Get Behind This People- Avy Card Idea - Everyone Please Read!

[foothills m8]

If u pay for education use it ?????????????

 

[Zacs]

Not to stray from your idea, but some what on the same topic, is last night I seen on the news the release of the new avalanche warning/rating system, hopefully we'll see this made into signs at trail heads, much like we see the forest fire hazard signs all over, as well I'd like to see this info posted permanently and updated daily on websites like this then people can't say I didn't know.

Personally, I believe that any signage is helpful in raising awareness. The CAC has been working on general signage but I do not know if they have found corporate sponsors that are interested in funding the materials and labor to build and install these signs.
I believe that danger ratings at the trail heads would need to display the ratings for all three elevation bands. The forecasters have now started to use icons for the primary concerns. Maybe they could be included as well?
Sounds great, but it does require a customizable sign and also requires that someone maintain each of these signs. Not sure if all communities have the resources or inclination to do this on a regular basis. A non-current rating board could get someone in trouble.


With or without the interactive sign, I believe that it is important to display a print out of the current Avalanche Forecast at the active trailheads (where trail fees collected.)

My reasoning:
- While a sign displaying High or Extreme (Natural and Human Triggered avalanches are Likely or Certain), would hopefully encourage changes in snowmobiler's travel habits and choices, the majority of fatalities have statistically occurred during periods of Considerable. While Considerable means that Naturally Triggered avalanches are Possible, Human Triggered avalanches are Probable, many people get desensitized to this rating and see it as 'average', just orange...and let there guard down a little too much.

The hazard rating is just one small part of the puzzle and while it does wake people up to acknowledge that they are about to enter into avy terrain, it is really the full BULLETIN that we want them to access.​

Considerable can mean very different things depending on the day.
For example:
One day could be Considerable with instabilities noted in alpine features on NW, N, NE slopes due to recent wind loading. ==> relatively small areas of instability, lots of available options for safer travel

A different day could be Considerable with instabilities on all aspects at all elevations from a new storm overloading a widespread weak layer. ==> relatively large areas of instability...much harder to avoid.
VERY, VERY different odds of exposing yourself to weak areas yet the same danger rating.**

Riders that make travel decisions based on the Danger Ratings (color on the chart) without the text should really ride with a super broad margin of safety.
To open up more terrain options read the text and HEED THE TEXT, including the 'travel advisory'.

** The new Danger Rating system that was announced by the Minister Jim Prentice a couple days ago, may be addressing this issue. I know that it's goal is to communicate hazard rather than just probability and trigger size.

***Of course the Avalanche Forecasts are meant to be consulted in the pre-trip planning stage in order that expectations for the trip can be set BEFORE leaving home.

 

[Zacs]

I'd like to see this info posted permantly and updated daily on websites like this then people can't say I didn't know.

Agree that links for the CAC website are important. Not sure if people are aware...there is now an application for the iPhones for the Forecasts.


Also, we can Subscribe to the avalanche forecasts to automatically receive them by email.
Subscribe to CAC Bulletins

Staying current with the Bulletins is a great way to learn (costs $0) and helps us see the patterns in the weather that create the weak layers in the snowpack.

 

[SnowBuggy]

Hey gascan good ideas. We are not talking about hundreds of sledders we are talking thousands. promoting AST and honing skills is great idea but not everyone is an s&m user.How can we get the rest on board. I strongly agree signs at the trail heads is a start. perhaps With avalanche danger level and this is avalanche country do you have training to recognize the dangers.

 

[Zacs]

Awesome posts in this thread by the way.

We have considered business card sized certificate cards, but we just didn't get a simple system in place yet to produce them. Sounds like Gas Can might be able to help tho!

I like the idea of the card as an awareness tool (conversation piece) but like many of those that have posted in this thread I am not interested in any kind of required training.

Requirements and rules create animosity and the attitude 'I'll take the stupid class and put the useless ticket in my wallet'. With this motivation to take the training is it entirely likely that the training will never be applied.

Like many have already mentioned, simply attending a class is not the answer. Being avy savvy is more about having an attitude of respect for backcountry rules and the willingness to source out reliable information and then act on it.

I believe that the atmosphere that we need to create is one of curiosity.

Curiosity about the value of avy safety. Curiosity about the rescue skills of our riding partners. Curiosity about what impact today's weather will have on next week's snow stability. Curiosity about the Human Factors that are most challenging to our group's safety. Curiosity about 'Can I be avy savvy and still have fun'? Is it really possible to be safe and not be a geek? Can I really be safe without digging a bunch of pits?

