FALLOUT: Avalanche-Turbo March 13,2010

[Red Mtn Riders]

It was sheer stupidity and now it affects all of us.

The argument seems to be that this was an accident, that is the comparison being made correct? Could have happened to anyone, anytime?

That unfortunately ignores the facts. Some facts, avy danger was rated as "severe". People on site acknowledge seeing slides in the area, including one guy who rode up the same hill just before the slide. There is a huge disconnect between this and accidents. This would not have happened to a group of kids being guided because no guide would be so stupid as to take kids on a hill like that during severe avalanche danger conditions. Sadly the same cannot be said for the participants that day. They were just plain dumb to make the choice they did.

It is very likely they were all caught up in the excitement of it all, too bad they didn't stop to think. Now we all look bad, thanks for that boneheads.

 

[snowtec]

We make mistakes every day. Most of us live to tell.
Fellow sledders and media alike are in error quoting the Avalanche bulletin, Yes Avalanche danger was high to Extreme. If we know how the danger scale works Avalanches can occur when danger is LOW. When is it MOST dangerous for ALL back country users. CONCIDERABLE right in the middle, the weakness in the snowpack is lurking, waiting for US to spring the trap. Avalanches occur naturally more frequently when danger is High to Extreme., NEVER let your guard down and don't just go along with the group, Start to Question. What I've found over time is when there is snow on the slopes. Avalanches WILL occur. Always ask ourselves, are we in a safe place. Is here a safer place. Is there a safer route and if not are we taking ALL the proper precautions.

Just my 2 cents
Sledding for life CAA level 1

Heres a thought. From here on if we make a post we make a donations to CANDLES, Way to go Sherry

 

[sledhead_2002]

It was sheer stupidity and now it affects all of us.

The argument seems to be that this was an accident, that is the comparison being made correct? Could have happened to anyone, anytime?

That unfortunately ignores the facts. Some facts, avy danger was rated as "severe". People on site acknowledge seeing slides in the area, including one guy who rode up the same hill just before the slide. There is a huge disconnect between this and accidents. This would not have happened to a group of kids being guided because no guide would be so stupid as to take kids on a hill like that during severe avalanche danger conditions. Sadly the same cannot be said for the participants that day. They were just plain dumb to make the choice they did.

It is very likely they were all caught up in the excitement of it all, too bad they didn't stop to think. Now we all look bad, thanks for that boneheads.

a few points to be considered



1) we are all well aware of the avy rating that day, it was mentioned when trail passes were bought and posting all over, hotels, web etc.
2) accident? mother nature? human triggered? what ever, we understand that the outcome is what could of and should have been prevented.
3) yes bad decisions were made that day and that is something everyone there and everyone effected will have to live with for the remainder of their lives
4) Boneheads?? AGAIN i think your point is made but you are more interested in displaying a bad choice of wording, than educating. Your message is not getting thru but instead fueling a fire the wrong way
5) your thoughts are yours, and expressing them is a good thing, i feel you have good intentions on raising awareness but your timing is off. Please allow the healing for those effected to take place, then you can rant and use words which show no respect for those involved, as many involved read these post and are members here

Regards

Kurt

 

[jaredszakacs]

It was sheer stupidity and now it affects all of us.

The argument seems to be that this was an accident, that is the comparison being made correct? Could have happened to anyone, anytime?

That unfortunately ignores the facts. Some facts, avy danger was rated as "severe". People on site acknowledge seeing slides in the area, including one guy who rode up the same hill just before the slide. There is a huge disconnect between this and accidents. This would not have happened to a group of kids being guided because no guide would be so stupid as to take kids on a hill like that during severe avalanche danger conditions. Sadly the same cannot be said for the participants that day. They were just plain dumb to make the choice they did.

