possible new refinery

[pano-dude]

I agree about building another refinery here in Ab or expanding on the ones that exist such as Bowden.

Your pipeline arguement holds little value though. Every train runs beside every river in BC. Derailment is way more likely than a pipeline rupture.

People do realize the product flows inside of the pipe and not outside of it I think. Wait, forget it.

I dont agreee with trains hauling crude either
My point is the risk to me and many others far out weighs gain.
Canadians are giving away our natural resources, we need to use them to our advantage.

 

[bingo1010]

so basically you dont agree with anything near where you live??? but its ok to build a refinery at hardisty cause its near someone elses home?? but you will gladly burn the fuel it produces in your sled?? the risks to others is more acceptable??

I dont agreee with trains hauling crude either
My point is the risk to me and many others far out weighs gain.
Canadians are giving away our natural resources, we need to use them to our advantage.

 

[catalac]

The tailing pond dam break in Brazil is an example of what could happen with a pipe line running through BC.

Here is something to think about, if there was a pipeline in my area of BC and a leak happened to get into the columbia river it would pollute from Canal Flats north to Revy and south to Oregon....

Why not build a refinery in Hardisty Alberta, major oil storage there.

Spoken like a true tree hugger to think a derailment into the Fraser or Columbia where thousands of cars or petro products are transported weekly is less likely and potentially a lesser environmental disaster than a pipe leak no where near the waterways.

 

[pano-dude]

so basically you dont agree with anything near where you live??? but its ok to build a refinery at hardisty cause its near someone elses home?? but you will gladly burn the fuel it produces in your sled?? the risks to others is more acceptable??

Yes i am against shipping raw product across the country to send it to another country so they can employ hundreds of their people.

Hardisty is a major oil hub, only makes sense to build a refinery there.

I am ny no means a tree hugger jusy because i live in BC. Oil is a necessity but the way we have been handling it needs to change.

 

[bingo1010]

the whole thing is world market driven, it isnt done here because it is too expensive to pay for canadian labor, the whole create jobs pitch sounds awesome and all, but look at everything you buy and how much is actually made in canada, coats, shoes, electronics, vehicles, food,...... all imported cause people want the best price, walmart built and empire on cheap products.

Yes i am against shipping raw product across the country to send it to another country so they can employ hundreds of their people.

Hardisty is a major oil hub, only makes sense to build a refinery there.

I am ny no means a tree hugger jusy because i live in BC. Oil is a necessity but the way we have been handling it needs to change.

 

[pano-dude]

the whole thing is world market driven, it isnt done here because it is too expensive to pay for canadian labor, the whole create jobs pitch sounds awesome and all, but look at everything you buy and how much is actually made in canada, coats, shoes, electronics, vehicles, food,...... all imported cause people want the best price, walmart built and empire on cheap products.

True, this is why we need to look at the entire way we live.
Do we need 5 tvs in the house?
Do we need 5000sq ft houses?
We can produce anything that is produced anywhere else in the world. We have the space the resources and the manpower. We need the governments to make it happen.
Big corporations are making billions on cheap labor on 3rd world countries. Until 1st world countries like Canada say enough is enough and figure out a way to stop it.

 

[bingo1010]

although i agree, it aint gonna happen, every year we go more the wrong way, let me ask you this....would you pay $300 for a pair of running shoes?? cause that is probably what it would cost if they were made in canada and not an aisian sweat shop, that nice i phone is already expensive at $800, build it in canada and probably cost $2000, people wont pay that. its a catch 22, need high paying job to pay for made in canada, but the higher the pay the higher end cost of all products are. just look at what small business is saying about raising the minimum wage to $15 and hr, they will fold up.

True, this is why we need to look at the entire way we live.
Do we need 5 tvs in the house?
Do we need 5000sq ft houses?
We can produce anything that is produced anywhere else in the world. We have the space the resources and the manpower. We need the governments to make it happen.
Big corporations are making billions on cheap labor on 3rd world countries. Until 1st world countries like Canada say enough is enough and figure out a way to stop it.

 

[bingo1010]

we were all tricked into the notion that globalization was for the better of us all, in the end it is good for big businees that it. but now that we have started down that road there is allmost no turning back....short of something major such as a full scale world war where all nations are forced to produce everyting they need again

 

[Ol' Sarge]

the whole thing is world market driven, it isnt done here because it is too expensive to pay for canadian labor, the whole create jobs pitch sounds awesome and all, but look at everything you buy and how much is actually made in canada, coats, shoes, electronics, vehicles, food,...... all imported cause people want the best price, walmart built and empire on cheap products.

