My experience with the Tesla Model 3

win

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No thanks
I’ll keep my gas guzzling 2500 and support our Alberta economy
Most or all cobalt is mined in the Congo


But there’s a problem. As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required to enable that transformation could become a serious issue in its own right. “One of the biggest environmental problems caused by our endless hunger for the latest and smartest devices is a growing mineral crisis, particularly those needed to make our batteries,” says Christina Valimaki an analyst at Elsevier.

In South America, the biggest problem is water. The continent’s Lithium Triangle, which covers parts of Argentina, Bolivia and Chile, holds more than half the world’s supply of the metal beneath its otherworldly salt flats. It’s also one of the driest places on earth. That’s a real issue, because to extract lithium, miners start by drilling a hole in the salt flats and pumping salty, mineral-rich brine to the surface.

Then they leave it to evaporate for months at a time, first creating a mixture of manganese, potassium, borax and lithium salts which is then filtered and placed into another evaporation pool, and so on. After between 12 and 18 months, the mixture has been filtered enough that lithium carbonate – white gold – can be extracted.

It’s a relatively cheap and effective process, but it uses a lot of water – approximately 500,000 gallons per tonne of lithium. In Chile’s Salar de Atacama, mining activities consumed 65 per cent of the region’s water. That is having a big impact on local farmers – who grow quinoa and herd llamas – in an area where some communities already have to get water driven in from elsewhere.

There’s also the potential – as occurred in Tibet – for toxic chemicals to leak from the evaporation pools into the water supply. These include chemicals, including hydrochloric acid, which are used in the processing of lithium into a form that can be sold, as well as those waste products that are filtered out of the brine at each stage. In Australia and North America, lithium is mined from rock using more traditional methods, but still requires the use of chemicals in order to extract it in a useful form. Research in Nevada found impacts on fish as far as 150 miles downstream from a lithium processing operation.

According to a report by Friends of the Earth, lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and causes air contamination. In Argentina’s Salar de Hombre Muerto, locals claim that lithium operations have contaminated streams used by humans and livestock, and for crop irrigation. In Chile, there have been clashes between mining companies and local communities, who say that lithium mining is leaving the landscape marred by mountains of discarded salt and canals filled with contaminated water with an unnatural blue hue.

“Like any mining process, it is invasive, it scars the landscape, it destroys the water table and it pollutes the earth and the local wells,” said Guillermo Gonzalez, a lithium battery expert from the University of Chile, in a 2009 interview. “This isn’t a green solution – it’s not a solution at all.”

But lithium may not be the most problematic ingredient of modern rechargeable batteries. It is relatively abundant, and could in theory be generated from seawater in future, albeit through a very energy-intensive process.

Two other key ingredients, cobalt and nickel, are more in danger of creating a bottleneck in the move towards electric vehicles, and at a potentially huge environmental cost. Cobalt is found in huge quantities right across the Democratic Republic of Congo and central Africa, and hardly anywhere else. The price has quadrupled in the last two years.

Unlike most metals, which are not toxic when they’re pulled from the ground as metal ores, cobalt is “uniquely terrible,” according to Gleb Yushin, chief technical officer and founder of battery materials company Sila Nanotechnologies.

“One of the biggest challenges with cobalt is that it’s located in one country,” he adds. You can literally just dig up the land and find cobalt, so there’s a very strong motivation to dig it up and sell it, and a a result there’s a lot of motivation for unsafe and unethical behaviour.” The Congo is home to ‘artisanal mines’, where cobalt is extracted from the ground by hand, often using child labour, without protective equipment.
 

jhurkot

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https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/todays-new-tesla-model-3-has-erm-93-miles-range

Seems to be a bit pricey for a car that could just barely make it from Calgary to Red Deer on one charge in perfect conditions.....

Tesla made this car 1 dollar cheaper than the $45k limit. It is not an actual car you would buy. You could if you really wanted but it’s pointless. The 93 mile version can not be software updated. You would get the $55k model with 386km range and autopilot included. You could also get the $48k model with less features (no heated seats, software deleted fog lights, no live traffic updates) and no autopilot. There is no rational reason to own this car without autopilot.

You could buy the standard range car and then software unlock more range, autopilot/FSD, and physical features. It’s more expensive that way. No other car maker allows you to add features to your car via software. All vehicles ship with the hardware for full self driving capability.

If you plan on doing longer trips in the polar vortex I highly recommend the long range versions.
 

Stg2Suby

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So any trim level of Model 3 qualifies for the $5000 rebate in Canada, it's just a technicality that Tesla had to list the base price under $45,000 in order to qualify for the rebate?
 

jhurkot

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So any trim level of Model 3 qualifies for the $5000 rebate in Canada, it's just a technicality that Tesla had to list the base price under $45,000 in order to qualify for the rebate?

