Kanedog discovers a Clutching CATastrophy, again. Pics!

[kanedog]

KD you didn't get suicided yet that means you aren't creating enough of a stink keep up the good fight

Well in the spirit of not being suicided and stinkin’ up this thread, check out this theory. It’s gonna blow your mind. Here it is followed by an explanation. I can’t make this chit up. It just keeps coming to me. My brain is so weird.

Hypothesis-The cracking Alpha rail is caused by harmonics. Yes, you just read that. Let’s quickly delve into this.

1. The Alpha Rail went through rigorous testing.
2. There were few failures then. There are failures now.
3. If there were many failures, a brace or strengthening would have been done at the R&D level.
4. Some broken rail Alpha owners can’t recall hitting anything. Cat claims the Monorail is stronger than a two rail system.
5. Many Alpha riders enjoy big air time and the rail doesn’t fail(notice the rhyme rt there brah!)
6. Damage to components from harmonics occur over time. Failure is not usually immediate and is sometimes unpredictable in terms of time and location.
7. One could safely say damage would occur within four years.
8. Some mountain riders ride less than ten rides in a year.
9. Component damage could begin within a year but not be visible to the naked eye.
10. Is there a correlation changing from a four year warranty to a one warranty and unpredictable component failure?

This post is brought to you by the KBI(Kanedog Bureau of Investigation).

 

[jpmez69]

Well in the spirit of stinkin up this thread, check out this theory. It’s gonna blow your mind. Here it is followed by an explanation. I can’t make this chit up. It just keeps coming to me. My brain is so weird.

Hypothesis-The cracking Alpha rail is caused by harmonics. Yes, you just read that. Let’s quickly delve into this.

1. The Alpha Rail(AR) went through rigorous testing.
2. There were few failures.
3. If there were many failures, a brace or strengthening would have been done at the R&D level.
4. Some owners can’t recall a big hit occurring.
5. Many riders enjoy big air time and the rail doesn’t fail(notice the rhyme rt there brah)
5. Damage to components from harmonics occur over time. Failure is not usually immediate.
6. The time when a component fails is unpredictable.

Sooooo.....what you're saying is that every individual part that makes up a cat will then become two parts over time? Ya.....I can totally see that, being a cat product. I didn't think I would ever say this but, I think you're on to something.

 

[snopro]

Well in the spirit of not being suicided and stinkin’ up this thread, check out this theory. It’s gonna blow your mind. Here it is followed by an explanation. I can’t make this chit up. It just keeps coming to me. My brain is so weird.

Hypothesis-The cracking Alpha rail is caused by harmonics. Yes, you just read that. Let’s quickly delve into this.

1. The Alpha Rail went through rigorous testing.
2. There were few failures then. There are failures now.
3. If there were many failures, a brace or strengthening would have been done at the R&D level.
4. Some broken rail Alpha owners can’t recall hitting anything. Cat claims the Monorail is stronger than a two rail system.
5. Many Alpha riders enjoy big air time and the rail doesn’t fail(notice the rhyme rt there brah!)
6. Damage to components from harmonics occur over time. Failure is not usually immediate and is sometimes unpredictable in terms of time and location.
7. One could safely say damage would occur within four years.
8. Some mountain riders ride less than ten rides in a year.
9. Component damage could begin within a year but not be visible to the naked eye.
10. Is there a correlation changing from a four year warranty to a one warranty and unpredictable component failure?

This post is brought to you by the KBI(Kanedog Bureau of Investigation).

Or they could have outsourced mass production of the rail to the lowest bidding vendor and got bit? (See 2008 Rev XP driveshafts)

 

[E-Zmoke]

Well in the spirit of not being suicided and stinkin’ up this thread, check out this theory. It’s gonna blow your mind. Here it is followed by an explanation. I can’t make this chit up. It just keeps coming to me. My brain is so weird.

Hypothesis-The cracking Alpha rail is caused by harmonics. Yes, you just read that. Let’s quickly delve into this.

1. The Alpha Rail went through rigorous testing.
2. There were few failures then. There are failures now.
3. If there were many failures, a brace or strengthening would have been done at the R&D level.
4. Some broken rail Alpha owners can’t recall hitting anything. Cat claims the Monorail is stronger than a two rail system.
5. Many Alpha riders enjoy big air time and the rail doesn’t fail(notice the rhyme rt there brah!)
6. Damage to components from harmonics occur over time. Failure is not usually immediate and is sometimes unpredictable in terms of time and location.
7. One could safely say damage would occur within four years.
8. Some mountain riders ride less than ten rides in a year.
9. Component damage could begin within a year but not be visible to the naked eye.
10. Is there a correlation changing from a four year warranty to a one warranty and unpredictable component failure?

