Kanedog discovers a Clutching CATastrophy, again. Pics!

[jhurkot]

Right, because Cat clutches are exploding everyday on the hill

No, but they're probably not going to fix it until someone is seriously injured or killed.

 

[FernieHawk]

I bought a used 2017 a month ago and was thinking of selling the primary and upgrading to the newer style that came out in 2018...is this a bad idea?

 

[kanedog]

Kane you posted this on snowest like a week ago. Are we 2nd class citizens around here or what? It's the oil pipeline isn't it you can just admit it

I posted and cheated with our 1st cousin, Snowest, because there was a Ascender clutch thread. I am sorry. After I posted, I immediately felt shame and guilt. It was a one week fling and I now realize the Snow and Mud family is my home. The grass is not greener over there. Will you take me back?

Pipeline news-I’m just gonna let them put that bish in. It’d be too stressful to watch and monitor the buffoonery. I didn’t even submit a statement of opposition for time frame window or construction methods. I figure it’d be a clown show anyway.

 

[Jorgy]

I had a failure on my 16 primary with about 1300 miles on it. The spider broke and went through my belly pan (stopped by the additional protector) and the weight snapped off and luckily the belt guard kept it from doing any further damage. The force broke the mount for the secondary as well. This happened back in eagles on the way to turtle. As you can imagine the tow out was not fun so luckily it happened at 10am and we got to the truck by 8pm. Worth noting I was only half throttle on a right hand pow turn...

 

[kanedog]

Post the last six digits of the serial number. Let’s cross reference it with the recall serial numbers. When did it happen? Did you get a recall notice? Did warranty cover it? At the time of the recall, Cat claimed only one case of exploding clutch was known. Kanedog klutch investigation is underway.

 

[jhurkot]

Post the last six digits of the serial number. Let’s cross reference it with the recall serial numbers. When did it happen? Did you get a recall notice? Did warranty cover it? At the time of the recall, Cat claimed only one case of exploding clutch was known. Kanedog klutch investigation is underway.

I know of at least 5 in Revy area. 3 of them were 2019s.

 

[kanedog]

I swear guys I didn’t go looking for this tidbit of info. I just happened to read the clutch recall legal notices and it came to me.

Cat voluntarily recalled 2,700 snowmobiles but I didn’t notice a recall for single clutches sold by the dealer.
Before, during and after the June 6,2017 recall, how many single clutches were sold to customers?
If Cat/Team had the clutches in stock they would be selling a recalled product. The legal notice on the recall letter says that this violates Federal Law.

If someone has a safety concern or got injured with the Team/Cat clutches, the contact is www.Saferproducts.gov

But wait, there’s more! At the time of the June 6, 2017 recall, there was only one reported clutch incident. The current amount of pictures posted online and the amount reported to the US Consumer Product Safety Commision(CPSC) is kinda shocking. It shows the clutch failures are not getting reported by the manufacturer. If the company is being transparent, the incidents would show up on CPSC website and a recall would be mandated.
This raises three questions.
1. What effort was made to contact the customers/dealers that bought/sold a single, recalled clutch between 2016, 17 and 18?
2. If there were recalled clutches being sold, does this violate Federal Law?
3. Why is there not a recall on 2019’s?

The above are my beliefs.

 

[E-Zmoke]

KaneDog, differences set aside from previous posts. I truly feel you have hit the nail right on the head here. I’m no clutching expert nor have I ever claimed to be, but everything you have reported makes logical sense as to why some primary clutches have exploded.

To shed a little light into the original recall for you...it was originally recalled with only a very small amount of sleds I think you stated 2000 something which sounds da about right. The recall was supposed to have just been the early release sno pros that were shipped in Jan of 2017, the king cats that were also pre released and the pre production run of the mountain cats that also arrived in late jan/feb of 2017. They originally believed it was a casting error, and recalled all of them produced up to the factory run of 2018’s They kept very quiet about it all and the recall called for the original clutches to be sent back to cat, new clutches were shipped out and replaced free of charge.

Summer came and gone then the 2018 season started, reports of production model 2018’s started exploding early to mid season as Johnny and Dan stated about half a dozen or so just in our area up here in BC this doesn’t include the USA

Cat/Textron did nothing about this, no new recalls came to light in the 2018 season. Nothing was changed for model year 2019 and again a few more exploded but wasn’t nearly as many as 2018 season.

To my knowledge no changes have been made to model year 2020. I will check my clutch and let you know if they have changed anything but my guess is they have never figured out why as you have and have thought all along that it has always just been a casting issue and didn’t know what direction to go or why some of the clutches explode

Like I said before everything you have found and are reporting makes perfect sense

Great info

 

[kanedog]

KaneDog, differences set aside from previous posts. I truly feel you have hit the nail right on the head here. I’m no clutching expert nor have I ever claimed to be, but everything you have reported makes logical sense as to why some primary clutches have exploded.