It is very likely they were all caught up in the excitement of it all, too bad they didn't stop to think. Now we all look bad, thanks for that boneheads.

really buddy you better get your facts straight here there were a group of kids killed a couple years back on a crosscountry trip due to an avalanche and that was guided in. There are also many heli ski companies that have had major avalanches that have killed others so why are these guys boneheads why are the heli guides or ski operators not boneheads for letting people go into avalanche terrain what happened there was tragic yes maybe could have been avoided tough to say that another group may have not been there that same time but for you to go on here and say on previous posts that these guys got what they deserved is just ignorant NO ONE DESERVES TO DIE

 

[jaredszakacs]

You may be correct, however what happened after the avalanche? 30 injured. Some critically. Buried and smashed up sleds every where. In the middle of nowhere. The death count could easily been higher without the S&R evacuation. It would be very short sighted not be thankful or trivialize what S&R contributed.

you are very correct S&R deserves a major thank you for the efforts they put in well done on there part

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

really buddy you better get your facts straight here there were a group of kids killed a couple years back on a crosscountry trip due to an avalanche and that was guided in. There are also many heli ski companies that have had major avalanches that have killed others so why are these guys boneheads why are the heli guides or ski operators not boneheads for letting people go into avalanche terrain what happened there was tragic yes maybe could have been avoided tough to say that another group may have not been there that same time but for you to go on here and say on previous posts that these guys got what they deserved is just ignorant NO ONE DESERVES TO DIE

Again, you are trying to equate accidents with seriously bad decisions. I never said the heli ski guys weren't boneheads, maybe they were, what were the circumstances? The kids on the trip, freak accident right? Quite a bit different than a bunch of testosterone fuled guys shooting up a huge avy chute during extreme avy danger. CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCES? Or should I put the whole thing in caps for you?

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

a few points to be considered

4) Boneheads?? AGAIN i think your point is made but you are more interested in displaying a bad choice of wording, than educating. Your message is not getting thru but instead fueling a fire the wrong way

Are you psychic? How do you know what I am interested in?

There SHOULD be a fire! It wasn't the whole group of riders. It was a smaller group, made even smaller by those who didn't attend at all due to conditions.

Unfortunately we all get screwed when people make bad decisions.

5) your thoughts are yours, and expressing them is a good thing, i feel you have good intentions on raising awareness but your timing is off. Please allow the healing for those effected to take place, then you can rant and use words which show no respect for those involved, as many involved read these post and are members here

Regards

Kurt

Kurt,

There is a seperate thread for that. Those involved deserve no respect from me. THEY are the ones who have brought heaps fo bad PR to the sport I love because they did something stupid. It was nothing short of that either. These things continue to happen because people continue to make bad choices. This is much differnt from an accidental slide, and sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Mikew5j]

An avalanche bulletin was issued. They witnessed several smaller avalanches in various locations throughout the day. People continued to hill climb and park in run outs. The people on the mountain that day made their decisions and their fate was handed to them without bias. The people on the mountain did not deserve to die, and it wasn’t stupidity that killed them. It’s sad, its regretful, but it is what it is. We all make bad decisions from time to time, just fortunately for most of us the consequences aren’t quite as severe.

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

An avalanche bulletin was issued. They witnessed several smaller avalanches in various locations throughout the day. People continued to hill climb and park in run outs. The people on the mountain that day made their decisions and their fate was handed to them without bias. The people on the mountain did not deserve to die, and it wasn’t stupidity that killed them. It’s sad, its regretful, but it is what it is. We all make bad decisions from time to time, just fortunately for most of us the consequences aren’t quite as severe.

Until we are willing to call a spade a spade, these things will continue to happen. Those of us making good decisions will continue to pay.

 

[buck50]

You may be correct, however what happened after the avalanche? 30 injured. Some critically. Buried and smashed up sleds every where. In the middle of nowhere. The death count could easily been higher without the S&R evacuation. It would be very short sighted not be thankful or trivialize what S&R contributed.

i very much agree, and that's why i stated they did a GREAT job!!!!!!!!!! but it was still the other sledders that pulled everyone out, and then SAR got them out to the hospitals!