This post is brought to you by the KBI(Kanedog Bureau of Investigation).

KBI,

You might very well be into something or I mean onto something. I understand what your trying to say however harmonics is the incorrect wording for your theory.

Forced Vibrations & Resonance would be a more practical theory rather then harmonics.

A periodic force driving a harmonic oscillator at its natural frequency produces resonance. The less damping a system has, the higher the amplitude of the forced oscillations near resonance. The more damping a system has, the broader response it has to varying driving frequencies. Thus in this situation the primary acting as the periodic force creating the harmonic oscillator.

From my experience vibration would equal to bolts backing out and coming lose not cracking of a rail...I have experienced this numerous times on this chassis where bolts just back out. Secondary bolts backing out, used to be a big thing yes there is a recall on this as well, from a few years ago.

Pro tip of the day Cat uses the same thread pitch and length on there secondary bolts as the track adjusting bolts, if one is to ever back out in the mountains remove 1 track tension bolt and put secondary back on this will avoid a chopper bill or a long tow out of the backcountry.

To crack a rail would take some serious serious Resonance which we may very well just have in this case

KBI over do you copy

 

[kanedog]

KBI,
KBI over do you copy

That’s a big 10-4 good buddy.

 

[kanedog]

But wait..............there’s more!!!! Whaaaaaat? How can this be? Well, here’s how.

The Alpha Rail(AR) was in development for four years says Cat.

The 2017+ Team roller primary (TRP) clutch was in development for one to four years.

Both the AR and TRP’s were developed and tested using the old 800(zuke for reference) engine. The zuke doesn’t have as much harmonics/resonance/vibration as the Ctec2 engine.

Check this out with KBI history approx. timeline.

2013-2016 Alpha Rail(AR) in research and development(RD) using zuke engine.
2014-2016 Team roller primary(TRP)in RD using Zuke engine.
2013-2016 Ctec2 engine in RD including a ton of dyno testing. Crankshaft/engine harmonics are not usually detected on the dyno.


Early 2017-Early Release Cat models were made available to the public.


Early 2017-Ctec2 equipped sleds began to experience TRP failures. Cat recalls sleds without stating a cause for the TRP failures. They even declared a voluntary recall with the Consumer Product Safety Commission(CSPC). Clutches were exchanged for TRP’s with a band-aid fix balancer/counterweight two pound ring mounted onto the stationary sheave. It is unclear if there were other changes to TRP.


2018-TRP failures and AR rail failures are showing up more more as miles begin accumulating on sleds. Cat begins to deny warranty on clutches citing “wear items.”  Ironically, Team increases production on replacement TRP’s for sale.

2019-More TRP and AR failures occur. No report or recall submitted to CPSC. Cat puts new engine development on hold. A new top end, complete with a new flywheel for the Ctec2 gets priority.

2020-“New” Ctec2 introduced. Cat not commenting on AR or TRP failures.

Summary-The AR and TRP were never extensively tested with the Ctec2. All problems would have quickly surfaced and this mess could have been avoided. Now there is a conundrum. Engineering fail.

Quick tidbit-In less than 100miles, I have noticed odd wear on my belt drive aluminum inside gear splines. Most likely harmonics. On the stock aluminum bottom gear, this could also be the cause of the crazy milky stock chaincase oil and worn out/failed bottom gear splines.



Is it even possible there could be more? The KBI will report any further developments.

The above are my beliefs.

 

[E-Zmoke]

But wait..............there’s s more!!!! Whaaaaaat? How can this be? Well, here’s how.

The Alpha Rail(AR) was in development for four years says Cat.

The 2017+ Team roller primary (TRP) clutch was in development for one to four years.

Both the AR and TRP’s were developed and tested using the old 800(zuke for reference) engine. The zuke doesn’t have as much harmonics/resonance/vibration as the Ctec2 engine.

Check this out with KBI history approx. timeline.

2013-2016 Alpha Rail(AR) in research and development(RD) using zuke engine.
2014-2016 Team roller primary(TRP)in RD using Zuke engine.
2013-2016 Ctec2 engine in RD including a ton of dyno testing. Crankshaft/engine harmonics are not usually detected on the dyno.