To shed a little light into the original recall for you...it was originally recalled with only a very small amount of sleds I think you stated 2000 something which sounds da about right. The recall was supposed to have just been the early release sno pros that were shipped in Jan of 2017, the king cats that were also pre released and the pre production run of the mountain cats that also arrived in late jan/feb of 2017. They originally believed it was a casting error, and recalled all of them produced up to the factory run of 2018’s They kept very quiet about it all and the recall called for the original clutches to be sent back to cat, new clutches were shipped out and replaced free of charge.

Summer came and gone then the 2018 season started, reports of production model 2018’s started exploding early to mid season as Johnny and Dan stated about half a dozen or so just in our area up here in BC this doesn’t include the USA

Cat/Textron did nothing about this, no new recalls came to light in the 2018 season. Nothing was changed for model year 2019 and again a few more exploded but wasn’t nearly as many as 2018 season.

To my knowledge no changes have been made to model year 2020. I will check my clutch and let you know if they have changed anything but my guess is they have never figured out why as you have and have thought all along that it has always just been a casting issue and didn’t know what direction to go or why some of the clutches explode

Like I said before everything you have found and are reporting makes perfect sense

Great info

Awwe thanks for the support. Bro hug, bro �� hug!

It’s unclear what they changed and when they changed things so it makes it hard to reverse engineer the shenanigans that occurred at Cat/Team.

I wonder if the heavy ring bolted onto the stationary sheave was an afterthought. Or was it a harmonic balancer type attempt to stop the shooting stars? I meant shooting parts.

I think if it’s not the cover/spider nut causing it, it would have to be vibration, binding or casting issues. Team has been in the clutch biz for over 10 years. How come, after four years, Team can’t figure out the explosion cause. Some spiders have broken close to the shaft and some break near the roller. Then other clutches both sheaves depart the clutch. The spider stays put. It looks kinda funny seeing just the spider on a sled.

At the very least, sharing the info may save someone a foot one day.
Thanks again for the support. We can resume fighting now. �� haha

 

[FastFarmer]

Soooo...what does it cost to just go buy a new clutch as a replacement?

 

[Kibbels]

Does this mean I should trade my alpha on an expert

 

[E-Zmoke]

Does this mean I should trade my alpha on an expert

As KaneDog stated this can only happen when full shift out occurs which is pretty rare for the average mountain rider to hit, and hold for long enough to put enough stress on the cover to break. If your really into hammering off that backflip you have been talking about then you might want to do something about it.

I’m wondering if one of the aftermarket primary clutch cover company’s compensate for this clearance issue like 911, or Bikeman? Either one are both billet and would be worth the upgrade just to rule out any chance of the cover actually breaking. Of course your just going to take out the next weekest link in the primary though if they don’t compensate for the clearance issue but might be worth the couple hundred to avoid fatigue on the stock cover over time

 

[E-Zmoke]

I wonder if the heavy ring bolted onto the stationary sheave was an afterthought. Or was it a harmonic balancer type attempt to stop the shooting stars? I meant shooting parts.

To my knowledge it’s for sound dampening/harmonic balancer type of thingy it was defiantly an afterthought as it was not on the early versions. Just guessing again but I’m going to guess this would have magically appeared on the 2019’s perhaps this ring type apparatus is the reason as to why we didn’t see as many failures last year on the 19’s, and was Textron’s/Teams solution to try and keep this under the table and not have to recall 4yrs worth of clutches

 

[jpmez69]

Does this mean I should trade my alpha on an expert

Totally keep the Alf, it hardly needs anything....

 

[kanedog]

To my knowledge it’s for sound dampening/harmonic balancer type of thingy it was defiantly an afterthought as it was not on the early versions. Just guessing again but I’m going to guess this would have magically appeared on the 2019’s perhaps this ring type apparatus is the reason as to why we didn’t see as many failures last year on the 19’s, and was Textron’s/Teams solution to try and keep this under the table and not have to recall 4yrs worth of clutches

Excellent ring info.
The ring info puts some pieces in the puzzle. Here is a possible situation-Some parts may be wrong but I believe the ingredients are there.
2016-2017-Early release sleds are available for sale. Textron is in talks to buy Cat. New clutches are starting to accumulate miles. Accelerated wear and failure reports start to dribble in. Cause unknown.
Jan.25, 2017 Textron buys Cat.
June 2017-Textron issues recall on exploding clutches. A rust coloured dust begins to collect on the primary clutches. Comes from the spring vibrating against the spider. This is “called “fretting.”” It’’’s like the dust from a rivet that is experiencing vibration. In this case, harmonic vibration. Harmonic balancer installed to counteract the clutch damaging vibes.
2018-More exploding clutches reported despite changes to the clutch. Fretting still evident. Engineers from Textron and Team scratch heads. Ultimately decide not to report incidents to Consumer Product Safety Commission. Keeps the incidents quiet. Textron even boldly denies some clutch warranty claims due to aftermarket part installation. Textron/Team fingers are crossed that nobody gets hurt or killed. Finger crossing works. No injuries or death.
2019-Facing future warranty, expense and liability issues, Cat introduces an industry first, a one year warranty! Clutches still exploding. The cause is determined to be harmonics from the engine.
2019-Behind the scenes. In order to fix the clutch eating engine harmonics, new cylinders and head are introduced. Changes are touted as new, more power and fuel efficient. Torque and horsepower are only improved 3% oddly enough. Not enough of an improvement to even match the competition. HP/tq curve is moved significantly. See attached. A little bit of extra power thrown in so it doesn’t look suspicious if no power gain is realized.
2020-The new and improved top end introduced, 1 year warranty, nobody looking under the 18 and 19 rug. What rug? I don’t see no rug.