Exactly. Refining is the least profitable (and riskiest) process in the oil business. The cost to build and operate are simply too high and every country on the face of the earth would rather do their own to meet their local specs. There is almost no trading or shipping of refined product anywhere in the world because the discounts to get into those markets would be steep. There are razor-thin margins as it is for our own domestic consumption, selling into a discounted export market would make no sense, unless of course there are enough brainwashed NDP voters who believe that our tax dollars should be used to subsidize some foreign countries' oil industry. The NW Refinery being built north of Edmonton is the first new refinery to be built in the last 35 years. There's a reason for that. It needed a commitment of $8billion taxpayer dollars. Our kids and grandkids will get to pay for it and any excess product not consumed here at home will be dumped at a loss on the world market. No risk to anyone except the taxpayer.

 

[bingo1010]

i realize that part sarge, i was more getting at the whole "made in canada" thing, but there is still the higher cost with building a refinery in canada, materials and labor type thing

 

[Ol' Sarge]

i realize that part sarge, i was more getting at the whole "made in canada" thing, but there is still the higher cost with building a refinery in canada, materials and labor type thing

I agreed with your post 100% I edited the first word of my post when I realized it.

 

[Bnorth]

Globalization is the worst thing ever to happen to North America's standard of living.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Tapatalk

 

[skegpro]

Exactly. Refining is the least profitable (and riskiest) process in the oil business. The cost to build and operate are simply too high and every country on the face of the earth would rather do their own to meet their local specs. There is almost no trading or shipping of refined product anywhere in the world because the discounts to get into those markets would be steep. There are razor-thin margins as it is for our own domestic consumption, selling into a discounted export market would make no sense, unless of course there are enough brainwashed NDP voters who believe that our tax dollars should be used to subsidize some foreign countries' oil industry. The NW Refinery being built north of Edmonton is the first new refinery to be built in the last 35 years. There's a reason for that. It needed a commitment of $8billion taxpayer dollars. Our kids and grandkids will get to pay for it and any excess product not consumed here at home will be dumped at a loss on the world market. No risk to anyone except the taxpayer.

At low crude prices refineries and chemical plants will be the only plants in the oilfield making money.

NWR is a good thing, it will help to bring down high diesel prices in Alberta which in turn will spur the economy.
The goverment will make back their money quickly on that one. Even old knot head likes that project.

The oil or refined product needs to get to markets regardless if they are national or international.

Canada should build three pipelines that span coast to coast.

1. For raw crude.
2. For refined product.
3. For diluent.

Then every provinces could draw from it what it wishes and the surplus could exit via the Atlantic or Pacific.

Its about time we stop consuming Venezuelan crude ahead of our own.

 

[pano-dude]

We can change it in small ways. Buy your
groceries from farmers markets not sobeys etc.
No easy answer for sure but we as Canadians are getting screwed by big out of country corporations and our governments are letting it happen.
They continue to allow small canadian resource companies to be swallowed up.

 

[Cdnfireman]

At low crude prices refineries and chemical plants will be the only plants in the oilfield making money.

NWR is a good thing, it will help to bring down high diesel prices in Alberta which in turn will spur the economy.
The goverment will make back their money quickly on that one. Even old knot head likes that project.

The oil or refined product needs to get to markets regardless if they are national or international.

Canada should build three pipelines that span coast to coast.
I ally
1. For raw crude.
2. For refined product.
3. For diluent.

Then every provinces could draw from it what it wishes and the surplus could exit via the Atlantic or Pacific.

Its about time we stop consuming Venezuelan crude ahead of our own.