Early 2017-Early Release Cat models were made available to the public.


Early 2017-Ctec2 equipped sleds began to experience TRP failures. Cat recalls sleds without stating a cause for the TRP failures. They even declared a voluntary recall with the Consumer Product Safety Commission(CSPC). Clutches were exchanged for TRP’s with a band-aid fix balancer/counterweight two pound ring mounted onto the stationary sheave. It is unclear if there were other changes to TRP.


2018-TRP failures and AR rail failures are showing up more more as miles begin accumulating on sleds. Cat begins to deny warranty on clutches citing “wear items.â€�  Ironically, Team increases production on replacement TRP’s for sale.

2019-More TRP and AR failures occur. No report or recall submitted to CPSC. Cat puts new engine development on hold. A new top end, complete with a new flywheel for the Ctec2 gets priority.

2020-“New and improved� Ctec2 introduced. Cat not commenting on AR or TRP failures.

Summary-The AR and TRP were never extensively tested with the Ctec2. All problems would have quickly surfaced and this mess could have been avoided. Now there is a conundrum. Engineering fail.

Quick tidbit-In less than 100miles, I have noticed odd wear on my belt drive aluminum inside gear splines. Most likely harmonics. On the stock aluminum bottom gear, this could also be the cause of the crazy milky stock chaincase oil and worn out/failed bottom gear splines.



Is it even possible there could be more? The KBI will report any further developments.

The above are my beliefs.

A/C recommends first service of chain case at 100 miles for break in and will NOT warranty ANY chaincase parts, under ANY circumstances. I’ve tried at and before 100 miles, 1000 and as high as 5000. These are vibration items, or I mean wear items and not covered

 

[Chrisco]

Nice find Kanedog !!!

 

[Bnorth]

eh stick to the clutches. how often do you see guys tear up sleds and then be like I didn't even hit anything? I don't see NVH being responsible for rail failures or or an aluminum gear that wears in a steel on aluminum running situation.

 

[acesup800]

So what is the intent of all this? Kinda entertaining at a basic level, but that's it. Maybe just tactics to get the focus away from the wobble clutch problem, S-mod problem, etc that never had recalls??

 

[lilduke]

no dootard conspiracy here. let's just focus on how ****ty cat is, quit trying to change the subject.


maybe all the vibration is shaking apart the wiring harness too?

 

[kanedog]

So what is the intent of all this? Kinda entertaining at a basic level, but that's it. Maybe just tactics to get the focus away from the wobble clutch problem, S-mod problem, etc that never had recalls??

The intent of the KBI in this situation is to inform the sledding public about an important issue. Namely, a possible chunk of clutch through the human body.

Secondly, this thread is to communicate with Cats parent company, Textron so Textron doesn’t get the wool pulled over their eyes by the dummies running Cat. I mean, Cat screws up big every year. It’s not hard to see that the same people are in charge and the same mistakes get made year after year. Drain the swamp. Start new. Heck, even Kanedog will work for free to help out. Fire every single one of the old boys club. Every single one. It can’t get any worse than it is.

The fact that bodily injury is possible makes this especially important.

 

[kanedog]

The intent of the KBI in this situation is to inform the sledding public about an important issue. Namely, a possible chunk of clutch through the human body.

The possibility of serious injury elevates this case to a 10/10 in the vehicle world. Namely, three issues are in play.
1. Exploding clutch-Jagged chunks of aluminum departing clutch at 8000rpm will cause serious injury. Imagine the hoopla if a new car had an exploding transmission two feet from the driver. A sled is no different.
2. Alpha Rail failure-The cracking/breaking rail could result in the rail stabbing the track, causing an unpredictable instant stop to the vehicle. Imagine how serious would be in a car. It’s no different on a sled.
3. Frame failure-The frame bolts backing out due to harmonics/vibration could result in vehicle frame failure. How quick would action be taken if frame bolts were falling out on a F150? Sleds are no different.

The severity of potential injury or number of injuries is not a factor. Safety is safety. Corporate knowledge of a potential injury without preventative action is unacceptable by both law and common sense.

The safety issue for fellow sledders is paramount. A complete buyback recall, including mods should be issued in this situation. As a side benefit, Alpha owners won’t have an unsafe steaming pile of parts sled after a season or two. Imagine the sadness when you have to buy a new Alpha rail in year two of ownership. Sledders can avoid being held hostage by shoveling money to Cat just to keep riding.

