports of failure and how the harmonics are leaving the motor and flowing outward at each stop we make.

1. Primary clutch-fails
2. Secondary bolt backing out-causes clutch sheaves to come apart.
3. TCL cracks. How the heck does one crack 1/4” thick aluminum? Why is material now made of carbon fibre? It’s been advertised as two lbs lighter. Why would a company use expensive carbon fibre compared to cheap aluminum to save just two pounds. It’s humorous as they didn’t advertise a 1.3 gain by adding the bandaid faux harmonic balancer aka steel ring bolted to the the primary fixed sheave. I feel kinda lied to.
4. Brake rotor nuts backing off. Connected to tunnel thru the jack shaft bearing.
5. Aluminum bottom gear
6. Brake rotor nutz. The trackshaft is getting harmonics from both sides so I suspect that’s why a nut recall was issued. This issue probably showed up fairly quickly.
7. Tunnel cracking at chaincase attachment point.
8. Bolts backing out of suspension at tunnel attachment point.
9. Glue failing
10. Rails cracking.

Man that’s crazy when you follow the crack route. It’s so clear now how it’s going down.

I think you need to switch strains. All of these parts are isolated from each other. Engine is on rubber mounts, TCL has isolators, and the rail is literally supported on shocks from the chassis.

 

[lilduke]

think bnorth might be right. I think it's just mass produced junk that falls apart like all mass produced junk does.