Jetforce Avalanche Pack

[S.W.A.T.]

In some aspects I have to chuckle. I have read so many threads on this site about how guys won't ride with other guys unless they have taken certain courses and carry certain gear. What have happened to knowledge and skill? If the weather report says extream avalanche warning and the CAC sends out alearts and warnings and you still go to high risk area's and get to the mountain and do your snow profile that you paid to learn how in basic avi course and could see the snow pack was not stable and you choose to climb a chute to show your buddy who has the bigger wiener and put your faith in a balloon?

What not just ride a safer area that day?

 

[lilduke]

So if the CAC says Avalanche conditions in the Alpine are Low to Moderate that means your not going to be buried in a Avalanche?? The way you get "knowledge and Skill" is through education and spending many,many years in Avalanche terrain. The bulletin is just a guideline.

 

[S.W.A.T.]

So if the CAC says Avalanche conditions in the Alpine are Low to Moderate that means your not going to be buried in a Avalanche?? The way you get "knowledge and Skill" is through education and spending many,many years in Avalanche terrain. The bulletin is just a guideline.

Think you missed the point. The bag doesn't prevent anything, but hey wear it and take the chances. Your choice, how many sledders will we read about this year?

 

[lilduke]

The bag doesn't prevent anything, but hey wear it and take the chances. Your choice, how many sledders will we read about this year?

Yeah I agree with you about the bag, like I had said previously; its a last resort and agreed you don't want to be in that position. You have to know what you're looking at though. People get killed on some pretty small & unassuming terrain.(knock on wood) Hopefully its a safe year out there.

 

[Wilk INStheWEST]

Think you missed the point. The bag doesn't prevent anything, but hey wear it and take the chances. Your choice, how many sledders will we read about this year?

Why do all the airbag haters just assume that guys who wear these are out there pushing the limits of safety, just because they have an airbag. I don't go trying to lawn dart into objects just because I have a helmet on.

 

[347strokin]

Why do all the airbag haters just assume that guys who wear these are out there pushing the limits of safety, just because they have an airbag. I don't go trying to lawn dart into objects just because I have a helmet on.

Good point. I have noticed some negative attitudes towards the guys who wear these bags. It's just a last line of defense, not a reason to get into terrain we shouldn't be riding.

 

[Polar_RMK]

I do not have any negative attitudes towards any guys who wear them. Just think that these bags are kinda useless, and ppl shouldn't go where they shouldn't be (with or without bags -it doesn't matter). Last year we lost about 5-6 guys (both sledders and skiers), I do not want to see it this season again.
Have a safe trip.
P.S In our community -had one got into avalanche -we were all digging. After seing dead buddy, guys aren't riding there anymore. ppl used to learn the hard way -its a human's nature

 

[Wilk INStheWEST]

I do not have any negative attitudes towards any guys who wear them. Just think that these bags are kinda useless, and ppl shouldn't go where they shouldn't be (with or without bags -it doesn't matter). Last year we lost about 5-6 guys (both sledders and skiers), I do not want to see it this season again.
Have a safe trip.
P.S In our community -had one got into avalanche -we were all digging. After seing dead buddy, guys aren't riding there anymore. ppl used to learn the hard way -its a human's nature

If you want to have 0 chance of getting caught in an avalanche, go ride the prairies or stick to trail riding in Ontario. There are slides on ski resorts in bounds, and not just on the gnarly chutes and stuff. It is a calculated risk that we take by spending any time in the mountains. We take steps to minimize that risk, but the fact is it will never be 0.

 

[dezmitchell]

Just think that these bags are kinda useless, and ppl shouldn't go where they shouldn't be (with or without bags -it doesn't matter)

ARE YOU NUTS these bags save lives and are far from useless we ride 40+ days a year and i would never dream of riding with out one they are a last defence you should do your homework a bit buddy before you make such a BS claim.

I am AST level 1 certified and have extensive S&R training and medical training people ride in dangerous areas regardless of what equipment they have its either ignorance or stupidity

 

[Barry Barton]

Think you missed the point. The bag doesn't prevent anything, but hey wear it and take the chances. Your choice, how many sledders will we read about this year?

U don't the point they give u a good chance of surving if u get caught in a avalanche so if u don't want to where one don't but don't nock the guys that do. Even if it gives me a 10% chance of surviving i'll wear one.

 

[Polar_RMK]

ARE YOU NUTS these bags save lives and are far from useless we ride 40+ days a year and i would never dream of riding with out one they are a last defence you should do your homework a bit buddy before you make such a BS claim.

I am AST level 1 certified and have extensive S&R training and medical training people ride in dangerous areas regardless of what equipment they have its either ignorance or stupidity

I am not.
If someone wears these bags and thinks that he is more protected then others without them and rides highers because of his confidence level -- he is 100% wrong. That is everything I wanted to say, nothing personal.
I understand that some companies are selling that cheap chinise sh-t, for high bucks, making profit, + they also give courses. These courses should be free. Well, I am not trying to destroy someones busness, just don't like when someone fools people. And price ppl gonna pay will be too high.
BTW, I have a PhD in geophysics with specialisation in snow&ice science and polar meteorology, I do give lectures at university. In addition to that I am a member of red cross team.

