Stock nytro vs sidewinder

[Turblue]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

Yeah I seen that one....too bad it doesn’t have the narrow front end . Good deal.

 

[jrusher]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

I agree 100% on the sidewinder being the best riding 4 stroke to date ......the main reason I was leaning towards a nytro or viper was if I don’t get out a bunch this year and it sits ...oh well...there’s nothing more I hate than walking past a sled and not using it. Figure just pick up something cheap. See how the winter goes and maybe pickup a sidewinder next year.

Also there’s isn’t an abundance of sidewinder choices. They seem to be a hot commodity lately.

I like a project...especially taking something used and making it the best it can be. Satisfying

Suspension set up is huge on these thumpers. I have my skid up in the upper holes front and rear so as it sits flatter and isn't jacked up high in the ass end adding weight to the front end . A z broz front shock spring and a properly sprung rear shock are huge benefits as well with weight transfer. I talked with neil quite abit and baker when i built my viper and tried lots of their suspension tips. I have the narrow 36 inch front end and got rid of the tri-pod steering post along with some raptor coil over front shocks and the sled handles and gets up on top of the snow really well. The racers edge/baker rear arm is a must in my mind the thing will lock out on a steep climb and is still playful everywhere else. Ive had his rear arm or skid on all my yammies and work like intended . I rode a buddies sidewinder last season and they are very close as far as they way they feel and handle. The winder does hide the weight abit better. Engine wise you cant go wrong with the old triple with a good turbo kit and water/air intercooler. Id stay away from the 16 engines as I think they put weaker rods in them

 

[8000 ProClimb]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

Here is what I have found comparing the 4 strokes (My Winder) to the 2 strokes. If you set up the suspension right (for your weight) meaning just enough air in the ski shocks to handle the bumps for your riding style that will greatly improve carving and sidehilling (I also have my shocks revalves softer than stock). Then air up your front skid shock as much as you can so that it still has good trail manners (This takes weight off the skis making the front end lighter and carves and sidehills easier) I also revalved this shock softer so it doesn't buck when you do hit firmer snow. Then run the back skid shock as soft as possible so that you do bottom it once in a while when you take a big hit. (This also helps take weight off the front end) I also revalved this shock softer and this makes it easier to carve and sidehill. I also drop out the front skid to give a steeper angle of attack and take more weight off the front end. (I know people will say shallower is better in the powder, NOT in my opinion and testing since the mid 80's and on every brand) been doing this since my 488 Trail Indy with a 141 and 2" homemade plastic paddles. Now in my case I also have the elevate kit and that makes it ALL work even better, then as a Bonus I also have the rear lock out shock for when I really do want the front to stay down.Then get rid of the stock skis that are grabby/twitchy and put on good quality ones, makes a world of difference in ALL conditions.

That being said this sled doesn't handle ANYTHING like ANY 4 stroke I have rid'n and I have rode sh@t loads........... Its not alot different than my 18' Cat. My son has a 18 Cat with the same skis as me and a can and we weighed the sleds the same day with bathroom scales the same way and my sled is 65Lbs heavier. To pull them over in the garage mine is just slightly harder to do than his and my 14 year old grand daughter can pull my Winder over. The sled is still heavier than the Cat but set up right hides the weight very well.

I could spend more money/time and lose more weight but I don't feel the need. If there was one area I would love to improve is the instant on throttle response of a well set up 2 stroke. To help my Winder out I built a Boost Spiker (Ran them on ALL my Turbo'd sleds). Where your hose from your Turbo snail pressure side is to your boost actuator, "T" it and add a hose or can/bottle so that when the turbo spools it has to fill that volume before sending the pressure to the boost controller. This makes the turbo waste gate stay closed longer when you hit the throttle, spooling the turbo up faster and making it spike 2-3Lbs over the preset boost just for a second. This gives a harder, quicker hit every time you let off and hit the throttle again. It helps with lag, (and ALL 4 stroke turbo's have it) but still is no well set up 2 stroke for throttle response.

