850 turbo 165 (stock clutch) vs Xpert 165 (iBackshift)

[Lund]

85-90kmh could very well be true. Let’s see it. Just a buncha words so far. I hope to see one soon and I can believe the hype and drink the doolaide.

Fyi-Doo is currently my fave manufacturer.

Proof, I don't know Maxwell, never met him but been around turbos and big HP long enough to know he speaks true.
Its just this simple, without even trying the sled, no matter what brand the HP and torque will dictate its track speed with all things being equal. Todays big track sleds will chew up.
165hp will generate about 50mph, 200hp will generate about 60mph, 250hp will generate about 65-68mph and if your looking for over the 70 mark, then you need about 300HP. I know this from seat time and not being an egghead behind a keyboard.
Now did you notice it takes a lot of ponies to make a gain of 1mph, it takes a lot of HP to make big track speed. 1mph don't seem very much but makes a massive difference on a big deep heavy climb.
How you make that horse power, BB, Nitrous, Turbo, Blower makes no difference when all things are equal the final result will be similar.
The advantage of the 850T from BRP is the fact that it MAINTAINS its claimed 165hp as you go up in elevation up to its set parameter of 8,000ft and does not add more HP to the given 165. So meaning it will chew up snow the same as a 850NA at sea level as it does at elevation. So flatlanders, save your coin the 850T is useless for you.

I ran BB, Turbo's, Nitrous BB, Nitrous over Turbo's and the results are all similar, HP and torque combined makes big track speed.
I had a custom Doo on NOS, 170hp with 35hp shot. It would pull about 47-48mph then with the 35hp hit would climb to about 54-55mph. Lots of extra hp for such gain.
My Nytro ran a 260hp turbo with a 35hp NOS shot. It would get about 65mph and all most 70mph (68-69mph)with the NOS backup.
This shows that 1mph gain is not easy to get on a consistent pull.
Joeys kits DO NOT add hp to the engine but can add TRACK hp on its initial hookup, giving the sled a jump in the range where most people ride, but once shifted out as to the limits of the engine hp Joeys kit or stock will not make a difference, they will both equalize very close to the same. But of course when you have a sled that makes improve track hp at lower shift it will hold a better track speed. The numbers will be small in comparison to additional engine HP but never the less 1mph makes a world of a difference in the steep and deep and that's the real PROOF.

 

[Lund]

The skidoo guys are sure stretching the truth here. 79-81 kmh track speed is all that skidoo turbo can pull. Not sure how Karl and get 19 kmh more, maybe Sicamous gets better HP. Back to cluthcing.

The first thing to look at is the secondary spring.. 157/303 is a crazy stiff spring. I will be going lighter next season. I also want to look at and weigh the new ramps and see how they compare to the 965 ramps. The primary spring is a 150/350, I will also go lighter on that spring. These super stiff springs are horribly in-effiecent. I also find the straight 40 slow for backshift, on/off throttle response, and bottom end pull.

The team tied set up will take a bit to figure out as its so sensitive, but i expect some significant gains with this set up.

I have all ways ran light spring on all my sleds, have been for years. Heavy springs is old school thinking....like blimping the throttle LOL.

 

[Caper11]

It’s not insane it’s 85-90km/h in a tough deep snow chew is very respectable on a 165 3” 16 wide track. That’s 15-20km/h more than NA it’s extremely noticeable

Thats respectable track speed on a deep snow climb. Lesser snow conditions, hill grade, it can be possible for the 850t to see 60mph, even possible to see that at the start of a climb, but it will not maintain it. It takes BIG HP to sustain fully loaded high trackspeed numbers, with very low ground speed.
Get guys in a group that compared on that exact same day, makes for good conversation over a beer in the evening. Bringing those numbers to a open forum, the person reading has to have a good open mind on what they are reading, cause they were not there, so its not worth worrying or arguing over.


Regardless of all the numbers posted, speedo error, conditions, sled setup etc, the vids that DJ posted were good comparisons of the potential of the 850T.
I think we all can agree that this new 850T is awesome, and has a ton of potential.

 

[fredw]

Texted dean about his track speeds and yes we both seen 97-98km/hr track speed the three times I tried it on Alberta hill just like many others have, on the short 165 track new t doo

The Sibler turbo was doing 100-102km/hr on the bigger 175 track 5-6lbs on 850..

