Power to weight ratio or just power?

[maxwell]

mawell where are you spending all this time riding at 8000ft around here? you seem to be gaining elevation constantly here when most of us typically ride in the 5-6500 ft range your turbo 850 slowly becomes less relevant. hell i might as well just ride my sidewinder....

Valemount, Most of my riding is 7500-8500ft. When we dip low in the trees yes more around 6500-7500. But thats still +25hp. Wouldnt say you are less relevant, thats significant. Unless your below 3000ft Your getting noticable gains from the 850T

 

[maxwell]

I think you will like it Dan. My 19 is the beat sled Ive owned, yes its also not stock but my 09 mod had that title till now. Im very pleased with my 19. 850 miles, no belts blown and it works very well.
I rode maxwells turbo And I did not notice this extra weight enough to bother me, I also run the stock can on my 19 so the turbo weight is very minimal IMO.
The turbo is the icing on the cake, yes the turbo 850 dos make boost.

Im not noticing the extra weight either, Although i dont have a 2020 expert, Coming off any other skidoo machine i do not notice it one bit. I think with it being so centalized this helps. If it was mounted like an aftermarket kit and having the stock exhaust the sled would be very un balanced.

 

[maxwell]

IMO a lighter sled/lighter rider uses up less hp. Like mentioned above some of us don’t want to go on a diet or want to spend to get the sled on a diet. You need a balance of everything; light, power, strength, and manoeuvrability. Polaris is really innovative when it comes to trying to lighten up things but falls short on the quality department. Cat is really good at making sure that everything is top quality and is reliable. SkiDoo is right in the middle, good quality and light.

Exactly, weight does matter. Which is why i laugh seing all these snowmobile comparisons. Unless its the same rider your sled can be a completely different machine. Take a poke at a hill with a 14L jerry can on, take it off and repeat. Its amazing what 20lbs will do to a machine.

 

[Lunch_Box]

to the original question,

If Polaris and Arctic cat take the 400lb sled route to acheive the same power to weight ratio then why wouldnt they turbo that machine and take the market? The Skidoo turbo didnt add much weight, skidoo now has a turbo platform to reduce weight from.

Ive never rode a 400lb machine so i cant tell you if i would take that or the 850T, but i do know that having the extra 40hp at 8000ft makes the 550lb machine feel extremely light. The sleds are all so close in weight right now with the current choices the power to weight ratio is way futher ahead with the turbo skidoo.

Like mentioned above, the costs would be astronomical to build a 400lb sled, i think its coming though, You can build a Full carbon fibre XM800 that is 410lbs. right now thats an 60k Build and far from what we would consider a durable machine.

I bet they could mass produce it enough to keep it in the turbo skidoo price range to make it feasible. But by the time that happens, skidoo will have a Turbo version so after riding this 850T machine, My choice will always be the turbo if they can always maintain the higher Power to weight ratio. If thats a 400lb sled vs a 450lb sled i dont care, so long as the power to weight ratio is higher im on it, unless its a yamaha.

There are other factors to consider here, the skidoo right now has a fairly bulletproof setup. I watch my CAT friends bending tunnels like they going out of style, i watch my polaris and cat friends overheating like cooling capacity was an afterthought from engineering. At what point do you sacrifice drive ability and durability for weight?

So power to weight is only impressive if it comes from a SkiDoo? Adding 50lbs to your Doo and getting into Sidewinder territory but with 250+ HP but according to you at this point power to weight no longer matters cause the Yamaha is to heavy?

 

[GreyGhost]

Exactly, weight does matter. Which is why i laugh seing all these snowmobile comparisons. Unless its the same rider your sled can be a completely different machine. Take a poke at a hill with a 14L jerry can on, take it off and repeat. Its amazing what 20lbs will do to a machine.

I couldn’t agree more, you can’t compare apples to oranges..........

 

[GreyGhost]

So power to weight is only impressive if it comes from a SkiDoo? Adding 50lbs to your Doo and getting into Sidewinder territory but with 250+ HP but according to you at this point power to weight no longer matters cause the Yamaha is to heavy?