There are advantages to snowmobiles. We need to want to learn what they are and exploit them.

 

[Hangfire]

Gascan, I really appreciate on the effort you put into this post. I have been avoiding the forums this week and trying to clear my own head after being in revy last weekend.

I agree with Lori that I don't think courses should be "mandatory" for the reasons people have already listed (just taking it to get the card..)
This card would be a great way for people to know who has taken an AST course, and perhaps a little added push that some might need to to finally sign up for a course.
however, I don't not believe that taking a course will automatically make someone a safer person to ride with, and the card could give off some false impressions. While the hands on portion of the course is hard to ignore (rescue skills, snow pits, reading terrain and looking for obvious clues), the classroom portion can be ignored and people may not check the bulletin before they go out, or really remember what it all means..


Even if one pays attention for the whole course, It is one thing to know something, and quite another to act on it, and another to do this consistently , regardless of all the variables (fun, snow, sun, group, familiarity, etc) I have been with experienced people, with training, riding like they can just hit the "beam me up" button any time trouble comes around, while others with no formal training are making very smart calls based on their experience. Unfortunately this usually means they have "experienced" something scary out there before. Not always.

That is where the AST courses come in to play. For those who WANT to learn, and try as best as they can to avoid being involved in an avalanche. I feel the card is a great step in the direction of getting more people aware and educated on the subject. Some groups may choose to ride with "card carriers" only, others may just stop and talk with each other about their training, conditions, thoughts on the day ahead, etc.. and some may think they mean nothing, that even the most skilled and experienced person can make mistakes out there. And they can.

If it's cards everyone decides they want, instead of a certificate, then that will be the way, anything is possible.
I don't know what the answer to all these accidents is. It's a rapidly growing sport and we have so many more people in the backcountry every year. I hope that the people that do choose to take the AST courses are there because they want to learn, gather information, feel some confidence in their decisions (especially the ones to turn around), and be able to make it home after a great day of riding.

I am behind this card, it would be great to see them out there as a very positive thing for the snowmobile community. Maybe a sticker for your sled is another option. Lets see what more people think about it! Have you gotten a response from the CAC?

 

[mikecbi]

wow a card for avy training.sounds like the gun registry.a card is not going to stop people from being idiots in the mountains.just because you said you r not riding with them doesnt mean they are going to load up and go all the way home.there going to ride any way.i know there is no set solution and avy training is a good start ,but a card on your jacket dont mean squat.

 

[H2SNOW]

well right off the hop , that won't work. are we saying that some clown passes the test , but we don't know his azz from a hole in the grounds , but he is worthy of the tribe ??? not , thanks but I'll ride by myself .............

 

[Alberta Boy]

I am totally into this.
Sure there are many people who have taken an AST-1 course and are still pushing the envelope, but you have to know who you ride with.
I have ridden with some people who you would think were avalanche aware and they talk about creating their own slides, and still ride with more than one on a hill.... this card might be the answer to removing all doubt.

I agree! The card is a great idea! For some people it is a difficult discussion to broach with a group of people but it should be the first thing that is dicussed... after all, they could be the ones that are responsible for saving your life!

As some have mentioned, this is NOT the cure but at least it shows that sledders are looking at this issue from a responsible standpoint and are self regulating... I know ALL ABOUT self regulation with the line of work that I am in... manage yourself or someone else will do it for you! That is not what we want!

 

[retiredpop]

I don't see the advantage of having a card or sticker to show that a person has avalanche training. We usually ride with the same people most of the time, right? We know those people and probably trust them or we would not be riding with them. If someone that you don't know wants to ride with you then just ask them what avalanche training they have. If they have none then just politely tell them you don't wish to take the risk of riding with them.
What good would it do to have a card or sticker to show? It's not like you are going to go up to another group and say "Hey, I don't see your cards. Do you have avalanche training? Maybe you shouldn't be here." I can imagine the reaction you would get.

 

[Torch]

BC is now contemplating legislation to try and regulate us. Implementing this type of control measure ourselves will help to limit the extent of these rules. We must get united behind this. Thanks for starting the ball rolling Gas Can.

 

[Washy]

like Maxwell said just because ya sat through the course, it does not make people make the right decisions....

yes the course and every bit of knowledge helps but by no means are you experienced beacause of a weekend long course...



again great thought GasCan every bit helps,, but no more FEE's please lol...

Exactly, anyone been to a confined space course, watch how many guys dont even go into the vessel and at the end of the day get the ticket. Just because you sat in one of these courses dont mean crap. It will give more knowledge but will it stop people from climbing where they should not. NO.

