Thats dry weight though. Some guys here are talking dry, some are talking wet. Others are saying with a Jerry can and 300lbs bubba riding, plus packing 36 beers haha
400lbs wet, is going to be a pricey sled probably.
Power to weight ratio or just power?
- Thread starter Teth-Air
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Thats dry weight though. Some guys here are talking dry, some are talking wet. Others are saying with a Jerry can and 300lbs bubba riding, plus packing 36 beers haha
400lbs wet, is going to be a pricey sled probably.
Lund
Active VIP Member
I went through this entire thread and its an interesting conversation but somewhat misleading and misunderstood.
First off, how can one compare a 4stroke(SW) in this conversation, you cannot, it a whole different animal and does not belong in this conversation or does it?
Here is the problem, there is no mention of "TORQUE", unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective torque is the key ingredient for turning big tracks at elevation and not so much HP. But sales promoting and peeps excited about the newest and greatest quickly loose some vision on what's real.
You can have 2 engine with the same displacement and hp output but with different bore and stroke. The engine with the bigger(longer) stroke will always produce bigger torque number's through out its entire range, though both might make the same torque numbers at peak.
Turbo or not that does not change the longer stroke makes more usable torque. More torque always wins in the mountains.
Another phenomena missed is the more torque produced by a motor the more difficult it is to handle, thus a high torque motor will require more strength and skill to make it work and won't be as "flickable" and chassis design plays a huge role here.
I ride all season with turbos of all makes and weights, non are 165hp but all well over the 200hp mark and I can tell you with 100% certainty that torque is key and the rest is nothing more then BS jargon for those trying to promote something that isn't as relevant as being made when it comes to HP vs weight ratio's.
Hats off to BRP for the first factory 2stroke turbo, even with the extra weight.
BTW, FYI, it is and still is, dudes with 2stroke turbo's still look at 4stroke (SW) as their set mark to match or beat in steep and deep day's. Most all can't because of "TORQUE".
First off, how can one compare a 4stroke(SW) in this conversation, you cannot, it a whole different animal and does not belong in this conversation or does it?
Here is the problem, there is no mention of "TORQUE", unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective torque is the key ingredient for turning big tracks at elevation and not so much HP. But sales promoting and peeps excited about the newest and greatest quickly loose some vision on what's real.
You can have 2 engine with the same displacement and hp output but with different bore and stroke. The engine with the bigger(longer) stroke will always produce bigger torque number's through out its entire range, though both might make the same torque numbers at peak.
Turbo or not that does not change the longer stroke makes more usable torque. More torque always wins in the mountains.
Another phenomena missed is the more torque produced by a motor the more difficult it is to handle, thus a high torque motor will require more strength and skill to make it work and won't be as "flickable" and chassis design plays a huge role here.
I ride all season with turbos of all makes and weights, non are 165hp but all well over the 200hp mark and I can tell you with 100% certainty that torque is key and the rest is nothing more then BS jargon for those trying to promote something that isn't as relevant as being made when it comes to HP vs weight ratio's.
Hats off to BRP for the first factory 2stroke turbo, even with the extra weight.
BTW, FYI, it is and still is, dudes with 2stroke turbo's still look at 4stroke (SW) as their set mark to match or beat in steep and deep day's. Most all can't because of "TORQUE".
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canuck5
Active VIP Member
The problem with your Torque theory is those big sidewinders do not float in the ultra deep the 3.5 to 4+ feet days. So you have to overcome 108lbs extra weight and the drag of it acting like a mastercraft with full ballast compared to a ski boat up on plain. I found my Apex and Nytro made so much trackspeed it didn’t matter my sidewinder not so much. Now throw a 174 on and a mcxpress true 270kit on at elevation and it’s not even close. Today’s bone stock 800’s work so well it amazes me. Will the sidewinder beat those on a hill climb yep every time but throw a ho turbo on that two stroke and it’s not even close.
Lund
Active VIP Member
Maybe I didn't explain my point very well, but it had nothing to do with the SW. Your either missing the point or I didn't explain it good enough, thought I did though.
canuck5
Active VIP Member
Lund
Active VIP Member
Ah I see. you can swing it which ever way you wish but that is just an example of torque, it doesn't have to be a SW or a Viper or any 4stroke.
Don't forget I own and ride a Cat too...LOL
06yamahaapex
Active VIP Member
canuck5 your sidewinder must have been the dud of the group ? My 2020 hardcore doesn’t even come close in the deep stuff as my old sidewinder did. To the point where I am buying another sidewinder and installing an alpha kit. Maybe your clutching was junk???
Longhairfreak
Active VIP Member
I have an M8 turbo running 7 lbs of boost and it is for sale. Why because my 1160 Wedge is way more fun to ride because of lighter weight and more torque.
deaner
Active VIP Member
Not a very good frame of reference.....an m8 running 7lbs of boost is still a giant turd
canuck5
Active VIP Member
This whole thread is power to weight ratio. My sidewinder ripped but it’s advantage became nullified in the ultra deep snow what I’m saying is they float like a lead ballon in the deep. I even provided solutions to this problem longer track or more track speed. After spending 13 years on 4 strokes it’s the first time I experienced it where a non turbo 800 was able to move around just as well as the winders I’m used to laughing as you take the steepest line and they run out of steam 1/4 way up the hill, and a buddy of mine just dumped his this year for the same reason. Clearly there were clutching efficiencies to be had and the drop and roll 2018 + helped but putting almost 3000km on one isn’t exactly dipping your toe in the water I’m simply stating real work experiences.
skegpro
Active VIP Member
I agree^
Had a king cat.dumped it.