That makes no sense haha. A 850 renegade 129” weighs about 480 and a Yamaha sidewinder 129” weighs about 580. Not even a comparison. Maybe if you compare a renegade 900 ace.

 

[Lunch_Box]

That makes no sense haha. A 850 renegade 129” weighs about 480 and a Yamaha sidewinder 129” weighs about 580. Not even a comparison. Maybe if you compare a renegade 900 ace.

A 162'' sidewinder with some light weight parts is around the 600lb range, maxwell just posted that the turbo Doo is 550lbs, whats the hard part to understand?

 

[maxwell]

A 162'' sidewinder with some light weight parts is around the 600lb range, maxwell just posted that the turbo Doo is 550lbs, whats the hard part to understand?

Not sure where your getting your data from. but on the previous page there is real world Weights posted. 165 Skidoo X - 546Lb. Sidewinder 654 Lbs. Thats 108Lbs difference, Now add 10Lbs for the skidoo turbo your still 98lbs apart. Not sure where your going to lose 50 lbs to get the sidewinder down to 600? even if you do lets say, your still 50 lbs apart, 600lbs is NOT 550lbs. Ive rode a few sidewinders, No matter how much power they make they are still far too heavy, I should have said that there is a Line where weight and power cross that it becomes not interesting for the majority of riders. maybe that line is 550 Lbs? im not sure, but a sidewinder with 250hp and 600+lbs is of absolutely no interest to me, and the majority of mountain riders or else they would still be making sidewinder MTX. And who knows, maybe its just a poorly designed chassis because the front end is FAR too heavy, maybe a 600lb sidewinder in a new chassis that moves the weight back or rider forward to make it not so front end heavy would make the sled more interesting or appealing. But for most of us. 550 well balanced lbs and 165hp is the ticket.

There are other issues with the sidewinders aswell, that big 4 stroke engine is not nearly as responsive as the new DI 850 engines.

so to clarify what i said earlier about the skidoo feeling lighter because it has more power, that does not apply to a yamaha sidewinder. LOL. Maybe if it wasnt in a 12 year old chassis that 600+lbs wouldnt be as noticable

 

[dragonweld28]

The next round of testing will be very interesting. The Doo 850 T 165 is 468 lbs dry + 57.69lbs for fuel, for a rough total of 525.69. Divide this by 165hp up to 8000' gives you a 3.186 lbs/hp rating

My Polaris 850....... on paper makes 167 hp plus 9hp with a flash and 6-8hp with the head, for a total of 182-184hp. The sled weighs 420lbs dry + 69.84lbs for fuel. My titanium muffler weighs 3.6 pounds, saving 13.4lbs giving a total of 476.44 lbs. 182hp looses 21% at 7000' putting that at 151-153 hp. This gives a 3.11lb/hp.

i know this is all just on paper. But a well clutched Mod polaris 850 should beat a bone stock skidoo 850 T. Lol. Let the arguments begin......

 

[Lunch_Box]

Not sure where your getting your data from. but on the previous page there is real world Weights posted. 165 Skidoo X - 546Lb. Sidewinder 654 Lbs. Thats 108Lbs difference, Now add 10Lbs for the skidoo turbo your still 98lbs apart. Not sure where your going to lose 50 lbs to get the sidewinder down to 600? even if you do lets say, your still 50 lbs apart, 600lbs is NOT 550lbs. Ive rode a few sidewinders, No matter how much power they make they are still far too heavy, I should have said that there is a Line where weight and power cross that it becomes not interesting for the majority of riders. maybe that line is 550 Lbs? im not sure, but a sidewinder with 250hp and 600+lbs is of absolutely no interest to me, and the majority of mountain riders or else they would still be making sidewinder MTX. And who knows, maybe its just a poorly designed chassis because the front end is FAR too heavy, maybe a 600lb sidewinder in a new chassis that moves the weight back or rider forward to make it not so front end heavy would make the sled more interesting or appealing. But for most of us. 550 well balanced lbs and 165hp is the ticket.