 

[sledhead_2002]

Are you psychic? How do you know what I am interested in?

There SHOULD be a fire! It wasn't the whole group of riders. It was a smaller group, made even smaller by those who didn't attend at all due to conditions.

Unfortunately we all get screwed when people make bad decisions.



Kurt,

There is a seperate thread for that. Those involved deserve no respect from me. THEY are the ones who have brought heaps fo bad PR to the sport I love because they did something stupid. It was nothing short of that either. These things continue to happen because people continue to make bad choices. This is much differnt from an accidental slide, and sometimes the truth hurts.

There is a fire, and i know you are interested in fueling it with your words, which create thoughts and your words have people thinking. I also deliver messages harsh when trying to drive the point home. I just believe in showing respect to those members still dealing with this

So you also indicate by your statement that you have no respect for the widows or family members, and that i dont believe

Yes Bad PR has risen due to this but as you are witness to our fellow sledders are educating the public on our sport.

 

[234blair]

Again, you are trying to equate accidents with seriously bad decisions. I never said the heli ski guys weren't boneheads, maybe they were, what were the circumstances? The kids on the trip, freak accident right? Quite a bit different than a bunch of testosterone fuled guys shooting up a huge avy chute during extreme avy danger. CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCES? Or should I put the whole thing in caps for you?

Can YOU see the differences Rtn Mtn Riders? It is one thing to talk about the mistakes that caused an accident. It is another thing totally different to insult and disrespect the dead. For your information, the only key differences in the 2003 Mount Cheops avalanche that killed 7 students (the dead students were all 15-year-olds in grade 10) from Strathcona-Tweedsmuir school were: 1. they were with a licensed guide 2. they had skis and 3. They did not have 200 friends on snowmobiles that came to the rescue in minutes. The people on site did their best, but there was simply too many buried and too few people to dig. The SAR response was outstanding but simply could not get there in time. Snow conditions at the time were freakishly similar to the Boulder Mt accident. The major fallout from the Mount Cheops accident was that various levels of government started to seriously fund the Canadian Avalanche Center. That funding was starting to get pulled back this year. Please spend your energy pressuring the provincial and federal governments to renew their funding commitments.

This is a quote from a survivor of the Mount Cheops avalanche. "Everyone looks for someone to blame, whether it's for the avalanches or the space shuttle," says Seibert, the survivor of the Jan. 20 slide. "We have this belief that safety is guaranteed, and that is ludicrous. I hope that if something had happened to me, my wife would have been happy knowing I didn't die watching CNN."

That same mind-set is what administrators at Strathcona-Tweedsmuir remain determined to cultivate in the school's students. "We will be investigating and likely adding procedures for risk assessment, but this program is at the heart of who we are and how we educate and develop young people," Healy says. "It won't end."

Issue date: February 17, 2003 Sports Illustrated

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

There is a fire, and i know you are interested in fueling it with your words, which create thoughts and your words have people thinking. I also deliver messages harsh when trying to drive the point home. I just believe in showing respect to those members still dealing with this

So you also indicate by your statement that you have no respect for the widows or family members, and that i dont believe

Yes Bad PR has risen due to this but as you are witness to our fellow sledders are educating the public on our sport.

I, like most sledders, do not want to die trying to enjoy this sport. I do not want want to see a close friend die, I do not want to have to dig anybody out ever. I actively work in a multitude of ways to acheive that goal.

When an avalanche accident occurs, I have sympathy for those involved.

When I see EXTREMELY bad decision making end in a tragedy, I have a very hard time with sympathy. I do not wish death on anybody but not accepting this for what it really was, does not further a solution. I refuse to turn a blind eye for the sake of sympathy.

There are a few who expereinced a close personal loss. Does it matter one whit to them what you or I think? I doubt it. None of that will bring back the dead. I think it is far more constructive to deal in reality.

There is a seperate thread for sympathy right? Maybe you should be posting there until such time YOU are comfortable discussing the reality of the situation. I think you are out of line trying to change my approach to this.