 

[clay923]

Hey i got air bags on my truck and i don't drive any different now then i did back in 1978 with my new truck, believe it or not 28 years ago we didn't have beacons to use and avy courses to take just out our back door. so people get educated and help educate others, and use all this new technology to our advantage.

 

[Modman]

Why do all the airbag haters just assume that guys who wear these are out there pushing the limits of safety, just because they have an airbag. I don't go trying to lawn dart into objects just because I have a helmet on.

I was staying out of this....until now. LOL Why is there assumption you ask? I've been riding the hills for over 25 yrs, our early years (like in the 1980's.,...) we never had beacons or bags probes, but we also only had 67 HP, 118" tracks with 3/4" paddles and it took some serious skill and riding at 4 am on hard pack to get into some of these places you can almost trail ride to now. These noobs today, they got no clue. Honestly they don't. I sold some parts to a guy recently, got to BSing with him, turns out he's never been on a sled in his life, so he bought an M1000......now, do you think he's probably got too much sled for his skill level? I don't know about some of the stats you guys are throwing around, 97% likelihood of survival or something I think I read? Fat chance IMO. I think its something like 30-40% of avy victims die from trauma sustained from hitting other objects, and the air bag isn't going to save you from that.

Generally we avoid the busy areas, but no matter what, every time I pull into one of the mainstream spots, I can guarantee there are at least a handful of people running on a hill, no matter what the snow conditions or the avy bulletin says. So if you are wondering why - its because we actually see people pushing the limits of safety, its not a fallacy. Pick a low aspect area and ride there and lets loose the stubborn attitudes about "it can't happen to me." The attitude on the hill is pretty easy to detect, usually the guys with the cavalier approach are pretty visible. This year you can buy a 174" track and 160 HP from the factory, so anyone can buy these things and unload in the parking lot. Its simply a statistical probability. Play with often enough and sooner or later you will get burned.

I get what Polar RMK is saying - Avy bags are meant to be a line of defense that you really shouldn't have to use, its a nice safety cushion and we are all aware that not everyone who has them shares a complacent attitude towards their safety so I am not broad stroking all avy bag users, but long before your avy bag is needed, your brain should be processing the information and telling you that your exposure is too great and the likelihood of you needing to use the avy bag is far higher than normal. Being a member of a S&R team - well, the guy involved in this avy was a member of the Yellowstone S&R team too...... Don't get cavalier about the mountain or she'll give you a demonstration of her awesome power and you just better hope that its a learning experience that you can walk away from.



Place: Meadow Mountain area
State: BC
Country: CANADA
Summary: 14 snowmobilers caught, carried, 5 buried, 3 injured

***MEDIA REPORTS****

Please visit: canada.com – Breaking news‚ Canada‚ World‚ Weather‚ Travel‚ Video & more

'There is no reason why I should be alive'

Avalanche survivor counts blessings that all were spared

Bob Keating

Special to The Province

NELSON -- When the avalanche came roaring down Meadow Mountain, Craig Borash grabbed a tree and rode it like a toboggan.

"There is no reason why I should be alive," Borash said yesterday, fighting back tears. "God wanted me to be with my family."

The 33-year-old West Yellowstone, Mont., man was among 14 extreme snowmobilers -- 12 Americans, two from B.C. -- who were swept away by a massive wall of snow Sunday in the remote backcountry north of Kaslo.

The avalanche snapped trees like twigs and pulverized their snowmobiles.

Miraculously, all 14 survived.

The slide hit just before 5 p.m. Sunday in the Meadow Mountain area in the Selkirk range as the snowmobilers were getting in a few runs before darkness fell.

Two riders were on a ridge high in the alpine. A third was making her ascent.

Without warning, a huge layer of snow up to 20 metres high and nearly a kilometre long sliced away from the ridge and barrelled down the slope.

"I ran for the biggest tree I could find and jumped on to it just as the wall of snow hit," recalled Borash. "It snapped the tree and down we went."

"I just kept bouncing around and went through some other trees with the wall of snow behind me. By some miracle, the biggest wall of snow snow stopped 20 yards behind me.

"I've been on Yellowstone [Park] search and rescue for 10 years and I've witnessed a lot of slides and dug a lot of people out, but I've never seen anything like this."

Borash was buried up to his shoulders in snow so densely packed it took an hour to dig him out.

James Phelan, 33, an optometrist and veteran rider from Helena, Mont., was in a separate party when the snow came cascading down. His machine was running and he tried to out-run the avalanche, dragging a fellow rider behind who hung on to the back for his life.

"I was dragging a man hanging on to my bumper," Phelan said yesterday. "I kept looking back and the snow kept coming. I had no choice but to go off a cliff.