There are other issues with the sidewinders aswell, that big 4 stroke engine is not nearly as responsive as the new DI 850 engines.

so to clarify what i said earlier about the skidoo feeling lighter because it has more power, that does not apply to a yamaha sidewinder. LOL. Maybe if it wasnt in a 12 year old chassis that 600+lbs wouldnt be as noticable

Exhaust, light weight battery and hood and you're not far off the 600lb mark. My whole point was your comment that the added power of the turbo Doo makes up for the weight and you don't notice it. So I was wondering what this weight limit was cause the power of the Sidewinder sure out does the Doo. But now we know, 550lbs is the limit that a mountain sled can be.

 

[Pistonbroke]

So power to weight is only impressive if it comes from a SkiDoo? Adding 50lbs to your Doo and getting into Sidewinder territory but with 250+ HP but according to you at this point power to weight no longer matters cause the Yamaha is to heavy?

LOL, yep.... welcome to Ski-Doo and Mud.com!

 

[maxwell]

Exhaust, light weight battery and hood and you're not far off the 600lb mark. My whole point was your comment that the added power of the turbo Doo makes up for the weight and you don't notice it. So I was wondering what this weight limit was cause the power of the Sidewinder sure out does the Doo. But now we know, 550lbs is the limit that a mountain sled can be.

I dont know what that limit is, Im pretty sure its more chassis orientated than gross weight oriented. Even if the sidewinder was 550lbs and 200hp the position of the engine and rider is a problem

 

[maxwell]

The next round of testing will be very interesting. The Doo 850 T 165 is 468 lbs dry + 57.69lbs for fuel, for a rough total of 525.69. Divide this by 165hp up to 8000' gives you a 3.186 lbs/hp rating

My Polaris 850....... on paper makes 167 hp plus 9hp with a flash and 6-8hp with the head, for a total of 182-184hp. The sled weighs 420lbs dry + 69.84lbs for fuel. My titanium muffler weighs 3.6 pounds, saving 13.4lbs giving a total of 476.44 lbs. 182hp looses 21% at 7000' putting that at 151-153 hp. This gives a 3.11lb/hp.

i know this is all just on paper. But a well clutched Mod polaris 850 should beat a bone stock skidoo 850 T. Lol. Let the arguments begin......

Paper always translates to the snow. hahaha

 

[GreyGhost]

A 162'' sidewinder with some light weight parts is around the 600lb range, maxwell just posted that the turbo Doo is 550lbs, whats the hard part to understand?

I think we’re all talking about different things here. So let’s say a Yamaha 162” is 640lbs and the turbo doo 165” is 550lbs. The doo is still has a better weight to power ratio. 640lbs : 200hp = 3.2lbs : per 1hp, 550lbs : 165hp = 3.3lbs : per 1hp. Plus like maxwell said the Yamaha has a less then desirable rider positioning vs a doo or poo. Plus you can only cut so much weight on either sled so starting off lighter definitely helps!!

 

[Lunch_Box]

I think we’re all talking about different things here. So let’s say a Yamaha 162” is 640lbs and the turbo doo 165” is 550lbs. The doo is still has a better weight to power ratio. 640lbs : 200hp = 3.2lbs : per 1hp, 550lbs : 165hp = 3.3lbs : per 1hp. Plus like maxwell said the Yamaha has a less then desirable rider positioning vs a doo or poo. Plus you can only cut so much weight on either sled so starting off lighter definitely helps!!

Rider position is a personal preference, haven't rode a Doo or Poo so can't comment. I agree starting off lighter does help, but being able to reliably crank 250+ hp out of the Sidewinder on 91 octane is pretty nice. And with less than a grand (battery, exhaust and hood) you can get that 640 down to 600. I know the Sidewinder isn't for everyone, but its not so out to lunch as everyone seems to think.

 

[GreyGhost]

Rider position is a personal preference, haven't rode a Doo or Poo so can't comment. I agree starting off lighter does help, but being able to reliably crank 250+ hp out of the Sidewinder on 91 octane is pretty nice. And with less than a grand (battery, exhaust and hood) you can get that 640 down to 600. I know the Sidewinder isn't for everyone, but its not so out to lunch as everyone seems to think.