Aerocharger in a 174 800 Etec does 58-68 mph depending on boost levels

Redline 850 does 104-126depending on boost on a 175

Impulse 800 does 104-124km/hr depending on boost in 800etec on 174

Stock 800 174 did 38-42mph/174

Stock 850/175 does 39-42mph

Good running BB are up to 46-50mph on a 174/800, would think a bit better on the 850

Mod bb with lightweight chassis and 174 low 50s can easily be there

Before adding this post I discussed it with a few other knowledgeable guys that watch track speeds carefully over the years for tuning, there sleds also work well and corespond to these numbers

 

[Lund]

Guys that watch their speedo's generally will be out a lot and tend to generalize or elaborate. Plus snow conditions, type of hill's and many other more factores will effect track speed.
Its nearly impossible to get a good feeling or an average on track speed by looking at a speedo. So in most cases I dismiss most claims. Proof is in the pudding and the only way to get a true average is if your sled records MAX speed for a given run. This way and only this way you can know the truth, till then its an educated and speculated guess.
This is what I use and have been for over 10yrs of setting up my sleds for my use, gear changes, driver changes, lug height and speedo error all effect final results.
https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/sh/

 

[maxwell]

Texted dean about his track speeds and yes we both seen 97-98km/hr track speed the three times I tried it on Alberta hill just like many others have, on the short 165 track new t doo

The Sibler turbo was doing 100-102km/hr on the bigger 175 track 5-6lbs on 850..

Aerocharger in a 174 800 Etec does 58-68 mph depending on boost levels

Redline 850 does 104-126depending on boost on a 175

Impulse 800 does 104-124km/hr depending on boost in 800etec on 174

Stock 800 174 did 38-42mph/174

Stock 850/175 does 39-42mph

Good running BB are up to 46-50mph on a 174/800, would think a bit better on the 850

Mod bb with lightweight chassis and 174 low 50s can easily be there

Before adding this post I discussed it with a few other knowledgeable guys that watch track speeds carefully over the years for tuning, there sleds also work well and corespond to these numbers

T850 stock is 80-85 MAX under load. If your pulling a hill at 100kmh it’s not loaded. Yep it will go that fast in marginal snow up a hill for sure but not fully loaded

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

Another post that's been completely destroyed into unrecognizable mush. You think daag was here.

Anyhoo...The first time you get out to ride, that is weekend 1(x) The last time you get to ride is weekend
The snow type and base between weekend 1 and when you park the sled is shaped like a bell curve for "best snow conditions" where you love it the most.

Lets say you got to ride 19 weekends. The last 20% of your riding is on one side of the bell curve, the snow is not "favorite peak snow condition" anymore. Some riders say "we're coming up to spring snow conditions". That's basically 4 weekends of snow past your "favorite peak snow condition". The 80% snow is getting set up and has intermittent light snowfalls dumped on top.

During "favorite peak snow condition" your sled is doing all it can to make track speed and there ain't enough power to get on top of the snow; just like a boat that can't get up onto plane. Like 9.9hp pushing a 14ft boat, it moves decent, but can't get on plane. Substitute the 9.9 for 15hp, now the boat gets on plane.

Some riders say "we're coming up to spring snow conditions". That's basically 4 weekends of snow past your "favorite peak snow condition" with intermittent snow dumped on top. At 6500 feet, you have an 850T that has the power to "get on top", get up on plane.

I linked Pat to this post around page 11. Pat read all of it, then called me up on the phone.
Firstly) Pat is the one who explained the boat analogy about the 9.9 vs. 15hp, "my sled gets on plane, Chris's sled doesn't". thats from Pat.
Secondly) Pat ain't going to post in this forum, rather he said if I want to, "go rub it in even more and make sure you tell them that im 280 with gear and Chris is 230 with gear, so not only did i get 58~60mph track speed when I let off, but i did it 50 pounds heavier than Chris" "Once my sled gets up on plane, it-fkks-rite-off from Chris, every time.

Without factoring into what the environment conditions are, clutch calibration, gearing; then, proposing that 55 to 60mph track speed is not obtainable is a failure of consideration and mere conclusion which tenders no issues of counterfacts.

 

[dragonweld28]

A boat analogy really... different tapers on the boat bottom, weight distribution, type of prop, prop pitch, if there in fresh water or salt water, these all affect the ability for the boat to get up on plane.

We're talking about REAL track speeds on mountain snowmobiles, climbing in deep snow at 7000'.... not drag racing in Ontario at 650'....

