The twin vs triple debate. time to bring back the trip---or not?

[Longhairfreak]

Look past the twin jugs grasshopper !!

I think your pulling your numbers out your ( ! ) so ill show you what I found.

 

[CUSO]

If you tune the triple to what today's twin makes, the torque is pretty much on par.

 

[Clode]

Think of a fuel injected triple, with a turbo...crazy power would result.

 

[Longhairfreak]

If you tune the triple to what today's twin makes, the torque is pretty much on par.

View attachment 145810

Is it possible to get more toque from todays twins?

 

[CUSO]

Yes, do you think if there was a modern triple, you could get more torque?

Is it possible to get more toque from todays twins?

 

[CUSO]

Do you know how they calculate hp?

Is it possible to get more toque from todays twins?

 

[popcorn popper]

r

Not seeing them.

yes your right Longhair i read wrong!at 7500 rpm which is the lowest the triple is printed the two engines are within1 ftlb when reeds are added to triple.I would imagine the reeds have improved from 99 till 2012 when etec was built?Still no denying that when you look at triple it makes its peak tq lower(even though it is 6.5 ftlb less).However after modding triple you end up with 184 hp @8600 and 114.4 ftlbs @8300.Not to many twins at 800cc making that power?Trygstad 872 e-tec just hits 184?I wonder what a tried and true 925 cc etec triple would do?Bet it would be light years ahead of any twin banger!!Just as a note our 800cc triple that had most of these mods done but had smaller Jaws J1 pipes and a 151 2.5 track in a2000 zxchassis would run in the mtns with a etec and 154 track.The only thing we found with no dpm it would fall to different elevation changes and temp?Had this engine had dpm or etec tecnology it would have clearly beat them up even in a 13 year old chassis?

 

[CUSO]

Oh stop it Popcorn,

You are confusing LHF with those confusing words like e-tec, 2012, dpm and the word technology.

I'm sure he is busy diggin' LOL

As far as power, there was a thread on Snowest that Dynotech tested a turbo 1080 or something like that, and it put out 418 ish hp.

I'll try to find it.

EDIT: Found it Not much detail, but WOW!

r yes your right Longhair i read wrong!at 7500 rpm which is the lowest the triple is printed the two engines are within1 ftlb when reeds are added to triple.I would imagine the reeds have improved from 99 till 2012 when etec was built?Still no denying that when you look at triple it makes its peak tq lower(even though it is 6.5 ftlb less).However after modding triple you end up with 184 hp @8600 and 114.4 ftlbs @8300.Not to many twins at 800cc making that power?Trygstad 872 e-tec just hits 184?I wonder what a tried and true 925 cc etec triple would do?Bet it would be light years ahead of any twin banger!!Just as a note our 800cc triple that had most of these mods done but had smaller Jaws J1 pipes and a 151 2.5 track in a2000 zxchassis would run in the mtns with a etec and 154 track.The only thing we found with no dpm it would fall to different elevation changes and temp?Had this engine had dpm or etec tecnology it would have clearly beat them up even in a 13 year old chassis?

 

[Anvil1010]

We can confuse each other with all the facts we want. All I am going to add is that my brother still has a Formula III 600 that his wife rides. ANd it is THE best sounding sled in our group, bar none. My goodness that sled sounds awesome.

 

[DRD]

Would an 1150 Triple lay the smack down on an 1160 Twin?

 

[jpgmtech]

Two stroke VE and the resulting torque is dependant on a whole pile of factors, the least critical one being how many pistons are involved. I will stick with the light twins for now.

 

[barleyfarmer]

Still love the sound of a triple piped triple!I've owned a couple over the years(96 ultra,2000 xcr 800) and still have 99 mountain max 700 for the kids!They only really make power with triple pipes but you have to take the time to keep them tuned!Everybody can throw numbers around but it is different power,it comes on different and is peakier in a triple!My xcr was triple piped from factory and I long tracked it and it flat out hauled azz!It was 160 hp and my m1000 was around 170hp stock and I would say the cat pulled harder but that could be down to 9 years difference in chassis technology!Reich at specialty was getting those rotax triples working good and he did get them to fit in a rev chassis but were pricey!Also cat had the counter balancing shaft on zrt 800 triples and those engines were better than 15 lbs heavier than a zrt 600 triple!I talked to a polaris rep at a sled show when they discontinued their triple program and he said it was cheaper to build twins and anything bigger than 800 triples was expensive and because it was hard to keep them reliable when you got over 180 hp!He said their was after market companies out their for the few guys that wanted that kind of power.But I still chuckle when I remember watching some guys start a PSI 1500 triple at room temp!Pulling the rope looked like me starting mine at -40!!But once it started and took off a guy wasn't laughing anymore!Holy christ that thing went,I think it was around 300 hp,no turbo!!But it was over $15000 for the engine alone and that was 10 years ago!

