Get Behind This People- Avy Card Idea - Everyone Please Read!

[JoHNI_T]

The more I read the posts the more I see this as this being history re written just like the boat operator's card back in the late 90's . I mean this as a compliment to Gascan's idea and Snowchuks / JohNIT's comments. a few boating accidents and then a system was created to ensure that operators are competent. No matter what system - you can't cure stupid people but this system can only help.

very true,, every bit helps I guess,,

it just suks that most the normal people get to pay $$ for others that are so stupid and or uneducated.... but really I guess thats how the world turns so time to suk it up and go make more money so I can be free to do as i please....

 

[Free Rider]

I don't think it is a matter of HP to decide licences, maybe an IQ test would be a better idea. The higher the score the lower the cost.

 

[Al "ley Cat"]

It makes good sense to have a avy card . but what happens when the 1 person in the group of 4 has the avy card and a avy happens ?? Is he going to be held liable for the actions of his friends ????????

 

[snochuk]

It makes good sense to have a avy card . but what happens when the 1 person in the group of 4 has the avy card and a avy happens ?? Is he going to be held liable for the actions of his friends ????????

No avy card no access to backcountry, period, clubs can have minimal riding area for those with no avy card. If you can't take the course you can ride but only certain areas. If you are serious about mountain riding you will have to MAKE time for the course. Personally I don't want people riding with me if they are not capeable of saving me. I'll visit with them at home where it's safe.:d

 

[GasCan]

Spoke with CAC regarding possible card issuance.

I spoke briefly with Ian Tomm of the Canadian Avalanche Center today and early indications are that the CAC will be looking into the idea and the possibility of issuing cards for future AST courses. We spoke to this being a viable option to promote awareness and training in all related safety courses sanctioned by the CAC with this reaching into other outdoor and back country activities as well.

I will be summarizing a feasibility report to the CAC including a sample card and costs related to the printing of this type of awareness tool. I am sure they will look at a graphical design and slogan marketed towards each industry with one common goal, which is to promote safety in the back country and mountain parks.

Ian is in close contact with industry trainers, clubs, associations and government officials, so hopefully something positive will roll out of this idea. Anything we do in numbers can only help to promote awareness and I would consider this an initial step forward.

Thanks for all the feedback thus far and for all the comments and suggestion brought forward from this thread.

 

[Can-Do]

oh im sure this idea will get some peoples feathers in a ruffle. lots of people hate to spend $$$..LOL

why not implement some amount of trail pass cost MANDITORY to the CAC.
raise the cost from $15 to $20..5 of which goes right to the CAC. or more even.

its been told many times the CAC has action plans and ideas to help ALL backcounrty access users. not just us sledders. in fold that makes OUR community look semi responcible, that we are trying to accomplish something for everyone ( great political view.)

how can we not want to give funds to the CAC? is there really anyone who thinks the CAC is a waste of time? they dont exist without money and as it is work days for some individuals are being cut back weekly. hours lost from mindful individuals that pave the way for our safety. yes it would be nice for the levels of government to help in funding back country awareness by helping to fund the CAC, but can we really as sledders afford to wait around?

if we all sit back and wait for someone else to do for us that we can do for ourselves then this battle is already lost. you obviously do not love the sport enough if your not willing to fight for it one way or another.

will this stop AVY,s and garantee everyone makes it home safe? hell no
what it does do is help the SYSTEM that informs us of what conditions are going on in that backcountry. what the CAC does for us now is invaluable.. imagaine what they can do for us if they had the resources to implement other ideas for ALL of us.

ild be willing to bet our support of the CAC financialy would show the different levels of government that we as sledders are willing to help, and in turn if they see us making an effort then they may find it easier to help us out as well.

not to take this thread in a different direction, but a simple thougt of another way to get some sort of a ball rolling. come NOV 2011 if nothings happening on our part the boys who make all the descisions will be telling us how its going to be from now on

we need to be PRO-ACTIVE not apathetic to our situation

 

[Zacs]

Here's a quick update...