 

[GasCan]

Some here are kind missing the point on the idea of the card here? It's suggested use and distribution method is based on multi purpose use where it could be issued to anyone taking a course through the participating training facilities including studies for AST-1 & AST-2 courses. As said earlier, this would at least identify that someone has at least taken the course. I know some feel threatened about making this more visible, but get over it...it's ALL GOOD. We all now there are many out there who have enough skill or trust in their riding buddies to save their lives, and lets all hope that it never has to be tested, or that when it does, it works for all parties and they haven't forgotten something.

I did not say this grants anyone privileges, or an actual right to ride with any specific group, or special status in the community. But it does show they have taken a good step in the right direction. As mentioned in the original post, there are a great many people riding without these skills, and that even goes as far as trail riders who get out to sled while unknowingly crossing avalanche terrain, or others who infrequently visit the mountains. While it's suggested use will not be for everyone, it would promote more training and that will benefit anyone new to the sport, or anyone requiring a refresher. I would bet there are people in many groups that cannot even use a beacon properly, and even more who do not practice it AT ALL. Seriously, we all know people who just switch it on, fuel up and ride out, and we all know how many people riding sleds that don't even use computers never mind study CAC forecasts. How many people force everyone in their group to ride test their beacons while leaving the lot? I bet it's far less than 50%, and that's not acceptable, because those who let this go might ignore a lot of other things before they go out. What would happen if you didn't check your buddies beacon and he got swept off a trail on the way in? Seriously...think about that. Not saying that you do this, but we all know many people who don't, and that is purely complacent, and should have no room in our sport.

My suggestion is not to become defensive about this, but try and be open minded and think of others before thinking of yourself. It could save a life, keep someone out of a slide area, or allow someone who has been recently trained to practice their skills with the potential to save someone elses hide? It could prompt some guy that has no formal training to get some, it could help a new rider get on the map with developing skills, or improve their knowledge base regarding life safety. No harm in that at all!

It's not a gun registry, it's not a suggestion for everyone to run out and get a card, and it's not a tax or another cost for anyone to get their wallets wrapped around. It's an idea going forward on plastic rather than paper where each person who completes sanctioned training gets an ID card that all can see. It includes not only the info on the course they have taken, but how recent they took the course or perhaps a refresher class. It could also note their emergency contact info. That's a good thing!

Try not thinking about yourselves here people, or that anythings gonna threaten your riding group, or the way you go about sizing up your day on the hills. Would it benefit others to know someone has taken a class to gain knowledge, YES. Would it help if we came across someone that was injured where their emergency contact info was right there in the open, YES. Would it prompt me to test a persons knowledge of avy conditions and threats, YES. We I be more comfortable knowing people I ride with have at least taken a course (regardless of their previous skill set), YES.

This isn't about forcing an issue or making people take a course if they think their skills are already good enough, it's about AWARENESS, so open up your minds folks. Nobody's trying to change how you do things, but you better be wise that changes are a coming. Be it Government, Registries or whatever comes down the pipe, you can rest assured things will be changing and soon. The quicker this community gets behind something that improves it's image of safety, training, and preparedness, the better it will be for us.

Think about that one for a minute before you reply. What harm comes from a card being issued for course training going forward, none. It helps on many fronts and costs nothing. Mere pennies to produce, and something that can be worn proudly by those who have taken the course in it's entirety. You don't get one if you take half the class, and you better know that he course trainers are gonna make you participate in the field course training if you want to earn one. Try not to let that bother some of you as it may. I know some people hate change, but try and be open minded folks. Thats all!

 

[steel town]

There are some great ideas and comments in this thread guys/gals.
I have stated in a previous post in this tread what we do as a dealer to promote avy awareness but it is still up to the consumer/sledder to take what what they learn and apply it to their riding.
When I first moved out to Banff in 1997 I had been skiing/snowboarding for 20 years at that point and thought I knew everything. During my first season some friends and I decided to do a back country trip to rogers pass, after 1 day there I realized I know nothing about the mountians, I did not even know how to dress properly for the situation.
Back then I took a Avalanche Awareness course with the Alpine Club in Canmore and learn lots of valuable info, most of it I had forgotten over time.

This season I was witness to a good sized Avy started at Quartz. My group was sitting in a valley having lunch watching and admiring how well a few guys turbo sleds were working, but also noticing that the group of riders were sitting in a run out zone, below a large convex bowl and highmarking over a few stuck sleds. I wont get into any more details about the event because the situation before and after got ugly with finger pointing and such, but the next weekend I signed up for the ASt1 class with hangfire with my wife and a fellow sales guys at my shop. Even though some of the info they went over was routine, the two days I spent in golden studying snow packs and scoping dangerous lines/crossings has helped me very much .