 

[Modman]

I don't buy the 800 twin makes more tq!!if you look at Dyno charts the triple made peak tq at 7700??? Hmmmmmmm seems lower in rpm range? Also when they added vforce reeds the tq almost equals etec at lower rpm. I guess the twins aren't as torquey as one would think.**** 2012 ETEC 800 Dyno Results ***** - HCS Snowmobile Forums

LOL we get it, you are a fan of the triples......

But this is why you can't just use one number in the dyno graph and why I said you need to look at cumulative area under the torque curve and look at where it makes the power, not just how much. Here's the issues:

1) The dyno sheets for the stock 809 where not truly stock as they did add the triple pipes, the text indicates that stock on the FIII 800 was 132 HP. Reversing the calculation gives us 90 lb-ft of torque at 7700 RPM......16 lb-ft less than the twin....... But the Mach Z did come with triple pipes so for arguments sake we will use the baseline numbers with the triple pipes. Even with the triple pipes, the "stock" 809 still did not break 100 ft/lbs of torque. The stock 800 twin with single pipe makes over 92 lb-ft at everything above 7000 RPM , the stock 809 triple with single pipe doesn't make over 92 lb-ft.....ever.

For sake of comparison of similar numbers, Table 5 is about the closest set of values to the stock twin 800 numbers.

2) Can't compare peak HP from a dyno run. HP is a fake number. Take Table 5 for example: "1999 Rotax 800 Triple Dyno Port Pipes w/ Longer header, thick base gasket and machined head". The 809 triple made LESS torque than the stock 800 twin (104 lb-ft to 106 lb-ft). The triple looks like it is making more peak HP, but its only because it makes it at 8400 rpm. HP is simply about the math calculation.

3) If we take the peak torque from the twin and put it into the math equation for 8400 rpm like the triple - the stock 800 twin makes close to 170 HP.

4) Using 100 lb-ft as an arbitrary number - look at the 2 sets of numbers (stock 800 twin and Table 5 for the 809), one thing is apparent - the stock twin makes over 100 lb-ft for 1000 rpm, the improved triple makes over 100 lb-ft for 500 rpm. Area under the torque curve is double that for the twin. Easier to clutch, easier to ride.

5) It took an improved mod triple to make as much torque as a stock twin. Yes the tech is a little older on the 809, but this is triple/triple to a single piped twin. If you compare single pipe to single pipe, or if we added twin pipes to the 800 to make it a fair comparison, the difference would be a lot more.

bringing it back to the original topic - so let's say that with todays tech, the 809 would make comparable (or even slightly better power than the stock 800 twin). Why would the manufacturer produce a more expensive engine to do the same thing? Chassis issues aside - The 809 with etec would be considerably more expensive to produce and still be heavier.

etec injector = $380
cylinder = $1,005
cylinder head = $352
reed assembly = $140
intake = $96
throttle body = ($1,179 for the twin assembly - no price for a triple but conservatively assume 25% more) = $500

Easily another $300-500 in sensors, y-pipe, nuts and bolts, bearings etc. No machining costs either and no costs for the longer crank (probably $1000).

Roughly rounded, the triple would be $2500-$3000+ in retail parts alone, heavier, and more complex, for a motor that produces comparable power.

So...why don't triples exist anymore? LOL

 

[CUSO]

Good point Modman, Hard to argue with that.

 

[Longhairfreak]

Good point Modman, Hard to argue with that.

There was a few Rev 809s made. They must have been some of the finest mountain sleds ever built hey?

 

[CUSO]

A friend of mine had a 1404 triple in a Kingcat. Same thing as you mentioned about the starting.. He was a small guy and it took all his might to start that thing. That thing was a rocket. Didn't really handle that well, because it was a heavy pig. That sled sounded pretty awesome. I wonder what happened to that thing. Quite the relic now, thats for sure.