 

[maxwell]

I sort of agree with the with the boat analogy I think that was my biggest finding in “peak” deep snow conditions. My 850T was always on plane while I was blowing by NA sleds skidoo’s 850 included. that just couldn’t get on top. Regardless of trackspeed talks this sled gets on plane in DEEP snow

 

[kanedog]

Guys that watch their speedo's generally will be out a lot and tend to generalize or elaborate. Plus snow conditions, type of hill's and many other more factores will effect track speed.
Its nearly impossible to get a good feeling or an average on track speed by looking at a speedo. So in most cases I dismiss most claims. Proof is in the pudding and the only way to get a true average is if your sled records MAX speed for a given run. This way and only this way you can know the truth, till then its an educated and speculated guess.
This is what I use and have been for over 10yrs of setting up my sleds for my use, gear changes, driver changes, lug height and speedo error all effect final results.
https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/sh/

Using max speed recall is terrible advice. When you go over a slight bump, track speed will increase briefly with the lighter load. You are a very bad person. Shame on you! Haha

 

[fredw]

No it actually works very well, if you go into it slow and do a long pull it's accurate, proven that one over and over.. even in a ugly hole where you grab air, takes multiple seconds to get the centrifugal mass up in speed..

Now if your only using a third of the track it's naturally going to be not as accurate in anything..

The runs I did with new. tdoo it skis were in air some, three feet of fresh that day

 

[Lund]

I'm thinking everyone has their crazy idea on track speed and what is. Hell i'm sure that 850T can run 120-130km/hr too on certain snow and hill's.
I viewed the vid. posted that claimed 100km/hr track speed running away on the other sled. I know for a fact my wife would mosey her way up that any day...LOL
The boat analogy is sad but funny. All sleds pretty much in the right snow condition will over come resistant and get on top...well maybe not all. The sure thing is you don't need 165hp to get on step. And you need a lot more ponies to pull 100km/hr to pull mountain style climbs and not pussy hill's.

What did the Croc man say, "that's not a knife, that's a knife". As most mountain rider would say, "that's no climb, now that's a climb"

 

[lilduke]

Ive pulled those hill on a stock'ish T3, pretty sure the new Skidoo Turbski would do em....

(to be fair it was may long weekend, not in january)


Those hills arent for pussies though, you got that right.

 

[drew562]

Ive pulled those hill on a stock'ish T3, pretty sure the new Skidoo Turbski would do em....


Those hills arent for pussies though, you got that right.

Jim Kuster climbed them on a well set up M7 like forever ago.

 

[Lund]

Ive pulled those hill on a stock'ish T3, pretty sure the new Skidoo Turbski would do em....

(to be fair it was may long weekend, not in january)


Those hills arent for pussies though, you got that right.

I've pulled them on an overweight RT...LOL, years ago
But then that was not the point of the post haha

 

[lilduke]

I've pulled them on an overweight RT...LOL, years ago
But then that was not the point of the post haha

guess I missed the point haha


id say it takes more balls to climb them on a NA sled then on a 174 coupled turbo climber though!

 

[drew562]

guess I missed the point haha


id say it takes more balls to climb them on a NA sled then on a 174 coupled turbo climber though!

Way more balls. Maximum Consequences on a NA sled if it’s deep in the pinch. Or icy

 

[lilduke]

Way more balls. Maximum Consequences on a NA sled if it’s deep in the pinch. Or icy

plus when it's hard pack, not making it is very unforgiving!

 

[Lund]

guess I missed the point haha


id say it takes more balls to climb them on a NA sled then on a 174 coupled turbo climber though!

I was just implying eastern riders have a different idea on what some western riders consider worthy in big hill's department. Yes the 850T is capable of climbing this, seen lesser sleds climb it. But wonder what kind of track speed it would get? hahaha...

Inside the fingers tends to stay soft and real deep. Seldom icey, you should always test the hill anyways before attempting. Your more likely to stay stuck..LOL

 

[lilduke]

I was just implying eastern riders have a different idea on what some western riders consider worthy in big hill's department. Yes the 850T is capable of climbing this, seen lesser sleds climb it. But wonder what kind of track speed it would get? hahaha...

Ive never been a track speed guy. don't get me wrong I like track speed, I just don't watch to see what it is.

can you imagine climbing those on a stock t3 and watching your speedo the whole time? lmao must be a better rider than me!