Lets start a discussion. How do we fix sledding?

[o zone guy]

Now your talking... i like that... I believe if there was Education a (course) on the terrain (area) Example...Quartz, boulder, turtle, keystone, Eagles pass etc...that your heading into kinda like the sledders guide with a more EXTENSIVE FOUNDATION about the area this would provide VALUABLE KNOWLEDGE... I myself have had the fortune and pleasure to follow guys like RANDY and DARYL BAKER who PROVIDED me with the TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE of the areas and kept the whole group safe, back when avy training wasn't offered to sledders..I AGREE and SUPPORT Randy QUOTE..."Please stop those 2 Hour "avy courses" that people think they are avalanche trained"...AST 1 is just one of the first steps... Theres more to being in the backcountry then just taken an avy course.. YES it is a MUST in this world we live in today..KNOWLEDGE of the AREA and the TERRAIN that your heading into PRICELESS!!!!...EXAMPLE u have your AST 1 course under your BELT... u go to Sunshine Village... they provide u with a General MAP of the AREA,TERRAIN,marked with Green,, Blue, Black runs.. When u arrive at the top of the run it ALSO is marked with green, blue ,black runs.. In an instant u just gained that TERRAIN KNOWLEDGE... For sledders a whole different story?????...MEOW????

learn and remember the terrain this will reduce the risk mountain knowledge???

 

[lilduke]

I agree.. face your fear... It loses its power.. I drive by myself millions doo everyday

LOL I had a few brews tonight ozone, so mostly just talking chit. But I think my point was, its hard to control what other people do up there.

That hill in post 1,, don't park under that.(or horse shoe the piss out of it) Seems like common sense, but guess not.

 

[Caper11]

"Just because your trained, doesn't make you competent".

Some people are really that clueless. Yah can try to change someone's attitude but it doesn't sink in.

My last trip out at Allen I saw a group enter the cabin at 9am and start cracking beers! What's their state of mind later on in the day.

Now I remember a thread about alcohol consumed on the hill and a few members got bent out of shape over the discussion about drinking on the hill.

This is a really good topic Curtis but I dunno how it will be fixed.


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[broke'n'nuts]

I agree but what we are doing isn't working right now? Whats your solution?

As I said earlier it's a tough one. Don't think there is one answer. But step back for a minute when you say it's not working. Was there this access to information 10 to 15 yrs ago? Or the quality of the equipment we have today? The fact that a group of guys from various backgrounds all over western canada are talking and trying to find solutions for the problems to me means progress. ALWAYS room for improvements. Manufacturers are getting involved, media and social media are getting involved. Saw 2 good articles on FB from mountain sledder mag. Back country anything is dangerous. Sledding, skiing. Hunters mauled by bears. Inherent risk to the pastimes we have passion for. The knowledge and training is there for those that want it. I try to leave it better than I found it. Ride with like minded individuals. At the end of the day YOU have to want to learn. Do rental companies ask for AST before renting?? Nope. Here's your sled and pack have fun!!! Education is still the start.

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[minnow10]

Its not the OEM's sole responsibility? Do the auto manufacturers force peeps to take driving lessons or tests? No. Its the governments responsibility and it should be here to. Take training if you want a backcountry license. Plain and simple.

you are right , not the OEM responsibility , A lot of riders come from an industry where safety tickets are required prior to going to work everyday ( proves competency ), should the AVY training be a requirement, required proof at the booth we pay at, show proof of training and min required equipment? Mandate the requirements keeping it realistic. you will always have unknown risks when dealing with mother nature. licensing would be to broad as it would have to incorporate the whole sport. A person who gets a snowmobile license in sask east would have different riding than sask west. a driving license does not fix stupid and keep people from operating units they shouldn't

 

[Lund]

Agreed but how many people have been lost to avalanches lately beside the groomed trail up to the cabin? There are many places on the way up that should not be touched either but I would say the majority of deaths have been further back into terrain that was not easily accessible 15 or 20 years ago.

Staying off of the terrain is where the education and experience part comes into play.

You bring good thought's to the discussion but your statement here is not necessarily correct. 99% of all the terrain that the majority are riding today was first tracked up in the late 80s. So like 30yrs ago, i know lots will have a hard time believing that, but sleds were very capable then, with big tracks and big power and nearly as light.
The biggest difference today is the traffic up there, back then you were lucky to see anyone. Today, sometime you have to hunt to find fresh snow because everything is tracked up. Thus getting into questionable situations for fresh snow, plus avy's in many cases are triggered by not the riders in the danger zone but by others riding above them. Something that didn't generally happen in the past so much. A Golden situation this year, that was the case.