This was before people were really too avy aware and they just poked straight up a hill no matter what it looked like. LO

Still love the sound of a triple piped triple!I've owned a couple over the years(96 ultra,2000 xcr 800) and still have 99 mountain max 700 for the kids!They only really make power with triple pipes but you have to take the time to keep them tuned!Everybody can throw numbers around but it is different power,it comes on different and is peakier in a triple!My xcr was triple piped from factory and I long tracked it and it flat out hauled azz!It was 160 hp and my m1000 was around 170hp stock and I would say the cat pulled harder but that could be down to 9 years difference in chassis technology!Reich at specialty was getting those rotax triples working good and he did get them to fit in a rev chassis but were pricey!Also cat had the counter balancing shaft on zrt 800 triples and those engines were better than 15 lbs heavier than a zrt 600 triple!I talked to a polaris rep at a sled show when they discontinued their triple program and he said it was cheaper to build twins and anything bigger than 800 triples was expensive and because it was hard to keep them reliable when you got over 180 hp!He said their was after market companies out their for the few guys that wanted that kind of power.But I still chuckle when I remember watching some guys start a PSI 1500 triple at room temp!Pulling the rope looked like me starting mine at -40!!But once it started and took off a guy wasn't laughing anymore!Holy christ that thing went,I think it was around 300 hp,no turbo!!But it was over $15000 for the engine alone and that was 10 years ago!

 

[popcorn popper]

LOL we get it, you are a fan of the triples......

But this is why you can't just use one number in the dyno graph and why I said you need to look at cumulative area under the torque curve and look at where it makes the power, not just how much. Here's the issues:

1) The dyno sheets for the stock 809 where not truly stock as they did add the triple pipes, the text indicates that stock on the FIII 800 was 132 HP. Reversing the calculation gives us 90 lb-ft of torque at 7700 RPM......16 lb-ft less than the twin....... But the Mach Z did come with triple pipes so for arguments sake we will use the baseline numbers with the triple pipes. Even with the triple pipes, the "stock" 809 still did not break 100 ft/lbs of torque. The stock 800 twin with single pipe makes over 92 lb-ft at everything above 7000 RPM , the stock 809 triple with single pipe doesn't make over 92 lb-ft.....ever.

For sake of comparison of similar numbers, Table 5 is about the closest set of values to the stock twin 800 numbers.

2) Can't compare peak HP from a dyno run. HP is a fake number. Take Table 5 for example: "1999 Rotax 800 Triple Dyno Port Pipes w/ Longer header, thick base gasket and machined head". The 809 triple made LESS torque than the stock 800 twin (104 lb-ft to 106 lb-ft). The triple looks like it is making more peak HP, but its only because it makes it at 8400 rpm. HP is simply about the math calculation.

3) If we take the peak torque from the twin and put it into the math equation for 8400 rpm like the triple - the stock 800 twin makes close to 170 HP.

4) Using 100 lb-ft as an arbitrary number - look at the 2 sets of numbers (stock 800 twin and Table 5 for the 809), one thing is apparent - the stock twin makes over 100 lb-ft for 1000 rpm, the improved triple makes over 100 lb-ft for 500 rpm. Area under the torque curve is double that for the twin. Easier to clutch, easier to ride.

5) It took an improved mod triple to make as much torque as a stock twin. Yes the tech is a little older on the 809, but this is triple/triple to a single piped twin. If you compare single pipe to single pipe, or if we added twin pipes to the 800 to make it a fair comparison, the difference would be a lot more.

bringing it back to the original topic - so let's say that with todays tech, the 809 would make comparable (or even slightly better power than the stock 800 twin). Why would the manufacturer produce a more expensive engine to do the same thing? Chassis issues aside - The 809 with etec would be considerably more expensive to produce and still be heavier.

etec injector = $380
cylinder = $1,005
cylinder head = $352
reed assembly = $140
intake = $96
throttle body = ($1,179 for the twin assembly - no price for a triple but conservatively assume 25% more) = $500

Easily another $300-500 in sensors, y-pipe, nuts and bolts, bearings etc. No machining costs either and no costs for the longer crank (probably $1000).

Roughly rounded, the triple would be $2500-$3000+ in retail parts alone, heavier, and more complex, for a motor that produces comparable power.