 

[Quicksand]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

Here is what I have found comparing the 4 strokes (My Winder) to the 2 strokes. If you set up the suspension right (for your weight) meaning just enough air in the ski shocks to handle the bumps for your riding style that will greatly improve carving and sidehilling (I also have my shocks revalves softer than stock). Then air up your front skid shock as much as you can so that it still has good trail manners (This takes weight off the skis making the front end lighter and carves and sidehills easier) I also revalved this shock softer so it doesn't buck when you do hit firmer snow. Then run the back skid shock as soft as possible so that you do bottom it once in a while when you take a big hit. (This also helps take weight off the front end) I also revalved this shock softer and this makes it easier to carve and sidehill. I also drop out the front skid to give a steeper angle of attack and take more weight off the front end. (I know people will say shallower is better in the powder, NOT in my opinion and testing since the mid 80's and on every brand) been doing this since my 488 Trail Indy with a 141 and 2" homemade plastic paddles. Now in my case I also have the elevate kit and that makes it ALL work even better, then as a Bonus I also have the rear lock out shock for when I really do want the front to stay down.Then get rid of the stock skis that are grabby/twitchy and put on good quality ones, makes a world of difference in ALL conditions.

That being said this sled doesn't handle ANYTHING like ANY 4 stroke I have rid'n and I have rode sh@t loads........... Its not alot different than my 18' Cat. My son has a 18 Cat with the same skis as me and a can and we weighed the sleds the same day with bathroom scales the same way and my sled is 65Lbs heavier. To pull them over in the garage mine is just slightly harder to do than his and my 14 year old grand daughter can pull my Winder over. The sled is still heavier than the Cat but set up right hides the weight very well.

I could spend more money/time and lose more weight but I don't feel the need. If there was one area I would love to improve is the instant on throttle response of a well set up 2 stroke. To help my Winder out I built a Boost Spiker (Ran them on ALL my Turbo'd sleds). Where your hose from your Turbo snail pressure side is to your boost actuator, "T" it and add a hose or can/bottle so that when the turbo spools it has to fill that volume before sending the pressure to the boost controller. This makes the turbo waste gate stay closed longer when you hit the throttle, spooling the turbo up faster and making it spike 2-3Lbs over the preset boost just for a second. This gives a harder, quicker hit every time you let off and hit the throttle again. It helps with lag, (and ALL 4 stroke turbo's have it) but still is no well set up 2 stroke

Please correct me if I'm missing something here but, Wouldn't that just make lag time longer as it's got more volume to fill to build boost? pressure in the bottle would be the equal to the pressure on the wastegate no? Would still have to build pressure in the bottle at the same rate as the rest of the system no? I don't see why the boost would spike any higher than normal. Seems counter productive in my head.
Sorry to derail the thread

 

[Pistonbroke]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

Ok things are too quiet here. Lol. I’m having a dilemma on my sledding future. So I’ve had recently sold my 174 sidewinder....that was the funnest Yamaha sled to date. Sold this cause the type of riding we do lately the 174 was to much sled(wish I would of left it 162)...the revy days just don’t happen anymore.


My question for the guys that went from a nytro to a sidewinder....is this crazy talk that I want to buy a nytro? Lol. What are the must haves to make the handling the best? I did have a nytro for a short term but didn’t care for the rear skid...it handled like sh#t.. hard to ride i felt. I’m not looking for a mod sled, stock or 180 kit.

I guess I could add even a viper to this mix.

If I was in your sled boots, these would be my nytro must-haves. I've done the Apex-TApex-T-nytro-Sidewinder evolution myself, with thousands of kms on each unit.

-Gotta be at least an MCX 190 kit to keep you smiling given your history. The 190 kit with its higher compression ratio reacts more like a 'Winder in power delivery, and is only a little bit behind on bigger pulls
-Front end setup, forward + narrower. Skinz, Zbros, whatever you can find.
-Skid: hopefully find a unit out there with a decent set of coilovers in the back. Honestly would steer clear of the Baker setup as I think it's a fun sucker in the trees etc.