Last Saturday when I was busy at the auto show I got a text form my boss about the slide at turbo and I was imediatley mordified. I new that I had many customers and friends there and knew the outcome would not be good. The first person I though about was Pierre Boudoin, he was the older French guy who was in the interview with the media in the parking lot after the event. It really struck home to me at that second because I knew he was alive. Even better I saw some video footage of the probe lines and there he was doing his best bloddy nose and all. I knowen him for a decade as I have sold him and his sons many motocross bikes and they are Wild rose Motocoss club members and just good people. One thing I could be proud of myself is the fact that I practially forced Pierre to take his ASt1 course, I also would not let him leave the shop when he picked up his summit this winter without a new Barryvox pulse beacon and all the other goodies.
Anyhow Pierre's sled is now at my shop and its pretty wrecked, but he is still here and I'm gonna take him sledding again, and part of the reason is because he took a course and used what he had learned and he will be riding next year.
So thanks to Aaron and Ryan at Hangfire, keep up the great work.

 

[T-team]

well right off the hop , that won't work. are we saying that some clown passes the test , but we don't know his azz from a hole in the grounds , but he is worthy of the tribe ??? not , thanks but I'll ride by myself .............

........... your dumb.

 

[2manykids]

........... your dumb.

Why ? what makes him dumb?

 

[BC Sno-Ghost]

Lots of good ideas in your post gascan but like stated above taking a weekend course doesn't make you any smarter or automatically give you what some of us call "common sense".

You said it would be nice to roll up on a group and know who has what skills and who doesn't...I'm a little more fussy then you with whom I'm trusting my life with...just because someone has a certificate doesn't make them any safer or smarter.

I'm not trying to knock your suggestions as I think everyone who rides in the mountians today should have proper training but that being said I ride with some guys who have no formal training that I trust to ride with (therefore basically trust with my life) and have in the past rode with some that have all the training you can take and they are still idiots.

Like I said lots of good Ideas out there but a certificate around your neck or a sticker on your sled isn't going to impress me....just another fee for us all to pay @ the end of the year.

This is exactly my line of thinking as well. Most of the guys I ride with I would trust my life to, on and off the slopes. I like the saying, "No Skills..No Hills"....catchy but how about.."Could that slope slide, Not for me to ride". (I just made that up...pretty good huh! :d)
The benefit I do see though in all of us getting more education is "improving our image to the public". Right now the comments are just rampant out there about how "Stupid" sledders are and how we all need to be "Regulated".....you've all seen the posts everywhere I'm sure. We're all going to have to portray ourselves in a more responsible manner after the current events, but there is always going to be that handful that never will be.
Stay Safe this weekend everyone.

 

[GasCan]

I am behind this card, it would be great to see them out there as a very positive thing for the snowmobile community. Maybe a sticker for your sled is another option. Lets see what more people think about it! Have you gotten a response from the CAC?

I did email the CAC on this thread and believe their director Ian Tomm has read the initial post. He replied via email and asked if we could talk on the phone early next week. I plan to make myself available to chat with him, and also emailed the ASA and BCSF regarding this idea. I would like to see them weigh in as well.

I plan on talking with CAC representatives on Tuesday but that may be pushed back now with the second incident happening at Eagle Pass this weekend. It's time for some change.

 

[rgutmann]

like Maxwell said just because ya sat through the course, it does not make people make the right decisions....

yes the course and every bit of knowledge helps but by no means are you experienced beacause of a weekend long course...



again great thought GasCan every bit helps,, but no more FEE's please lol...

I agree, been riding in the mountains for 15 plus years. I have no avy training but am able to see when a area is unsafe due to amount of snow, conditions before snow falls, avy warnings, angle of hill, over hangs , etc. I have to wounder where the common sence factor kicks in here. I also carry a bacon, probe, shovel, radios ,a spot and have a snowpulse air bag system. All these items I know how to use. Just woundering how many others carry the same? Training is great if you use it but will it make a difference?

 

[CUSO]

I agree, been riding in the mountains for 15 plus years. I have no avy training but am able to see when a area is unsafe due to amount of snow, conditions before snow falls, avy warnings, angle of hill, over hangs , etc. I have to wounder where the common sence factor kicks in here. I also carry a bacon, probe, shovel, radios ,a spot and have a snowpulse air bag system. All these items I know how to use. Just woundering how many others carry the same? Training is great if you use it but will it make a difference?

I used to think that way too.