Coupla thoughts-the clutch cover/spider nut interference may cause some failures. The harmonics may cause failures as well. The percentage s are unknown. Sometimes the aluminum sheaves depart. Sometimes the steel spider fails. It’s weird.

I have two clutches. One made in June 2018 and one made in Nov. 2018. One has a serial number AND a bar code date sticker on it. One does not. Weird.

The clutch failures are reminiscent of the Yamaha Srx 440 of the 80’s. You couldn’t keep a clutch together on them. Problem traced to engine harmonics.

The strongest and best cover is the 911 cover. It holds the clutch towers together stiffly(is that even a word?)and has a huge bushing that helps to keep the sheave and cover in line. The clutch will last longer and perform better but can’t overcome clutch/engine inherent problems.

The above are my beliefs.
Note the minor increase in power but the significant change in hp/tq curve location 2020 vs 2018, 2019. A couple cracked cover pics included. Cause-cover/spider nut interference.

 

[Bnorth]

Excellent ring info.
The ring info puts some pieces in the puzzle. Here is a possible situation-Some parts may be wrong but I believe the ingredients are there.
2016-2017-Early release sleds are available for sale. Textron is in talks to buy Cat. New clutches are starting to accumulate miles. Accelerated wear and failure reports start to dribble in. Cause unknown.
Jan.25, 2017 Textron buys Cat.
June 2017-Textron issues recall on exploding clutches. A rust coloured dust begins to collect on the primary clutches. Comes from the spring vibrating against the spider. This is “called “fretting.”” It’’’s like the dust from a rivet that is experiencing vibration. In this case, harmonic vibration. Harmonic balancer installed to counteract the clutch damaging vibes.
2018-More exploding clutches reported despite changes to the clutch. Fretting still evident. Engineers from Textron and Team scratch heads. Ultimately decide not to report incidents to Consumer Product Safety Commission. Keeps the incidents quiet. Textron even boldly denies some clutch warranty claims due to aftermarket part installation. Textron/Team fingers are crossed that nobody gets hurt or killed. Finger crossing works. No injuries or death.
2019-Facing future warranty, expense and liability issues, Cat introduces an industry first, a one year warranty! Clutches still exploding. The cause is determined to be harmonics from the engine.
2019-Behind the scenes. In order to fix the clutch eating engine harmonics, new cylinders and head are introduced. Changes are touted as new, more power and fuel efficient. Torque and horsepower are only improved 3% oddly enough. Not enough of an improvement to even match the competition. HP/tq curve is moved significantly. See attached. A little bit of extra power thrown in so it doesn’t look suspicious if no power gain is realized.
2020-The new and improved top end introduced, 1 year warranty, nobody looking under the 18 and 19 rug. What rug? I don’t see no rug.

Coupla thoughts-the clutch cover/spider nut interference may cause some failures. The harmonics may cause failures as well. The percentage s are unknown. Sometimes the aluminum sheaves depart. Sometimes the steel spider fails. It’s weird.

I have two clutches. One made in June 2018 and one made in Nov. 2018. One has a serial number AND a bar code date sticker on it. One does not. Weird.

The clutch failures are reminiscent of the Yamaha Srx 440 of the 80’s. You couldn’t keep a clutch together on them. Problem traced to engine harmonics.

The strongest and best cover is the 911 cover. It holds the clutch towers together stiffly(is that even a word?)and has a huge bushing that helps to keep the sheave and cover in line. The clutch will last longer and perform better but can’t overcome clutch/engine inherent problems.

The above are my beliefs.
Note the minor increase in power but the significant change in hp/tq curve location 2020 vs 2018, 2019. A couple cracked cover pics included. Cause-cover/spider nut interference.
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Someone screenshot this post cause it won't be here for long.

 

[06 Dragon]

How are those clutches even lasting with bigger power like turbos and big bore kits?

 

[kingcat162]

How are those clutches even lasting with bigger power like turbos and big bore kits?

That is what I'm also wondering - the ones that are getting fully nuked - are the motors modded for more power or just bone stockers?

 

[lilduke]

the ones I've seen are stock motor's

 

[niner]

I’m gonna hit mine with a sledge hammer. Make it wobble. Doo clutches are hot but they don’t explode....