After this it's down to ergonomics: bar height, running boards, all that good stuff.

Nytros are easy to buy and hard to sell these days, so you may consider that it may may stay with you as a backup sled or whatever in the next couple seasons.

Hope you find a good one!

 

[8000 ProClimb]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

Hi Quicksand, the hose that goes from the turbo pressure snail to the waste gate controller opens the wastegate on the turbo. So normally at idle say, the waste gate is closed by the spring in the controller. As boost builds, the pressure in that little hose starts putting pressure on the controller, which in turn start opening the waste gate, when the desired set boost level is reached the waste gate flutters to maintain set boost pressure. When you install a boost spiker, it takes a bit longer for pressure to build on the controller because it needs more air volume to fill that line so you get a spike in boost set pressure. It also takes a bit longer to start opening the controller which makes the waste gate stay closed longer, building boost faster. This all happens VERY quickly but it does help with a bit better throttle response. The other thing that helps this is to have your clutching slightly over spike the desired set Rpm and fall back to the desired Rpm (Clutching 101) This also helps the turbo spool and give better throttle response. This is a must do on 2 strokes as they do not make torque at low Rpm. Another mistake some people do is thinking that because they have lots of power they need BIG HEAVY weights. This too kills throttle response from rotating mass. Having lighter, more aggressive weights with a lighter spring controls the power and spools Rpm faster.

Side note, Skidoos factory turbo works the opposite, the waste gate is open normally and the air box so the motor see very little/no boost at the beginning and the motor revs up like a normally asperated 2 stroke then with load and altitude the waste gate closes (Flutters) to maintain the power. (Pretty smart set up)

 

[Bnorth]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

Hi Quicksand, the hose that goes from the turbo pressure snail to the waste gate controller opens the wastegate on the turbo. So normally at idle say, the waste gate is closed by the spring in the controller. As boost builds, the pressure in that little hose starts putting pressure on the controller, which in turn start opening the waste gate, when the desired set boost level is reached the waste gate flutters to maintain set boost pressure. When you install a boost spiker, it takes a bit longer for pressure to build on the controller because it needs more air volume to fill that line so you get a spike in boost set pressure. It also takes a bit longer to start opening the controller which makes the waste gate stay closed longer, building boost faster. This all happens VERY quickly but it does help with a bit better throttle response. The other thing that helps this is to have your clutching slightly over spike the desired set Rpm and fall back to the desired Rpm (Clutching 101) This also helps the turbo spool and give better throttle response. This is a must do on 2 strokes as they do not make torque at low Rpm. Another mistake some people do is thinking that because they have lots of power they need BIG HEAVY weights. This too kills throttle response from rotating mass. Having lighter, more aggressive weights with a lighter spring controls the power and spools Rpm faster.

Side note, Skidoos factory turbo works the opposite, the waste gate is open normally and the air box so the motor see very little/no boost at the beginning and the motor revs up like a normally asperated 2 stroke then with load and altitude the waste gate closes (Flutters) to maintain the power. (Pretty smart set up)

You can also accomplish this with electronic boost control. The Mac valve won't open to the WG until it reads full boost so no creeping the WG open it slams open.

 

[8000 ProClimb]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

Yes that would be the BEST way to control boost (Electric, programable waste gate) but I'm old school and semi retired on a budget.............

 

[canuck5]

Re: Stock nytro vs viper vs sidewinder

I agree 100% on the sidewinder being the best riding 4 stroke to date ......the main reason I was leaning towards a nytro or viper was if I don’t get out a bunch this year and it sits ...oh well...there’s nothing more I hate than walking past a sled and not using it. Figure just pick up something cheap. See how the winter goes and maybe pickup a sidewinder next year.

Also there’s isn’t an abundance of sidewinder choices. They seem to be a hot commodity lately.

I like a project...especially taking something used and making it the best it can be. Satisfying

If it’s a money depreciation thing go with that 270mcx viper for $7000 you can only loose so much on that thing and nothing works better than mcx gear.