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

Can YOU see the differences Rtn Mtn Riders? It is one thing to talk about the mistakes that caused an accident. It is another thing totally different to insult and disrespect the dead. For your information, the only key differences in the 2003 Mount Cheops avalanche that killed 7 students (the dead students were all 15-year-olds in grade 10) from Strathcona-Tweedsmuir school were: 1. they were with a licensed guide 2. they had skis and 3. They did not have 200 friends on snowmobiles that came to the rescue in minutes. The people on site did their best, but there was simply too many buried and too few people to dig. The SAR response was outstanding but simply could not get there in time. Snow conditions at the time were freakishly similar to the Boulder Mt accident. The major fallout from the Mount Cheops accident was that various levels of government started to seriously fund the Canadian Avalanche Center. That funding was starting to get pulled back this year. Please spend your energy pressuring the provincial and federal governments to renew their funding commitments.

This is a quote from a survivor of the Mount Cheops avalanche. "Everyone looks for someone to blame, whether it's for the avalanches or the space shuttle," says Seibert, the survivor of the Jan. 20 slide. "We have this belief that safety is guaranteed, and that is ludicrous. I hope that if something had happened to me, my wife would have been happy knowing I didn't die watching CNN."

That same mind-set is what administrators at Strathcona-Tweedsmuir remain determined to cultivate in the school's students. "We will be investigating and likely adding procedures for risk assessment, but this program is at the heart of who we are and how we educate and develop young people," Healy says. "It won't end."

Issue date: February 17, 2003 Sports Illustrated

This is an apples and orange comparison. How many snowmobiles highmarked the slope above the skiers? That simple fact right there differentiates the tragic accident with the skiers and the seemingly testosterone fueled group that CAUSED an avalance the other day.

You need to quit with the bleeding heart crap. I have young kids, the details of the skier ACCIDENT are really inconsequential unless you are trying to elicit my emotional response.

This is about a bunch of guys making really bad choices and paying the price. That is VERY VERY different.

 

[sledhead_2002]

I, like most sledders, do not want to die trying to enjoy this sport. I do not want want to see a close friend die, I do not want to have to dig anybody out ever. I actively work in a multitude of ways to acheive that goal.

When an avalanche accident occurs, I have sympathy for those involved.

When I see EXTREMELY bad decision making end in a tragedy, I have a very hard time with sympathy. I do not wish death on anybody but not accepting this for what it really was, does not further a solution. I refuse to turn a blind eye for the sake of sympathy.

There are a few who expereinced a close personal loss. Does it matter one whit to them what you or I think? I doubt it. None of that will bring back the dead. I think it is far more constructive to deal in reality.

There is a seperate thread for sympathy right? Maybe you should be posting there until such time YOU are comfortable discussing the reality of the situation. I think you are out of line trying to change my approach to this.

This i agree with.

i have posted in the other thread but was not taking the direct approach you were, i agree with most of your points but was the wording i was having a bad time with.

most of us understand the simple rules and one of those rules was broken, 1 sled on the hill at 1 time.

I and im sure most of us have been out sledding when the avy risk was off the charts, but by being here we made decisions that were in our favor.

EDUCATION is what is required, not laws, or restrictions but more education, i have left a buddy in the parking lot cause he did have a beacon, and i wil again do the same if the presented with the same issue.

I think you have done a great job at provoking thoughts and hopefully those thoughts turn into actions and then the education process has started.

Kurt

 

[Longhorn]

Red Mtn...

You dont have a lot of tact when making your point, but I am having a really hard time disagreeing with your thought process. We were invited to take a trip to Revy last weekend, and as a new rider I did some checking on the area via the internet...First info I came across was the elevated avy risk, and I called my riding partner and explained that due to my inexperience and the elevated risk, I was not willing to go, new snow or not! To my suprise, he asked me to send the info to him and minutes later, he backed out as well. I have a wife and 3 daughters, and I am not willing to risk my life for a weekend of great conditions no matter what. I know many others that made this same decision. Of course we cannot forget the many other sledders that were in Revy last weekend that DIDNT get hurt, or caught in an avy...Lucky? or made better choices? I cannot say as I wasnt there, I dont care to speculate.