The first time i traverse from Eagles to Boulder via Turtle mtn was in 1989 on a Yamaha Exciter, the same year i pulled Turbo hill at Boulder on the same sled. My point, that was nearly 30yrs ago.

 

[ducati]

You bring good thought's to the discussion but your statement here is not necessarily correct. 99% of all the terrain that the majority are riding today was first tracked up in the late 80s. So like 30yrs ago, i know lots will have a hard time believing that, but sleds were very capable then, with big tracks and big power and nearly as light.
The biggest difference today is the traffic up there, back then you were lucky to see anyone. Today, sometime you have to hunt to find fresh snow because everything is tracked up. Thus getting into questionable situations for fresh snow, plus avy's in many cases are triggered by not the riders in the danger zone but by others riding above them. Something that didn't generally happen in the past so much. A Golden situation this year, that was the case.

The first time i traverse from Eagles to Boulder via Turtle mtn was in 1989 on a Yamaha Exciter, the same year i pulled Turbo hill at Boulder on the same sled. My point, that was nearly 30yrs ago.

Very good point. We did access the same terrain in those days but just had to work harder for it and throw more talent at the actual riding than just throttle and go. The difference now is that a sled purchased right off the showroom floor is insanely capable whereas back then we would have started with the stock unit and then modified it to make it have the big power, big track, light weight, etc.... I know people still do that with the turbos and such but that is another topic all together.

I couldn't agree more with the traffic being a huge difference. I think it was said earlier in the thread by someone as well that when you used to go into the hills you would see a few trucks and trailers rather than today with the parking lot packed at every area and people going on terrain that shouldn't be touched just to get some fresh snow. Big combination of reasons for this as natural growth of the sport comes into play along with the growth and popularity of the "extreme" sports genre (X-games, videos, You-tube, Go-Pro's), disposable income for more people and the equipment being better out of the box rather than having to ride all weekend and wrench all week.

I know personally i really try hard to talk to people, even if i don't know them at all, just to spread a message and bring some awareness to others. Some take the information well and really listen while others meet it with hostility and a "don't tell me what to do" attitude.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

2 snowmobilers confirmed dead in B.C. avalanche - British Columbia - CBC News
Fawk, 2 more gone and two missing from Radium area. Not good. Hope they find the missing safe.

 

[scotts]

Been stewing on these thoughts for a few years, reading this thread was the catalyst for this post. Sorry to anyone I may offend.

Today's sleds are more than capable, the ability and minds of most riders today are not.

Funny that sometimes the ones wanting change are the biggest hypocrits - how many of you have posted pics or vids showing off your forays into "extreme" areas and your self-percieved "amazing" talent? Did you not think that someone might use that information the very next weekend? Or are you the only extreme rider out there that can handle it? How can you then say we should invoke a backcountry license when many of you might not pass the test?

Making mandatory licensing is not the answer. Anyone who thinks it is can happily ride with my dad who has 45+ yrs on sleds in the mountains of southeast BC. You will very quickly learn that, while AST 1 is a start, it is no replacement for experience and respect for the mountains. One of the recent guys who died in an avalanche had extensive backcountry experience and avalanche training (according to his next of kin), but one has to question why they were playing in an avy chute.

Why aren't we talking about that? Because every time someone asks the "what mistakes were made" question, all the pussies here say "its not the right time", and then it just gets swept under the rug. Many times its because those very riders have made the same mistakes, but got away with it, and are ashamed to admit it. Admission means they have to give themselves a reality check about their experience level and decision making ability.

Try and talk about what happened on Boulder a few years back. Everyone buries their head in the sand or has a scapegoat or wants to commend how fast there was "self-organization". No one wants to say there was a special avy bulletin out and that conditions were terrible and having that many people congregated in one area was poor judgement. I can't say that I have ever seen anyone with a healthy amount of backcountry experience expose themselves to avy terrain with such cavalier attitudes like many riders today.