Thing was a rocked ship once you had its legs stretched out.
Was a pig to handle, and when it got ultra deep to the point where it was tough to get moving my mountain cat got up on the snow better than any sled I have ever ridden.
Had a king cat.dumped it.
Thing was a rocked ship once you had its legs stretched out.
Was a pig to handle, and when it got ultra deep to the point where it was tough to get moving my mountain cat got up on the snow better than any sled I have ever ridden.
Lunch_Box
Active VIP Member
You can easily loose 30lbs off the front end of the Sidewinder for fairly cheap, while its still heavier than the 2 strokes it does make a difference and help. A turbo 2 stroke would be nice, but the reliability issue just turns me away.
Lund
Active VIP Member
I'm sorry to hear your sled was a bit of a tank, but honestly its all about setup and I run into this regularly and posted on here multiple times on different threads. But this is internet.
The hard arses I ride with are all turboed, 2 of them on Vipers and non have issues your describing, neither do i. In fact there are 2 T3's with blowers in this entourage and those sleds feel like lead bricks in comparison.
Your correct the Winder is heavier then other sleds but it CAN carry its weight on its skid extremely well making nose end dives nearly gone as you describe it.
My experience is, I find little difference in how it floats from my Cat or any other 2strokes if you know how to setup. Yes the Cat is much lighter and my preference when I hookup with my bark busting friends in the timber or when the snow is skinny hard. But that is where it ends.
Better luck next time buddy.
BTW the proper title should be HPvsTORQUEvsWEIGHT for these kind of thread. There is a reason why the triple cylinder engine went the way of the Doe Doe for mountain sleds especially and its all related to this.
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Vote is still for lighter vs more hp / torque if either or deal.
Have 1 4s left in the garage - expedition xu for cabin runs ...all other 4s sleds are gone.
Not buying another new sled until weight is greatly reduced or handling is greatly improved over current crop ....not seeing this yet. Better to buy 1 year old depreciated sled with no tax and add a couple of basic upgrades as needed and save cash for other fun
Have 1 4s left in the garage - expedition xu for cabin runs ...all other 4s sleds are gone.
Not buying another new sled until weight is greatly reduced or handling is greatly improved over current crop ....not seeing this yet. Better to buy 1 year old depreciated sled with no tax and add a couple of basic upgrades as needed and save cash for other fun
fredw
Active VIP Member
Having a 500lb full of fuel sled and another 550 lbs, there is a difference that is quickly defined on energy intake involved..
hp/weight still works best on lightest sled, but there is lots of variables from riding style, rider ability, and your budget, having the lightest sled, but not reliable is not a good selling point..
titanium is light 30percent over steel, but not as strong, and not cheap$$, carbon fiber even more $$ and not as strong, all comes down to what your after, reliability is king hands down
200hp light sled with big footprint, and good skid, reliable to me is king..
hp/weight still works best on lightest sled, but there is lots of variables from riding style, rider ability, and your budget, having the lightest sled, but not reliable is not a good selling point..
titanium is light 30percent over steel, but not as strong, and not cheap$$, carbon fiber even more $$ and not as strong, all comes down to what your after, reliability is king hands down
200hp light sled with big footprint, and good skid, reliable to me is king..
maxwell
Active VIP Member
couple observations after the weekend,
1. why does the seemingly lighter pro handle like its heavier? If its 50lbs lighter you certainly cant feel it
2. The polaris has for sure exceeded the reliability vs weight ratio. New Khaos couldn't handle the trail out, Upper A frame let go in the rear skid, both sides broke clean off. Absolutely no meat on those bones its quite scary. If you ride hard the polaris will fall apart
1. why does the seemingly lighter pro handle like its heavier? If its 50lbs lighter you certainly cant feel it
2. The polaris has for sure exceeded the reliability vs weight ratio. New Khaos couldn't handle the trail out, Upper A frame let go in the rear skid, both sides broke clean off. Absolutely no meat on those bones its quite scary. If you ride hard the polaris will fall apart
GreyGhost
Active VIP Member
I kind of disagree with carbon and titanium being weaker. Unless the carbon fibre part was not manufactured correctly and has lots of excessive amount of resin build up, the car I will more than keep up to steel in the strength department. I agree, having a sled that falls apart in your hands is definitely not a great selling feature but obviously Polaris has things figured out.......
GreyGhost
Active VIP Member
I know the newer axys have changed but the last time I rode one it felt a lot more nimble then my Gen4 and I’m a small guy
fredw
Active VIP Member
carbon and ti are strong for most part, but it always seams I have cracks appearing on my ti skids.. not sure if cold and shock load are its enemy, still dialing that in, my carbon chaise over the years has needed a few supports and it's hard finding guys doing repairs when it's time.. it's strength is actually stronger than I had though, but others have had some issues.. don't baby mine and It's been rolled down a few shoots for sure..
yeah id never buy ti arms. seen then shear off too many times.
think it's because they build them to thin.
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