Well not any trim. The highest you can go is the standard range plus. RWD, partial premium interior, 380km range, with autopilot. The performance and long range variants are not included.
 

Teth-Air

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Well not any trim. The highest you can go is the standard range plus. RWD, partial premium interior, 380km range, with autopilot. The performance and long range variants are not included.

Johnny, time to build that electric sled. Maybe you can talk Trudoe into giving $5000 towards the project!
 

Steve D

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That would be a valid argument if cars came with exactly one tank of fuel for the life of the vehicle.
 

win

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Food for thought
240v x 24amps =6 kw for each charging station.

Now if you calculate approximate 500000 registered cars in Alberta charging all at the same time that’s 30,000,000kw/40,230,000 h/p a day worst case scenario of course. And at least 30% or more goes to heat that’s a lot of BTUs
Can you imagine the infrastructure thats needed.

I am a fan of DC motors though

IMO this will never happen
 

ABMax24

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Food for thought
240v x 24amps =6 kw for each charging station.

Now if you calculate approximate 500000 registered cars in Alberta charging all at the same time that’s 30,000,000kw/40,230,000 h/p a day worst case scenario of course. And at least 30% or more goes to heat that’s a lot of BTUs
Can you imagine the infrastructure thats needed.

I am a fan of DC motors though

IMO this will never happen

You're out by a factor of 10, 500,000 x 6 = 3,000,000kw, or 3,000 MW which is about a third of the average consumption in Alberta, a very realistic and achievable amount of power to generate.

I'm sure back in the 1900's many thought the gas powered car wouldn't catch on either, the infrastructure was too immense to build. Now we have a gas station on almost every corner, a fleet of thousands of tanker trucks to deliver the fuel, pipelines refineries and oil wells to produce the fuel, and a small army employed to run and operate this infrastructure.

The battery powered electric car may not be the sole solution, but it will be a big part of it. Sooner or later we will have to find an alternative fuel source, whether it be to cut emissions of CO2 or because we simply run out of oil, eventually we will have to change.
 

Cdnfireman

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You're out by a factor of 10, 500,000 x 6 = 3,000,000kw, or 3,000 MW which is about a third of the average consumption in Alberta, a very realistic and achievable amount of power to generate.

I'm sure back in the 1900's many thought the gas powered car wouldn't catch on either, the infrastructure was too immense to build. Now we have a gas station on almost every corner, a fleet of thousands of tanker trucks to deliver the fuel, pipelines refineries and oil wells to produce the fuel, and a small army employed to run and operate this infrastructure.

The battery powered electric car may not be the sole solution, but it will be a big part of it. Sooner or later we will have to find an alternative fuel source, whether it be to cut emissions of CO2 or because we simply run out of oil, eventually we will have to change.

Unlikely in our lifetimes. EV’s are a niche technology and will continue to be until the problems of battery life are solved. Nobody is looking into the supply of the specialized metals required to construct the batteries. There’s few locations in the world where they exist and a finite supply where they do. The supporters claim that increased demand will result in economies of scale that will lower the prices, but in actuality the more likely scenario is that the supply of rare metals required will either begin to dry up, or greed will prevail and the supplies will be acquired by consortiums or wealthy individuals seeking to manipulate the prices.
And everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room which is the huge toxic waste mountain of worn out batteries that will begin to pile up. There is no technology yet than can undo the sintering of the toxic materials contained in the batteries. They will be stockpiled somewhere, abandoned in huge numbers by whomever replaces them. And like all toxic waste abandoned in the past, taxpayers will be left to bear the costs of dealing with it. So not only are taxpayers subsidizing the production and purchase of these vehicles, they’ll be subsidizing cleaning up the mess left behind by them.
And for the proponents that say a recycling method will materialize, who is gonna pay for it? The manufacturers aren’t looking at it, and if you look at the farce that is our normal household recycling streams, it’s highly unlikely that anybody else in private industry will either.
 

win

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You're out by a factor of 10, 500,000 x 6 = 3,000,000kw, or 3,000 MW which is about a third of the average consumption in Alberta, a very realistic and achievable amount of power to generate.

I'm sure back in the 1900's many thought the gas powered car wouldn't catch on either, the infrastructure was too immense to build. Now we have a gas station on almost every corner, a fleet of thousands of tanker trucks to deliver the fuel, pipelines refineries and oil wells to produce the fuel, and a small army employed to run and operate this infrastructure.

The battery powered electric car may not be the sole solution, but it will be a big part of it. Sooner or later we will have to find an alternative fuel source, whether it be to cut emissions of CO2 or because we simply run out of oil, eventually we will have to change.