And by experience I mean REAL experience, not this bullsh!t everyone feeds each other on the internet about how awesome you all think you are. Talking about it on S&M doesn't give you more experience. Talk to people who have had to tell loved ones their husband is not coming home, that will give you an experience. Its not cliche - I've been there, seen it, its crazy how much of a unbelievably humbling experience that is. You watch someone else go through it, you will do everything you can to make sure it never happens to you.

OneOldFart says he never sees anyone dig a pit on the hill - I ride with a couple people on this forum and they will verify that I dig a pit every time out. My buddies encourage it, and because of that I know we've got each others backs. Time again for one of those "self-admissions" if you or your buddies are making excuses for why you/they are NOT doing it. Are you as experienced as you think? Are they? Don't bluff (more on that cliche later).

Many people here are guilty of too much information sharing. Yes, call me a d!ck all you want, but way too many times people get in over their heads because of something they read on the internet.

You guys wanna "fix" sledding? Its more than AST 1's, hugs and self-proclamation. It starts by being humble and not thinking that because you ride the mountains a lot or that you moved to BC for a few years that means you are the world's most renowned expert on all-things-hilly-and-white. It starts with calling out our chicken **** society who says "everyone is equal" because we aren't.

People get into trouble because they shouldn't be there. With experience comes wisdom, and make no mistake, they are not the same thing. Wisdom is the ability to use knowledge and experience intelligently. Experience can get you up the mountain, wisdom will make sure you get down. Fixing sledding means some people are going to have to show tough love. Sucks but that's the reality.

I've always lived by the motto that sledding is like gambling and mother nature is the house - you put all your chips on the table and you play with your life. Experience is your cards. Play the hand you're dealt, sometimes you have to fold and wait for the next deal. At some point though, you are going to be all in, and when Mother Nature calls your hand, you better not be bluffing.

Best post of the thread so far!
Hearing this morning of 2 more lost yesterday in Blue River, and as tragic as it will be for the friends and family of these guys the cold hard truth is mistakes will have been made and the sled community needs to learn from these " incidents" and not just say "Ride on in Heaven Brother" and sweep it under the table.
we as a community are all quilty of miniumalizing Avalanche safety, for Christ sakes the muffpot thread gets more traffic than the Avy one. It's sad but very telling where are focus lies!

 

[Barker]

Sorry, but you can't fix it.. They have a picture on plastic bags that say don't put your baby in there.... Why you ask?? Well because someone did, and guess what?? that picture is not stopping others putting there baby's in bags....

 

[pistoncontracting]

Ya know, I just can't understand how anyone can say with a straight face, that more regulation is what's needed. Especially anyone from Alberta- the ones that are currently up in arms about Notleys over reach with Bill 6.

I really don't think you can compare snowmobiling in the back country, to driving a car on public highways. Trail riding maybe, but not offroading. People have had drivers license for years, been wearing seat belts for years, had safe vehicles for years, and yet look how slow the accidents decline. Much of why less people are dieing in accidents is because we are better at saving them medically.

It is the population that changes and decides it's actions, not the government. The same will be true with this.

The only thing more regulation would do to 'solve' this, would be thin the crowd by making it more expensive. By having an honest, open conversation when something bad does happen, will be what solves this. Anytime there is a wreck, it's nearly top secret. Sure, you get a few details- but never the 'real' story.

And why is it, the vast majority of the time, those that have all the latest and greatest gear and training, seem to be the ones dominating the news??

It's human nature that is to blame. It's everyone thinking they are a pro, making you tube videos. People see it, and think they can replicate it. More thought is put into being epic, and accidents happen. The rest see the videos, like what they see, go down and buy a sled, take a course, by an airbag, and are told by most here, that they are good to go. Taking a weekend course, and buying an airbag doesn't make you anymore safe then anyone else. It does give a huge amount of over confidence.

The part I've often wondered about, is if some of the people involved don't sometimes get what they are hoping for. Especially since suicide is on the rise, and what better way to go, then climbing the stairway to heaven.


I dunno. There are so many variables. Sometimes, I can't help but think it's not as big of problem as people make it out to be. Look at how many people enjoy the back country- compared to those that die from it.

 

[bingo1010]

many good points raised, i believe before we try to fix the problem we have to see if we actually have a problem in the first place. does anyone have numbers that compare per capita deaths of mountain sledding to other things such as ...hunting, hiking, mountain biking, rock climbing, skiing, motor vehicles, cancer death rates....... sure it seems that there are a lot of deaths and i do agree they are preventable for the most part, but at the same time we cant look back and say in the year 199x we lost 20 sledders to avy's and in the year 2016 we lost the same number. in that same time period the number of people sledding in the back country has went through the roof, so naturally incidents are going to rise with it. i am not saying nothing should be done but i think we should first step back and see to what degree we have a problem.