Zac's Tracs began fundraising drives for the Canadian Avalanche Centre back in October and through 3 separate initiatives we have now collected $3405.
This does not include funds donated directly to the CAC, CAF, and Candles to Remember.



I am posting this to recognize some of the pro-active members of our community. Follow this link to view the donors and consider joining in the effort.

Online donations are accepted year round and there is more than one way contribute.

Thanks guys! Keep up the good work!

 

[smokindave]

I could get behind this idea if only it made sense.
Anyone that takes their AST 1 coarse and is taking the coarse because his wife wanted him too and does not pay attention through out the class,still gets a certificate.No one ever fails.
If this coarse was given and if you did not pass and did not recieve your certificate,you would put in more effort into learning what you were taught for your 300.00.
Then do you only ride with those people that have passed with a 95% grade minimum.
People need training but it has to be more of a coarse that must be passed in order to recieve a certificate.Then I might feel a littlebetter about riding with them.Just look at people on the road with drivers licenses,and they had to pass a test,still doesn't fix stupid,or we wouldn't see all the mayhem everyday on the streets.There is no easy solution.
This card idea may put more peoples lives at risk because they think they are riding with someone who has training,not knowing they slept at the back of the classroom.
Just my opinion!

 

[CUSO]

I usually kinda know what kind of rider a person is, just by spending 10 minutes talking to them. After about an hour of riding with them I know for sure. I guess you have to be careful as to who you ride with, and who you don't.
Like a lot of peeps say on here, you can't fix stupid.... how about you can't fix ignorant.
Most peeps that I know, that I ride with, took the course. They became more cautious, conscientious riders.

 

[GasCan]

Like a lot of peeps say on here, you can't fix stupid.... how about you can't fix ignorant.
Most peeps that I know, that I ride with, took the course. They became more cautious, conscientious riders.

Very true Cuso!

I took the course with 40+ people in a class, and everyone was getting involved in the studies. When I took the field course, it was even more apparent that people were there to learn! Everyone was totally engaged in the field course. Still have doubts...take a course and find out for yourself. You might just come away with more education or perhaps a better understanding of something you thought you knew well???

Nuff said!

 

[DV8ED Digger]

I Love your idea Gascan.

I have no formal AVY training but have tried to educate myself via forums and the CAC site. I stay aware of the conditions in the areas that I ride and I choose to ride in areas that present a lower risk. My desire to return to my family safely is stronger than my desire for thrills beyond my level of education.
That being said, I am enrolling in an AVY course ASAP before next season.

IMO (and just an opinion here) and as much as I loathe the idea of more fees, I would be willing to pay afew more dollars per year to begin to eliminate the abusers that are painting us all with the same brush. So to that end I would support a system as outlined by Gascan but would like to suggest that it be made mandatory. In the oilpatch, I have to renew my safety tickets every 2 or 3 years whether I use them or not. Doing so with an Avy 'ticket' would ensure that the training was refreshed every three years.

The majority of backcountry users are responsible people who want their access to the mountains to remain open and available. A system that required backcountry users (sledders, skiers, boarders, heli-skiing/sledding etc.) to prove a certain level of Avy/risk awareness before attacking the slopes would go a long way towards bringing the level of awareness and education up to a more acceptable level. It would not however completely eliminate the risk of our chosen hobby nor exclude stupidity or even Mother Nature from showing her true forcefullness.
For those lost causes who insist on riding/skiing in ways that jeopordize our favorite past-time there should be a visible registration number to go with all "Avy certified" backcountry users (similar to boating registration) that could be removed for a predetermined time in the event of a reported/proven infraction of a known posted out of bounds area (caribou closures etc.) or other legally defined act of stupidity. Perhaps if there was something for these riders to lose they would begin to think twice before possibly ruining access to the backcountry for all users.