All nice thoughts but not gonna happen in reality. Diesel prices are set by the marketing people in the office towers. occasionally a refinery glitch will spike prices for a few days, but it's rare. We've all seen here in western Canada where the say that prices have to go up because of a supply problem in the Midwest U.S., but it's just more marketing strategies designed to keep prices high. Very few refineries ever operate at 100% capacity.
Theres also no way that central Canada will agree to a trans-Canada distribution system unless Ontario and Quebec get a cut of the royalties. We've seen that recently when the premiers of Ontario and Quebec outright said it. It's a Canadian tradition that what beongs to Ontario and Quebec is theirs, and what belongs to Alberta also belongs to central Canada. They never have wanted the west to prosper and never will. They'd rather buy oil from Venezuela and refine it in eastern Canada than buy any refined product from the west. The only reason they buy western Canadian natural gas is because they can't get it reliably anywhere else.
Eastern Canada now sees that for the first time, the wealth of the country and the value of the dollar is more related to and affected by western Canadian commodity prices, and much less by central Canadian manufactured goods and processes. They hate that, and with the help of Rachel notley, they are going to do their level best to destroy the Alberta and Saskatchewan economies, dismantle "dirty" oil infrastructure and create a tax and investment climate in western Canada so toxic to resource development that external money will not consider coming here.
Prosperity is fine, just as long as it's central Canada that prospers. Look at the third world economies of the Maritime provinces that blunder along barely existing on federal handouts and controls if you need further examples of this.

 

[rebel]

Imo, It would be nice to get more of our product to tide water so we could sell it for full price, even now when prices are low, instead of half price to the US. Asia needs our product. The US is buying our crude cause its cheap but eventually they are going to run out of storage, what then? TC energy east pipe makes sense, it's proposed on existing right of way, with existing pipe as long as it passes inspection, and feeds existing refineries plus tide water option.
Kinder Morgan same thing existing right of way, feeds local refineries, and tide water to ship anywhere.

There was talk years ago about a refinery in Hardisty. Issue was no water for the process. I Imagine the process Is better and this wouldnt be an Issue. Talked about again issue was high cost to build slow return. Im all for another refinery in Alberta heck Canada but get a company or companies to step to the plate with support from the governments is another issue. Maybe in Saskatchewan. There will be lots of cheap labour coming from Alberta once the e/i runs out.

 

[Cdnfireman]

Imo, It would be nice to get more of our product to tide water so we could sell it for full price, even now when prices are low, instead of half price to the US. Asia needs our product. The US is buying our crude cause its cheap but eventually they are going to run out of storage, what then? TC energy east pipe makes sense, it's proposed on existing right of way, with existing pipe as long as it passes inspection, and feeds existing refineries plus tide water option.
Kinder Morgan same thing existing right of way, feeds local refineries, and tide water to ship anywhere.

There was talk years ago about a refinery in Hardisty. Issue was no water for the process. I Imagine the process Is better and this wouldnt be an Issue. Talked about again issue was high cost to build slow return. Im all for another refinery in Alberta heck Canada but get a company or companies to step to the plate with support from the governments is another issue. Maybe in Saskatchewan. There will be lots of cheap labour coming from Alberta once the e/i runs out.

Agreed, but the problem with a refinery in rural Ab or Sask is access to markets for the refined products. The local markets are too small, and it's too costly and time consuming to batch ship refined products through a pipeline. It's much more economical to ship crude oil through a dedicated line to a big refinery nearer a big market and then refine it there closer to the end user.
Add to that the heavy end byproducts (asphaltines, mazut etc) are product better suited for further refining or use in a marine environment. It's no accident that if you look worldwide refineries are typically built either on the coast or on major rivers where large ships are able to take product.

 

[rsaint]

We can change it in small ways. Buy your
groceries from farmers markets not sobeys etc.
No easy answer for sure but we as Canadians are getting screwed by big out of country corporations and our governments are letting it happen.
They continue to allow small canadian resource companies to be swallowed up.

Walmart good example killing small town buisness.

 

[rebel]

Agreed, but the problem with a refinery in rural Ab or Sask is access to markets for the refined products. The local markets are too small, and it's too costly and time consuming to batch ship refined products through a pipeline. It's much more economical to ship crude oil through a dedicated line to a big refinery nearer a big market and then refine it there closer to the end user.
Add to that the heavy end byproducts (asphaltines, mazut etc) are product better suited for further refining or use in a marine environment. It's no accident that if you look worldwide refineries are typically built either on the coast or on major rivers where large ships are able to take product.

Alberta could handle another small refinery so we dont have the fuel shortage every summer when they are taken down for maintenance or have an unexpected issue. Or is that planned??? Conspiracy. ....

 

[Ol' Sarge]

Sturgeon Refinery: Why do NDP prefer projects where Albertans are sure to lose? - The Rebel