 

[AirNorth1]

sorry had to delete

 

[0neoldfart]

I don't feel there is any single correct answer, rather a combination of many things that need to be analyzed. Yes, we could access a lot of areas in years past, but it took a fair amount of rider skill and a large wallet, as the stock snowmobiles of the day were not as capable as the current offerings. I believe there is a certain amount of over confidence in many areas, for example avalanche airbags, better transceivers, AST training, SPOT messengers, and the machines themselves. And yes, the allure of being the next big internet sensation with GoPro video clips don't help, especially with the inexperienced "experienced" riders. I can only speak of my own life experiences, and was involved in a burial recovery in the 90's that changed my entire outlook about sledding, and how/when, and with whom I ride. Yes, I do have machinery that is capable of climbing anything I point it at, but that doesn't mean I choose to do so - the sleds are far more capable then I am these days... And regarding attitude, I recently "dropped" a rider from my circle simply because he took unnecessary risks when riding, led inexperienced riders into hazardous areas (follow me attitude), and felt that he was "safe" because of the machinery he was on, his riding experience, and the shiny new avalanche backpack he wears, and multiple discussions regarding terrain hazards with him fell on deaf ears.
The inherent risks are real, and training does help provided that it is actually put to good use. As individuals we take calculated risks every day, and sometimes they result in less then desirable outcomes. Licencing isn't the answer, as there will always be those who choose to ignore the rules.
I would like to see the pros actually become bigger ambassadors to the sport, as they have a huge impact on a lot of the riding population - perhaps a "schooled" video that explains that these hazards are very real and stress the importance of good decision making to ensure everyone comes home safely, and advising the need for proper training - it could be included in the purchase price of the new sled. Might not help everyone, but it would be a step in the right direction especially for the newer generation of riders. Back country safety is something we NEED to talk about and promote, or there will come a time that the general population (who for the most part are misinformed about the sport) will succeed in closing the available riding areas that we use.

 

[pistoncontracting]

Ya know, just watching my two kids run around the house here, helps paint a picture.

Snowmobilers are just like kids. More specifically, a 2 and 4 year old.

The 2 year old watches the 4 year old run around like crazy. She see's that, and thinks that because she is mobile, and can go nearly as fast as the 4 year old does, that she is capable of doing ALL he does. When it comes time to start climbing onto the bed though, that's where the 'experience' shows up. Both have been told how to do it. Both have been shown how to do it. The 2 year old thinks she can do it because she has been shown, and was able to keep up so far with the 4 year old. She gets upset when she can't make it or falls, and that seems to drive her even harder. Usually ending up in an even bigger wreck if someone doesn't stop her, and correct her actions.

What the 2 year old hasn't seen, is the amount of times the 4 year old fell while building his level of experience. She seems to have a sense of entitlement, in that is is her right to go, even though she can't/shouldn't. Because even once she's up there, she plays wrecklessly close to the edge, and is presented with a whole other set of obstacles she doesn't have the means to overcome.

I can control that environment. I can observe, and catch her when she falls... as long as I'm there when it happens. Does she fall all the time- nope. Not even half the time.


The back country is a big place. If we were to control it, it would have a far greater negative impact, then what would be gained.

Please, for the sake of future generations, stop begging the government for help.

 

[pistoncontracting]

I would like to see the pros actually become bigger ambassadors to the sport, as they have a huge impact on a lot of the riding population - perhaps a "schooled" video that explains that these hazards are very real and stress the importance of good decision making to ensure everyone comes home safely, and advising the need for proper training - it could be included in the purchase price of the new sled. Might not help everyone, but it would be a step in the right direction especially for the newer generation of riders. Back country safety is something we NEED to talk about and promote, or there will come a time that the general population (who for the most part are misinformed about the sport) will succeed in closing the available riding areas that we use.

I think the whole Burandt/Rassmussen tree riding movement was a great idea. It took guys away from the big open slopes. It showed them that there is more to mountain riding then point and shoot.

With that though, comes another set of dangers. Look how many people die on sleds away from the mountains.

