what turbo for the etec

[NM]

The closest thing would be a turbocharged aircraft. And they run flawlessly. Only difference is the amount of throttle chops. However for a couple mill price tag they are required too work.

So in that sense I understand now it can be done but at what cost and at that point it may not even be worth it just like you say. I still dream of the day where there are no contol boxes just an sd card you slide into your fuel system for boost applications.......

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The engineer that builds our fuel controllers is one of the few in the world that builds a complete standalone fuel system for turbo charged personal aircraft, and he tells me that sleds are way tougher to tune. He actually told me that a mountain turbo sled is no place for a standalone fuel system and he has been building turbo fuel injection systems since 1980. Thats longer than you have been on this earth Maxwell! lol

What most people don't know about turbocharged airplanes, is that they only run about 1 lb boost and basically use the turbo charger for an altitude compensator. That way as the airplane goes up in elevation, the turbo has to work much harder to compress the air to 1 lb and it also keeps the intake pressure consistent.

The competition airplanes run more boost, but that is a very rare product and they always race at similar elevations. Even the standalone systems our engineer builds for airplanes has a trim knob that goes right on the dash in case the pilot has to add or subract small amounts of fuel instantly.

Sleds are much more difficult to tune.

 

[NM]

From what I have learned in the last 6 months, if anyone wanted "the best", it makes absolutely no sense to have a turbocharged sled without a good working water to air intercooler or airbox on closed loop. The difference to a non intercooled or an air to air system is amazing to say the least. We have them running on 4 strokes and 2 strokes and the results are undeniable.
Having said that...who has water to air airboxes and doesn't use a POS dobeck fuel controller?

 

[Modman]

The engineer that builds our fuel controllers is one of the few in the world that builds a complete standalone fuel system for turbo charged personal aircraft, and he tells me that sleds are way tougher to tune. He actually told me that a mountain turbo sled is no place for a standalone fuel system and he has been building turbo fuel injection systems since 1980. Thats longer than you have been on this earth Maxwell! lol

What most people don't know about turbocharged airplanes, is that they only run about 1 lb boost and basically use the turbo charger for an altitude compensator. That way as the airplane goes up in elevation, the turbo has to work much harder to compress the air to 1 lb and it also keeps the intake pressure consistent.

The competition airplanes run more boost, but that is a very rare product and they always race at similar elevations. Even the standalone systems our engineer builds for airplanes has a trim knob that goes right on the dash in case the pilot has to add or subract small amounts of fuel instantly.

Sleds are much more difficult to tune.

Great points Neil, I was actually thinking of the Boost-it system in my original post. I know that stand alone systems already exist for the auto industry, and realizing that sleds are run through some more rigorous lifecycles, is it an option to adapt something from the auto industry to the sled market though, at least for 4 strokes? There are numerous 4 banger systems out there for the Toyota Supra/Honda Civic turbo market (Hondata being a top name brand that comes to mind) and with the boosted Apex and Nytro's configuration similar to an auto style/streetbike package, would something like this be more feasible? Costs are under $2000 for some of these systems and they have the ability to control things like ignition timing etc. The 4 stroke takes boost to a whole new level with the engine packages out there now, obviously 2 strokes have some issues of their own relating to the tuning aspect. I'm not sure if there will ever be a plug-and-play chip like Maxwell wants, as adjustability is key for the huge range of variables that a sled will experience in a day. And yes, from scratch to develop a system would be a huge financial undertaking, which is why I was thinking of the auto style systems as the range and adjustability on them is almost infinite and could maybe just be adapted?

 

[NM]

Great points Neil, I was actually thinking of the Boost-it system in my original post. I know that stand alone systems already exist for the auto industry, and realizing that sleds are run through some more rigorous lifecycles, is it an option to adapt something from the auto industry to the sled market though, at least for 4 strokes? There are numerous 4 banger systems out there for the Toyota Supra/Honda Civic turbo market (Hondata being a top name brand that comes to mind) and with the boosted Apex and Nytro's configuration similar to an auto style/streetbike package, would something like this be more feasible? Costs are under $2000 for some of these systems and they have the ability to control things like ignition timing etc. The 4 stroke takes boost to a whole new level with the engine packages out there now, obviously 2 strokes have some issues of their own relating to the tuning aspect. I'm not sure if there will ever be a plug-and-play chip like Maxwell wants, as adjustability is key for the huge range of variables that a sled will experience in a day. And yes, from scratch to develop a system would be a huge financial undertaking, which is why I was thinking of the auto style systems as the range and adjustability on them is almost infinite and could maybe just be adapted?