If afew extra dollars every three years would help to solidify mountain access for myself, my family and my riding buddies I would overcome my loathing of another 'fee' and chip in to promote safe and CONTINUED riding for years to come.

Just my opinion.

 

[assaultbear]

Lots of great discussion here. Important to note, those bit#hing about only being another card/tax are quite possibly the ones who do the craziest things out there and don't think anything will go wrong. Been to the Mountains 2x and scared out of my mind both times. Had a local guide the first time and not sure he did'nt add to the fright! Had all the proper equipment and short training on how to use it. Also researched lots on internet before and after riding out there. Will be looking for and taking the classroom part this fall on the prairies somewhere to be ready if necessary. Can't imagine how paniced people would be if forced to suddenly use search on their beacon with no training. At least with the classroom training it would not be foreign the first time you were forced to use the search mode. Agree it's absolutly necessary to mobilize before someone in their office decides for us!

 

[rgutmann]

I could get behind this idea if only it made sense.
Anyone that takes their AST 1 coarse and is taking the coarse because his wife wanted him too and does not pay attention through out the class,still gets a certificate.No one ever fails.
If this coarse was given and if you did not pass and did not recieve your certificate,you would put in more effort into learning what you were taught for your 300.00.
Then do you only ride with those people that have passed with a 95% grade minimum.
People need training but it has to be more of a coarse that must be passed in order to recieve a certificate.Then I might feel a littlebetter about riding with them.Just look at people on the road with drivers licenses,and they had to pass a test,still doesn't fix stupid,or we wouldn't see all the mayhem everyday on the streets.There is no easy solution.
This card idea may put more peoples lives at risk because they think they are riding with someone who has training,not knowing they slept at the back of the classroom.
Just my opinion!

Some good points. I have always said training is always a good thing. Maybe CPR , First Aid and back country survival courses should also be required. My point here is where do we draw the line. But if you think a person with training is a safe bet to ride with, think again. There are sledders with training that I would never ride with. Was sledding at silent pass this last week and was stunned to see some guys high marking a steep hill with a huge overhang while other sledders watching below. Wouldn't catch me going up in harm's way to tell them they needed to move to a safer area. Wonder how many of the six guys had avy training? I don't but will get trained next Nov or Dec but am still able to recognize the hazards.

 

[rgutmann]

The more I read the posts the more I see this as this being history re written just like the boat operator's card back in the late 90's . I mean this as a compliment to Gascan's idea and Snowchuks / JohNIT's comments. a few boating accidents and then a system was created to ensure that operators are competent. No matter what system - you can't cure stupid people but this system can only help.

Just wondering if you would feel safer will a 16 year old who chalenged his boat operators card and passed at a boat show or a person who has operated a watercraft for 20 plus years without a operators card. For the most part what you have to do to get your boat operators card is a joke.

 

[GasCan]

You don't get your AST-1 or AST-2 card from reading a book and passing a 30 question multiple choice quiz, you get it from paying the dough and taking an (8) hour classroom course followed by (1) or as many as (3) full days in the field as a real world environment. Lets be serious for a moment here folks. When I took the AST-1 class, I was looking to expand my knowledge beyond that of the info I have gathered on the net. The classroom portion was pretty good, but it was driving out to Quartz and getting instructions from Pro's on the mountain that really brought it all together for me.

There was 26 people in the AST-1 course I took earlier this year, and each and every one of us dug snow pits, analyzed hoar frost, faceted snow, bonding of layers, weakness in layers, and snow column tests to see where the columns would break and slide. You learn how to read the slopes as you climb to see what recent weather has done, how and where to look for wind loading, cornices, instability, terrain traps, run out chutes, creek beds and everything else. This info is absolutely critical when it comes to choosing your lines, your riding areas, your safe zones, and protecting the thing that's most important out there "your life". Put all of that into play with experience, and the helpful CAC reports and you can make smart decisions.