The above are my beliefs.

 

[0neoldfart]

The possibility of serious injury elevates this case to a 10/10 in the vehicle world. Namely, three issues are in play.
1. Exploding clutch-Jagged chunks of aluminum departing clutch at 8000rpm will cause serious injury. Imagine the hoopla if a new car had an exploding transmission two feet from the driver. A sled is no different.
2. Alpha Rail failure-The cracking/breaking rail could result in the rail stabbing the track, causing an unpredictable instant stop to the vehicle. Imagine how serious would be in a car. It’s no different on a sled.
3. Frame failure-The frame bolts backing out due to harmonics/vibration could result in vehicle frame failure.

The safety issue for fellow sledders is paramount. A complete buyback recall, including mods should be issued in this situation.

It’ll never happen. A blown clutch has happened to ALL brands over the years, and stuff just breaks. Sometimes defective parts, sometime improper assembly, and sometimes due to lack of maintenance or rider error. Sure, it would be nice to have ZERO issues, but the only way that’ll happen is if sleds suddenly jumped in price and weight. I remember a time when you had to have a full set of tools and spare parts to ride for a day, and you were wrenching more then riding...

 

[acesup800]

https://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1557171-primary-clutch-exploded/

Happens to all of them. Pretty sure there was more than 1 ski-doo clutch that exploded. Not bashing Doo or praising cat, just i do not see this rash of issues that would be all over the forums if there was this mass problem you stated. You might be on to something on the clutch, but how many failures are we talking, 1, 5, 50? Out of how many thousands of sales? Maybe you are right and this winter we will see 750 failures with 300 injuries and 5 deaths. Cat will go bankrupt and the cat guys can all go learn to ride laydown steering. lol

 

[kanedog]

It’ll never happen. A blown clutch has happened to ALL brands over the years, and stuff just breaks. Sometimes defective parts, sometime improper assembly, and sometimes due to lack of maintenance or rider error. Sure, it would be nice to have ZERO issues, but the only way that’ll happen is if sleds suddenly jumped in price and weight. I remember a time when you had to have a full set of tools and spare parts to ride for a day, and you were wrenching more then riding...

Imagine if Cat does nothing and someone gets injured by clutch shrapnel. The injured persons lawyer has a slam dunk winning lawsuit because of the clutch explosion aftermath pictures right here on Snow and Mud.

The facts are that Textron issued a voluntary recall. The recall issues are still happening on post recall sleds two years later. Any dummy can see that. It’s not rocket science. It’s not like it’s hidden and nobody knows about it. The pics prove it. Sheesh Cat.

Welcome Cat brass, Engineers, Employees and Lawyers who are monitoring this thread.

Hi Lawyers! Make sure to do the right thing which is a 100% recall buyback plus modifications. The cheap way out is the wrong way out. Damage from harmonics can go undetected right up until the point of failure. It will cost the corporation way more in the long run. You may be figuring out how to cover up a cover up but just come clean, admit to screwing up, make customers whole and start with a new fresh canvas. Simple right? It’s cheaper and better for all in the long run.

It will be interesting to see how they approach this issue. They may not have a choice. It is possible the Federal Government may tell Cat how to proceed.

Let’s just wait and see what comes of this. I think you might be surprised in a good way.

We could be part of sled history right here on Snow and Mud.

The above are my beliefs.

 

[Bnorth]

Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you just machine the spider nut so that the sheaves touch at full shift?

 

[LMLCHEVY]

It’ll never happen. A blown clutch has happened to ALL brands over the years, and stuff just breaks. Sometimes defective parts, sometime improper assembly, and sometimes due to lack of maintenance or rider error. Sure, it would be nice to have ZERO issues, but the only way that’ll happen is if sleds suddenly jumped in price and weight. I remember a time when you had to have a full set of tools and spare parts to ride for a day, and you were wrenching more then riding...

^^^^^This.

Sure some may be built better than others or use better parts according to some or be assembled better but we’re not riding Swiss watches here. If that’s what we really wanted nobody could afford one as they’d cost two or three times what they do now.

At the end of the day pick your poison and ride it. If you want to burn belts, explode your clutch, or have your entire tunnel just taco on you there’s three manufacturers that offer you a machine for each desire lol.

 

[LMLCHEVY]

Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you just machine the spider nut so that the sheaves touch at full shift?

Was wondering the same thing. Along with studding it instead of bolting the cover on.

 

[lilduke]

Keep up the good fight Kanedog!