If you look at what Impulse has done with the Yamaha engines, it is basically using a automotive type system and adding it to a sled. Going back to what I said earlier though is that a vehicle has no where close to the running conditions as a sled, especially when you compare engine load variations. A car is always on a road surface or similar. If any system is going to work, then it will be a variation of a auto system.
Maxwells dream could come to reality if the OEM's built a factory turbo sled. At that point the factory map would only need a tweak in tune to run more boost. Where that theory breaks down a bit is when major changes are made to the chassis with respect to clutching, track, etc.

The aftermarkets are doing this for the Cat 1100 turbo's.

 

[oler1234]

MoTec...

 

[maxwell]

whaats that pcv autotune? only heard about it. how does it work.

 

[scrfce]

Vi-PEC Engine Management
supposedly theses stand alone systems are promising

 

[snowthing]

thanks for all the info guys. i am probably going to go with the areocharger in the end

 

[NM]

whaats that pcv autotune? only heard about it. how does it work.

It is power commander auto tune designed for bikes and now being tested on sleds. It doesnt work for a handful of reasons.

Might as well have Duck Commander, it would work as good! lol

 

[NM]

Vi-PEC Engine Management
supposedly theses stand alone systems are promising

Out of all the standalones on the market, this one has the most promise, but I would want to wait and see it proven in the hands of the customers. Any tuner can make a product like this work, but when the customers are using them, then things can go sideways in a hurry.
I personally know of 2 customers that have this product and one of them toasted a motor and the other couldn't get his sled to run past part throttle, and that was after 10 hrs on the phone with the supplier and 20 plus hours tuning it with a laptop.
The theory is good, but it has been a rough rollout to customers. I talked to one of the suppliers in Utah that is testing and selling the Vipec and he is very cautious about it.
It is also 2500.00 by the time you get it on your sled and you still need a laptop to tune it.

 

[Bnorth]

Great points Neil, I was actually thinking of the Boost-it system in my original post. I know that stand alone systems already exist for the auto industry, and realizing that sleds are run through some more rigorous lifecycles, is it an option to adapt something from the auto industry to the sled market though, at least for 4 strokes? There are numerous 4 banger systems out there for the Toyota Supra/Honda Civic turbo market (Hondata being a top name brand that comes to mind) and with the boosted Apex and Nytro's configuration similar to an auto style/streetbike package, would something like this be more feasible? Costs are under $2000 for some of these systems and they have the ability to control things like ignition timing etc. The 4 stroke takes boost to a whole new level with the engine packages out there now, obviously 2 strokes have some issues of their own relating to the tuning aspect. I'm not sure if there will ever be a plug-and-play chip like Maxwell wants, as adjustability is key for the huge range of variables that a sled will experience in a day. And yes, from scratch to develop a system would be a huge financial undertaking, which is why I was thinking of the auto style systems as the range and adjustability on them is almost infinite and could maybe just be adapted?

Hondata is not a true standalone, it is based off the oem ecu and uses only a distributor no COP. I have seen a couple Yamaha's using Big Stuff 3 but I think they were just flatland drag sleds. As stated above Motec is probably the best all around standalone that is readily available to consumers but the price tag is comparable to the turbo kit. I am intrigued by the possibilities with megasquirt/microsquirt. The biggest issue I see there though is the lack of product quality for an extreme environment. There is also a guy in NZ that has developed a free standalone system you just build the board, I have not looked into it much though (free ems).

 

[dvst8r]

The big problem I see with the microsquirt/megasquirt is that it would have to be used as a piggyback setup similar to to what boost-it is already doing. The only couple advantages I see to doing it would be ignition control and the ability to run large aftermarket injectors and forgo extra injector setups. To run micro/mega as a true standalone (not piggyback) you would loose electronic reverse, and likely have to add a battery. Not only that but I think the tuning required to get it up and running as well as implementing it into a sled would be well beyond most people. I think personally I would run a 2 map sensor setup, so I could have one monitoring altitude and one looking at the intake manifold pressure.

With that being said pretty much all current standalone setups these days have enough resolution in the maps and control to run a sled even with the severe load and altitude changes. As Neil alluded to they are very intense operating conditions, about the only thing I can think of that even comes close is a hill climb setup where you have multiple racing surfaces and large altitude changes.