So...why don't triples exist anymore? LOL

Modman if you don't beleive me why not get on the phone and ask some engine builders about it! Talk to Ralph at split second or to Greg at jaws or Dave trygstad and ask them to build you a pump gas 200 hundred hp twin! Then post on here what they say! I gonna bet they say you better find an extra jug cause your little popcorn popper not going to last! Dave trygstad told me himself he has not yet dynoed a etec that hit 160? Hmmmm what's up with that. The Dyno sheet I posted says they do? I heard another story from a guy who had his engine at Ralph's and it was way below 160 when first dynoed. Tom Motts will tell you the 1000 twins he dynoed stock 162is very good? Ask any of these guys how to get 200 realiable hp and all of them will say triple!i have asked them many times. As for cost it will be more thats a given but don't feed me suggested retail ? In know way it will cost brp that. Cc to cc there is no twin banger that will match the capability of a triple no way. The first 809 came out in 96 and the 800 r power tec just matched the power in 2006 or got close. I recently talked with a builder in California as he builds a 1070 809 based triple that makes 210 on pump gas. He uses his own cylinders and said that if you want realiable upper end. Hp then this is my only option other than 4-stroke turbo. Pm me i will give his no. I'm assuming you have a new 800 maybe have it dynoed my guess it will not be 161 like the books say. We dynoed a pump gas 925 triple afew years back at 189 at Tom Motts and both Tom and owner were disappointed it never hit over 190. Not even a well massaged 1000 twin hits that !

 

[Modman]

Modman if you don't beleive me why not get on the phone and ask some engine builders about it! Talk to Ralph at split second or to Greg at jaws or Dave trygstad and ask them to build you a pump gas 200 hundred hp twin!.............We dynoed a pump gas 925 triple afew years back at 189 at Tom Motts and both Tom and owner were disappointed it never hit over 190. Not even a well massaged 1000 twin hits that !

well don't take it personally LMAO......I may have talked to A LOT of engine builders over the years and may have even built a motor or two but that's besides the point. So what you're saying is that a massaged 1000 cc twin can't hit 200 HP? You might want to call around some more....LMAO

M1000 Trail Port/D&D Power Single Pipe Dyno Test D & D POWER SPORTS LLC LOWVILLE, NY (315) 376-8013

And no one can build me a stout 200 HP twin? better not look at the 1200 specs then...LOL

I don't own an 800, you'll have to keep going in the displacement category.....

If triples are the way to go, why did all 4 manufacturers stop making them?

I'm out, you're starting to get too worked up over an engine that is no longer in production....

 

[popcorn popper]

well don't take it personally LMAO......I may have talked to A LOT of engine builders over the years and may have even built a motor or two but that's besides the point. So what you're saying is that a massaged 1000 cc twin can't hit 200 HP? You might want to call around some more....LMAO

M1000 Trail Port/D&D Power Single Pipe Dyno Test D & D POWER SPORTS LLC LOWVILLE, NY (315) 376-8013

And no one can build me a stout 200 HP twin? better not look at the 1200 specs then...LOL

I don't own an 800, you'll have to keep going in the displacement category.....

If triples are the way to go, why did all 4 manufacturers stop making them?

I'm out, you're starting to get too worked up over an engine that is no longer in production....

Ah d&d! I was wondering when the beloved cat would come out! They can crank 205 but realiability not! Oh right all two manufacturers quit making big twins to ( the other two were not stupid enough to build one)unless youcount polaris's attempt at 900? wow!While your talking to your friends at d&d maybe ask them about their old t-cats? Blow that twin right off the Dyno with their 1000 triple. If I remember correctly the had some over 1300 cc .just seen a 1000 cc t-cat with all engine work done by d&d for improved stock forsale with Dyno sheets that made 240 in safe tune 260 cranked up??. The triple is out because every one thought they wanted a light weight twin. Ha! As for me yes I get worked up cause I don't beleive everyone knows what the triple is about. If the manufacturers had done a better job with weight and spent the years developing these engines they would be light years ahead now. The twins are shining now cause of light chassis and years of r&d but every once in awhile a triple in heavy old chassis will hand them their ***!And I'm not out!

 

[CUSO]

I have an old 779 motor with carbs in my garage, I was gonna throw it in an old zx or a dragon roller for a fun project. It needs an overbore, since it was slightly squeaked in the middle cylinder. Old school sleeves I believe. It runs, but needs a couple of things...

Anyone have a donor sled they can donate? LOL