You can gather a lot of smarts by riding the areas over many years with people you trust, but for someone like myself that just got back into sledding and recently jumped into mountain riding, the course was paramount. I saw 20 years olds, 30 year olds, and a few over 40 who were taking the class along side me, and I'll bet most of them who completed the in field portion can handle themselves appropriately in the back country. These weren't people who were out to waste their time, they were active sledders who all had seat time in the Rockies, and people who were there to learn the proper techniques to perform snow checks, beacon searches, advanced probing, and recoveries.

It's no joke people. It's a real world course in a real world environment that actually teaches you something. If you combine that with real world riding skills and years of back country riding, you have someone I'd trust my life with. Like I said earlier, it doesn't give someone an instant pass to ride with another person or group, but it does show they were willing to learn and have taken the course. Don't kid yourself people, there are also many on the hills who have been riding for years and recently benefited from a course in the last couple years, and there are just as many out there that would still benefit from one. Just because you've been riding an area for 10 years doesn't mean you know it all, and neither does a course by itself. It takes a combination of real world skills, knowledge, proper training, and a good dose of common sense to make a person well skilled in my books.

As for the cards becoming reality...it's already happening folks. I was informed late this past week that sanctioning bodies are getting involved and that one has already stepped up to the plate and committed to supporting this idea. Watch for more details being released in the coming weeks. It won't be another "tax", "licence", or "burden" placed on anyone, but it will now be a visible tool to show that someone has taken level 1 or level 2 training.

If you'd like to know more about AST-1 (2-Day Course) or AST-2 (4-Day Course) outlines, click on these links.

 

[08summit]

Everyone has there opinion...As long as you are comfortable riding with a group that has there "Sticker" or "card" and that makes you feel safe and comfortable thats good for you. I believe everyone who is going to ride the backcountry should have the proper training and all the proper gear with the know how to use it but I am not naive enough to believe everyone who has one of these fancy stickers can be trusted to use there knowledge and make proper decisions enough to trust with my life. No matter what way this gets sliced up its just another money grab like boat license and the gun registry no matter how fancy you make your "stickers".

 

[GasCan]

No matter what way this gets sliced up its just another money grab like boat license and the gun registry no matter how fancy you make your "stickers".

You know 08summit, it's not about making a "fancy sticker", or a "fancy card" as you so put it. It's simply about identifying who has stepped up and taken some formal avalanche training, and yeah...it's a good thing! As for the asinine comments about "boat registries" and "gun licensing", and "tax grabs" like come on people...get serious!

This isn't something that is gonna cost anything at this time, and for anyone who has been trained or anyone who will be trained, it may in fact be 100% free of charge. You don't have to like it people, but it's something that shows the public, the media, and others who care about our sport that "we" can do something amongst ourselves to make it safer.

Something to better create awareness and training. Something that shows we are concerned about avalanche fatalities, and something that shows we are proactive enough to promote that we ride differently during times of high risk. Maybe if more of us support this initiative rather than criticize it, we won't be forced to do something by local or federal governments who are contemplating that right now. I can tell you this, if we don't do something soon, then someone is gonna do it for us, and then you'll have something to bitch about.

I'm done defending this now, and I know there are always gonna be those who think they are above it, and those who thinks it's a wasted effort, but the ones who embrace it are the ones we might soon be thanking for keeping government regulations off of our backs. Think about that one and when you see someone wearing this card next season, and you will...maybe you can smile on them and say; thanks, for stepping up!

If I hear more on industry officials and/or governing bodies endorsing this initiative, I'll post it up!

 

[Can-Do]

IL bet half the people here who are against this card work in a trade or has at some point worked in or on an indutrial site. where its manditory for H2S, Fall Arrest not to mention many other certificates. the argument i see is the typical " how does a card make you any better".. well it probably doesnt and thats not the point. if your only argument to this card is that someone can easily aquire it by being in the class room. well i say you all put your life in the other guys hands when you go to work, who says he payed any attention on how a Scott pack works. or how to give CPR.

weak ass arguments against trying to make the cumminity look responcible. come up with better arguments or STHU