With all that being said, I enjoy riding more then I enjoy tuning, so even though I know I could implement an automotive standalone, I still wouldn't. Not worth the time and money and effort, when from what I have seen the boost-it setup and some race gas will get it done for 99% of sledders out there.

 

[jbb]

280hp with a aerocharger 2 stroke have to call that one bs.

280hp for 30sec.............boom!

 

[rsaint]

The big problem I see with the microsquirt/megasquirt is that it would have to be used as a piggyback setup similar to to what boost-it is already doing. The only couple advantages I see to doing it would be ignition control and the ability to run large aftermarket injectors and forgo extra injector setups. To run micro/mega as a true standalone (not piggyback) you would loose electronic reverse, and likely have to add a battery. Not only that but I think the tuning required to get it up and running as well as implementing it into a sled would be well beyond most people. I think personally I would run a 2 map sensor setup, so I could have one monitoring altitude and one looking at the intake manifold pressure.

With that being said pretty much all current standalone setups these days have enough resolution in the maps and control to run a sled even with the severe load and altitude changes. As Neil alluded to they are very intense operating conditions, about the only thing I can think of that even comes close is a hill climb setup where you have multiple racing surfaces and large altitude changes.

With all that being said, I enjoy riding more then I enjoy tuning, so even though I know I could implement an automotive standalone, I still wouldn't. Not worth the time and money and effort, when from what I have seen the boost-it setup and some race gas will get it done for 99% of sledders out there.

I am working on a micro squirt as a standalone on my 900 cat efi will use it for now as boost comes on to fire secondary injectors. You have to eliminate as many variables as possible such as a charge temp with a water to air intercooler a must, ran a aerocharger and the most tempermental sled to tune, for the average joe ok. There will never be the perfect running sled with a turbo close but because of clutching, alttitude, temperature and instant loading. I would think Neils boost it system would be fine for most.

 

[dvst8r]

So just as a piggy back fuel controller then? Or will it have ignition control as well? I would love to see your setup, I will have to PM you next time I am in whitecourt (seems to be about once a month these days).

I have an old wedge with a 583 rotax in it, sitting in my back yard. If I ever find the time / motivation I will put that on microsquirt and then add boost.

 

[rsaint]

So just as a piggy back fuel controller then? Or will it have ignition control as well? I would love to see your setup, I will have to PM you next time I am in whitecourt (seems to be about once a month these days).

I have an old wedge with a 583 rotax in it, sitting in my back yard. If I ever find the time / motivation I will put that on microsquirt and then add boost.

In the end will have full ignition control just got the 36-1 trigger wheel back and fitting it in with a hall sensor the ONLY way to have full preciece ignition control, looking for a old king cat chassis that i can stuff the motor in to do some playing with will be a long process and in the end will never be perfect but its my creation a few guys toying with similar setups but different motors.

 

[HardcoreRMK]

I'm telling you guys it is reliable.. ok don't go in the woods by your self but he has had it for 1 and a half seasons and he said its fine...oh sorry 260hp saw the numbers wrong hes got it on a 174" that he uses for drags and hill climbs...maybe he is lucky maybe not but that sled rips but still not as good as NM's Pro...(that thing is sick)..:d

 

[dvst8r]

In the end will have full ignition control just got the 36-1 trigger wheel back and fitting it in with a hall sensor the ONLY way to have full preciece ignition control, looking for a old king cat chassis that i can stuff the motor in to do some playing with will be a long process and in the end will never be perfect but its my creation a few guys toying with similar setups but different motors.

I fully agree trigger wheel is the only way to go. At one point when I was looking more seriously into building a sled running micro/mega I had even built a template to have waterjet cut. As you say that process is more of a learning / something to play with, then a pull and go sled. These days I find myself pulled in a thousand directions, and there are many things I put higher on the list to do with my free time. Someday I will revisit it.

 

[dvst8r]

Oh and just to move this back to being on track... To answer "What turbo for the etec?" Garrett GTX

 

[NM]

The biggest issues with any 2 stroke turbo kit is charge air temps, fuel control, and in the case of the e-tec, having the ability to work with the exhaust valves so they don't open too quickly. In some cases, if the exhaust valves are not set up properly, they will not close again even after the engine is shut off. This makes for a hard starting condition.