I did still ride last weekend, just went somewhere I felt was safer, took my kids and have some great memories of the trip...

I want to be sad, mad, angry that people got hurt, but truthfully I keep asking my self WHY???

Why were they there???
Why did they climb???
Why didnt someone stop them???
Why did all the others stay at the bottom???

Red Mtn...I dont agree with how you are delivering it, but i DO agree with your message!

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

There is good reason why I have not posted in the other thread. It is respect for the dead.

THIS is the place to discuss the reality.

I have also refused to ride with unprepared people. We sent them home, told them to come back prepared.... or don't.

I am extremely fussy about who I ride with, the list is short because the terrain is very dangerous.

I think the BIS got a bunch of guys all riled up to put down some big marks on the hill. They were not thinking very rationally and some people died. Some avy deaths are truely accidents. More and more, the ones I read about display serious errors in judgement by the parties involved.

You are correct, education is the answer. I personally oppose all new regulation because it doesn't work. The only solution is for people to use their heads. Too many out there seem to forget how dangerous and brutal mother nature can be. I happen to think a very blunt approach is far more effective. Some might find it abrasive, I think that is imperative.

 

[Going West]

It is very easy to sit back and analyze something after it happened. Of course you can see where everything went wrong, and what should and shouldn't have happened. Yes mistakes were make and people got hurt, but to come out and say they deserved to die is a little ridicules. I'm sure most every one who has rode the mountains has been in a situation where if something went differently they could have been hurt or kill. Its part of the risk assumed. In all the posts I've read from people that were involved, they are claiming responsibility for their own actions, and thats as far as it needs to go.

Red mtn rider, I'm sure at some point in you life you have taken a risk or two that was unnecessary. Everyone at some point in their live makes a mistake or two. Most people get away with it, but some get caught, they are no different then you or I, and to say that they deserved to die is hypocritical.

If your ever injured i hope that people show more compassion to you, cause if every one took you point of view it would be a very uncaring world.

 

[Bogger]

I'm with longhorn on this one.... as much as I've tried to find fault in red's posts due to the presentation I can not discount the facts he provides...
I am NOT avy trained, only ever been to the mountains once and that was with riders who were trained. Even without avy training I look at the pictures of the slide and can't help but ask myself WTF was everyone doing there.

The presentation may be harsh but you can't argue the facts presented.

BTW... the reason they were there is simple, Pack mentality. As humans we naturally feel safe in numbers...20 people gather....30 more show up...here come another 20.... eventually people naturally assume if there are that many people there it MUST be safe. I'm sure if someone would have cried out above the crowd..."HEY WTF are we all doing stopped right here" many would have recognized the danger and moved out. unfortunately it is not in our nature, it must be taught.

It is very easy to sit back and analyze something after it happened. Of course you can see where everything went wrong, and what should and shouldn't have happened. Yes mistakes were make and people got hurt, but to come out and say they deserved to die is a little ridicules. I'm sure most every one who has rode the mountains has been in a situation where is something went differently they could have been hurt or kill. Its part of the risk assumed. In all the posts I've read from people that were involved, they are claiming responsibility for their own actions, and thats as far as it needs to go.

Red mtn rider, I'm sure at some point in you life you have take a risk or two that was unnecessary. Everyone at some point in their live makes a mistake or two. Most people get away with it but some get caught, they are no different then you or I, and to say that they deserved to die is hypocritical.

If your ever injured i hope that people show more compassion to you, cause if every one took you point of view it would be a very uncaring world.

 

[Red Mtn Riders]

I think this situation was EXTREME, in that, it was blatantly obvious to any rational person.

You apperantly disagree, but I thing there is way,way,way to much compassion in the world. I much prefer the black and white of things.