Perhaps we should concentrate on the things we have control over and can change, maybe solve those problems first.

 

[52weekbreak]

I think the Sledding is fine. Some of the people are poorly informed or are reckless. It does not matter whether one is intentionally or unintentionally reckless as the result is the same.

From my perspective, I would really like to see better maps of back country areas that include some terrain info on avalanche prone areas, noting traps and other high hazard spots (CLIFF!!!). Improving access to information would go a long way for sensible riders.

Beside the trail into the Kakwa is a sign that provides a caution message and reads your beacon. Red light when you pull up and turns green once signal is received. Pretty simple reminder combined with an equipment check. Smart and effective for most.

Better and more convenient access to information is key. I was reading a study done by one of the large cereal companies that stated sales were down because many people don't want to be bothered to pour milk on. Our society seems to be headed toward laziness and acknowledging that and building a strategy with that in mind will provide the best result. Darwin will look after the rest

 

[Bnorth]

You guys are acting like more training is going to fix this but even with training everyone has different risk tolerances. I think there needs to be more incentive for people to get the training and commit to developing their knowledge just doing an AST1 and thinking they're good for the next 20 years isn't going to cut it. I was going back through some documents and realized I haven't done an avy course besides the BRP free one since 2012 that was an eye opener for me.

The shift to more training and better decision making is a huge cultural shift and will take years to be effective. From the many responses here it is clear that those making poor choices do not want to hear about it from their peers. I would like to see a team of avy professionals in every major riding area that travel through the areas and look for bad behaviour and poor decision making with regards to terrain and can offer some on the spot feedback and advice. They are differentiated from Joe Blow rider by their experience and credentials and wear jackets to easily identify them. I'm not taking about a cop figure catching guys speeding on the trail or drinking some beers. They are only their to offer perspective and expertise on avalanche terrain. They have experience in the area and can identify that hey this slope slid last year all the way to the lake and here's a pic of it or this isn't a good place to stop as you're under a cornice and above a terrain trap so you should go eat lunch over there instead. Basically just travel through the zones to spread best practices and have knowledge of the specific area and the safer travel choices and play areas contained in it. If it is coming from someone respected in the industry like Curtis or Jeremy it carries a lot more weight.

 

[broke'n'nuts]

Doesn't cost the sled club on a call out, it's the government and us tax payers



Some of us even volunteer our time for the sled club to help sars in rescues



I just can't see the license, ast 1 training ect, the answer either

Too many from out of b.c and Country to police it


Example, the new b.c registration, other provinces and countries have different policy's, and if your from out of province only what's there apply

I know it doesn't cost the club. Was just talking dollar cost in general. SAR needs the locals with the knowledge of the areas to find these guys. What a huge expanse to cover and hats off to the volunteers that help out!! Lent one group my tow strap last week, if they don't have a tow strap between a few guys what else don't they have. Saw one young fella at cabin wearing old work gloves. What's gonna happen to his hands on an overnighter?? Most of it is a can't happen to me attitude. Sometimes it's being in these situations that opens our eyes. Our group had a near night out a few yrs ago and next trip the amount of gear was significantly more. The experience to know better usually comes at the cost of mistakes. Unfortunately sometimes those mistakes come at a higher cost.....

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[ACP]

Good article Curtis,
Not sure what the answer is but I know personally I have stopped riding with people that had no respect for the terrain or me at least when riding.
I know there is a lot of riders on here that took the time to educate themselves and carry the proper gear PROPERLY, and then there's the one's we talk about too frequently.
I sometimes times wonder if this site had a " do you ride with this guy/girl" Embarrassment section where you can post a pic if you see someone doing STUPID or packing STUPID.
Not a place to put anyone down but a place to make them think of their decisions. Example and I'm sure we all rode with someone we all thought WTF are they thinking?
I know if I had friends or fellow sledders showing me that was a bad move on my part and I seen it on here I would be motivated to correct it, In saying that, if and when that person made the changes ex. AST courses, proper back pack equipment, terrain decision making etc. We show that as well and i'm sure there would be a boat load on here that would chime in to recognize his or hers accomplishments. Because I never want the recognition of digging a wife,husband or someone's children out of white concrete. RIP to all who have left I just wish your final message reaches out and teaches before this is repeated. If this sounds ridiculous to anyone keep it to yourself please I'm just tired of my wife looking at me with those eyes telling me about another family's loss.