There are 5 million registered vehicles in Alberta.
Not saying technically it will stay the same but battery power is old school , there were EV back in the 1832
 

ABMax24

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Unlikely in our lifetimes. EV’s are a niche technology and will continue to be until the problems of battery life are solved. Nobody is looking into the supply of the specialized metals required to construct the batteries. There’s few locations in the world where they exist and a finite supply where they do. The supporters claim that increased demand will result in economies of scale that will lower the prices, but in actuality the more likely scenario is that the supply of rare metals required will either begin to dry up, or greed will prevail and the supplies will be acquired by consortiums or wealthy individuals seeking to manipulate the prices.
And everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room which is the huge toxic waste mountain of worn out batteries that will begin to pile up. There is no technology yet than can undo the sintering of the toxic materials contained in the batteries. They will be stockpiled somewhere, abandoned in huge numbers by whomever replaces them. And like all toxic waste abandoned in the past, taxpayers will be left to bear the costs of dealing with it. So not only are taxpayers subsidizing the production and purchase of these vehicles, they’ll be subsidizing cleaning up the mess left behind by them.
And for the proponents that say a recycling method will materialize, who is gonna pay for it? The manufacturers aren’t looking at it, and if you look at the farce that is our normal household recycling streams, it’s highly unlikely that anybody else in private industry will either.

Everything you wrote also applies to the oil and gas industry, yet we can still buy oil based products at mostly reasonable prices.

What is overlooked is the fact that there a very limited number of electric vehicles near end of life currently, and many companies including Tesla are reusing their old batteries from the automotive side into energy storage such as the Tesla powerwall. These batteries are being pulled out of cars when they see a 10% degradation in performance, something that doesn't matter for energy storage, a few extra batteries inside the Powerwall won't matter to the end use consumer. There are technologies out available to recycle Lithium batteries they are expensive however. Maybe what should be done is pay a fee is paid upon purchase of the vehicle to cover this recycling cost, much like we currently do for electronics, drink containers, tires, or refrigerants.

End of life cleanup is a major issue for most industries, look at the old smelters in Ontario that the government is cleaning up, the Orphan well program in Alberta for bankrupt oil companies that the taxpayer is on the hook for, the coal power plants in the US that have reached end of life and power companies have walked away from leaving taxpayers to pay to demolish. This is not a problem unique to EV's, it exists in almost all industry, but no politician wants to enact legislation to fix this, they'd rather continue to push the problem to the next generation.
 

ABMax24

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There are 5 million registered vehicles in Alberta.
Not saying technically it will stay the same but battery power is old school , there were EV back in the 1832

"One study by the University of Victoria's Pacific Institute for Climate Solutions that even in winter, when electricity demand is highest, B.C. had the unused capacity on its grid to charge nearly 2.4 million light-duty vehicles — almost all the 2.8 million registered vehicles in the province."

"Hydro-Québec calculated that an electric car would use about the same amount of energy in an average year as a hot-water heater, and is just as confident about its ability to meet overall electricity needs."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-electric-cars-electricity-system-1.3526558
 

jhurkot

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Batteries will be recycled because of the value of the precious metals. It will be cheaper to recycle a battery than mine new material.

94km in polar vortex using about 21-24kWh (sitting outside at night without being plugged in)
94km in 10 degrees is using 16kWh
94km in 20 degrees 13kWh

Still running winter tires as well.

500km of range (could probably get 600km of city driving but I'm not a taxi driver) with the equivalent energy value of 9L of gasoline. 1.8L/100km.
Explain to me how an ICE engine that is running at 25% efficiency is better? Every time you come to a stop you lose ALL your kinetic energy as a net loss and cause wear on your brake components.

Now as far as technology goes, if you buy a car that can not be updated over the air (OTA) you have bought something that is obsolete.
Here is a list of things that have improved since purchase via software...
Built in dash cam
Automatic updates of google maps
Ability to enter and exit highways automatically
Ability to pass slower moving vehicles on the highway with no confirmation (steering wheel vibrates and then lane change is executed)
Red light warning if you appear to run a red light
30hp increase (0-60 from 4.8s to 4.4s)
Sentry mode, activates cameras while vehicle is parked and sends notification to phone if vehicle is disturbed
Teslatari, classic Atari games you can play while parked
Supercharging rate increased from 120kw to 150kw and improved battery conditioning when navigating to supercharger location (basically gets the battery ready for a high charge rate)
Supercharger V3 will charge at 250kw (1600km/h rate) coming soon
Advanced summon will drive the car to your location in a parking lot or drop you off and find its own parking spot (coming soon)

Do you think the children of the iPhone/iPad generation are going to be filling their cars with gasoline or diesel?
 
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win

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A question we need to ask ourselves is if these cars are really reducing CO2 emissions. An electric car's exhaust simply flows out of a different tailpipe, often far away.
 
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