Not really a preference anymore. When doo has a more forward rider position it definitely help move the machine around. Yes you can definitely get that thing to weigh close to a two stroke but how much money do you want to spend. I’ve more than once almost bought a turbo yammy purely to listen to that sweet sweet turbo four stroke haha.

 

[Teth-Air]

The next round of testing will be very interesting. The Doo 850 T 165 is 468 lbs dry + 57.69lbs for fuel, for a rough total of 525.69. Divide this by 165hp up to 8000' gives you a 3.186 lbs/hp rating

My Polaris 850....... on paper makes 167 hp plus 9hp with a flash and 6-8hp with the head, for a total of 182-184hp. The sled weighs 420lbs dry + 69.84lbs for fuel. My titanium muffler weighs 3.6 pounds, saving 13.4lbs giving a total of 476.44 lbs. 182hp looses 21% at 7000' putting that at 151-153 hp. This gives a 3.11lb/hp.

i know this is all just on paper. But a well clutched Mod polaris 850 should beat a bone stock skidoo 850 T. Lol. Let the arguments begin......

And just watch how that Polaris goes against the T850 at 4000 ft.

 

[Teth-Air]

to the original question,

If Polaris and Arctic cat take the 400lb sled route to acheive the same power to weight ratio then why wouldnt they turbo that machine and take the market? The Skidoo turbo didnt add much weight, skidoo now has a turbo platform to reduce weight from.

Ive never rode a 400lb machine so i cant tell you if i would take that or the 850T, but i do know that having the extra 40hp at 8000ft makes the 550lb machine feel extremely light. The sleds are all so close in weight right now with the current choices the power to weight ratio is way futher ahead with the turbo skidoo.

Like mentioned above, the costs would be astronomical to build a 400lb sled, i think its coming though, You can build a Full carbon fibre XM800 that is 410lbs. right now thats an 60k Build and far from what we would consider a durable machine.

I bet they could mass produce it enough to keep it in the turbo skidoo price range to make it feasible. But by the time that happens, skidoo will have a Turbo version so after riding this 850T machine, My choice will always be the turbo if they can always maintain the higher Power to weight ratio. If thats a 400lb sled vs a 450lb sled i dont care, so long as the power to weight ratio is higher im on it, unless its a yamaha.

There are other factors to consider here, the skidoo right now has a fairly bulletproof setup. I watch my CAT friends bending tunnels like they going out of style, i watch my polaris and cat friends overheating like cooling capacity was an afterthought from engineering. At what point do you sacrifice drive ability and durability for weight?

The 2008 Summit X 154 was 429 lbs. Change out the heavy can and it was getting close to your 410 lb mark you say would take $60k.

Yes at 429 it felt heavy to ride compared to the new iron but BRP was on the right track. It's like once the Summit got the wedding ring on it just ate itself into being a fat old lady. I am glad to see the trend starting to reverse the last couple of years though. (aka N/A Expert) BTW what year was the heaviest Summit?

 

[DV-ENT]

Paper always translates to the snow. hahaha

God I hope not Sean, all my buddies lost 10hp on there XMs on paper when doo released the HP numbers on the 2017 G4... LMAO

At the end of the day it all boils down to personal preference, I've spoke personally with extremely well skilled local riders saying the turbo is great but wouldn't be their 1st choice as with the power they get fatigued easier which makes sense as they ride 5-6 days a week, others love it and its the best sled they've ever ridden. I doubt there are many people that wouldn't like that extra power on there preferred sled and I doubt you would find any rider that wouldn't like a weight reduction either, I know I would but not at the compromise of what i feel most comfortable riding. again its all preference.

 

[GreyGhost]

The 2008 Summit X 154 was 429 lbs. Change out the heavy can and it was getting close to your 410 lb mark you say would take $60k.

Yes at 429 it felt heavy to ride compared to the new iron but BRP was on the right track. It's like once the Summit got the wedding ring on it just ate itself into being a fat old lady. I am glad to see the trend starting to reverse the last couple of years though. (aka N/A Expert) BTW what year was the heaviest Summit?

Oh god my xm felt like a TANK