Phelan seriously strained his knee jumping off the cliff, and it took him three hours to crawl back to rest of the riders. He couldn't believe he was still alive.

"It is a miracle of no one was hurt or seriously hurt or killed," he said. "I mean, everyone was involved in this. How no one died I have no idea."

Phelan's wife, 28-year-old Melisse, also survived by hanging on to a tree as the snow spun her like a rag doll. She was buried to her head but could breathe and yell for help.

"I heard people yelling and screaming to get shovels and start looking," she said. "People just ran and dug and did what they had to." She suffered a broken leg.

Although half of the party was buried, only one person was completely covered -- an unidentified teenage girl who is believed to have triggered the avalanche when she began her ascent of the steep slope. She was quickly dug out by her frantic father.

Everyone in the group had beacons and most had shovels, Phelan said.

Some riders started a fire to keep warm, while others located the few snow machines that were not buried or crushed, and sped off to get help.

A Meadow Creek guide and lodge owner, Allan Drury, helped with the rescue and said it was incredible they all came out alive. He said some of the machines were buried in up to 20 metres of snow.

"It was pure luck, first of all," Drury said. "But the slide was so heavy, water saturated, that it floated them up on top. They stayed on top. [The slide] squeezed 'em up."

The Meadow Mountain area, he added, "has been red [the highest avalanche-danger rating] all season . . . they shouldn't have been on it."

Only when the rescued snowmobilers were taken to a back-country cabin did it dawn on them how lucky they were to be alive, said Melisse Phelan.

"We all sat there, said a prayer and cried," she said.

Borash said he doesn't care that his snowmobile was buried by the avalanche.

"I'm never riding it again," he vowed.

This has been the worst season in B.C. history for avalanches. More then two dozen people have killed."

 

[dezmitchell]

BTW, I have a PhD in geophysics with specialisation in snow&ice science and polar meteorology, I do give lectures at university. In addition to that I am a member of red cross team.

and i still wouldnt ride with you seem to be a bit ignorant for such an educated man, education (courses) are extremely important and anything that is proven to help save my live is worth buying. For a man who claims hes so educated and is into education himself, but says these courses should be free? Something isint right here. Good education is worth paying for you (a man who lectures) should know this.

 

[norona]

Seems like many of these new threads, they quickly turn into a pissing match!

The mountain does not care how good of a rider you are or think you are. It also does not care how much avy training you have or how good you are at making good decisions. It will bite!

So get as much education as you can, and it is always an ongoing process so keep learning and going to courses. Wear the gear you are comfortable using and know how to use it! Educate others in a way that does not talk down to them, everyone makes mistakes and isn't nice when some one helps you instead of calling you an idiot! If you want to teach, then learn how to teach!

Avy bags like all the gear you should carry with you in the mountains, do work, but nothing is above good decision making! And making a good decision is the hardest thing every rider has to do each and every time they go riding! Have a safe winter everyone!

 

[RGM]

Dave pretty much nails it. The other thing I would add is do you understand your decision making. Their have been some knowledgeable people that should of known better that end up dead. Human factors are a big part of decision making. Everyone has the occasional brain fart and if by wearing an airbag I get a chance to sled again the next day I am going to wear one.

 

[Barry Barton]

Dez said the right words education does help and yes even with the right decisions things happen like my son last year got caught in a small slide when he was going up after another sled and he turned out at the last second. My son was on his ass and went through the slide and lauched the sled in the air. It scared the **** out of him and he said he was reaching for the avy bag but seen it was such a small slide he went through it. We had two of us of on a ridge watching to make sure if a slide let go we were close to help and out of the line of fire. If u think the avy bag is a rip off don't carry any safety gear and then see who will ride with you.

 

[Depsnolvr]

You get a hug! Well said mr.

Seems like many of these new threads, they quickly turn into a pissing match!

The mountain does not care how good of a rider you are or think you are. It also does not care how much avy training you have or how good you are at making good decisions. It will bite!

So get as much education as you can, and it is always an ongoing process so keep learning and going to courses. Wear the gear you are comfortable using and know how to use it! Educate others in a way that does not talk down to them, everyone makes mistakes and isn't nice when some one helps you instead of calling you an idiot! If you want to teach, then learn how to teach!

Avy bags like all the gear you should carry with you in the mountains, do work, but nothing is above good decision making! And making a good decision is the hardest thing every rider has to do each and every time they go riding! Have a safe winter everyone!

 

[Barry Barton]

I am not.
If someone wears these bags and thinks that he is more protected then others without them and rides highers because of his confidence level -- he is 100% wrong. That is everything I wanted to say, nothing personal.
I understand that some companies are selling that cheap chinise sh-t, for high bucks, making profit, + they also give courses. These courses should be free. Well, I am not trying to destroy someones busness, just don't like when someone fools people. And price ppl gonna pay will be too high.
BTW, I have a PhD in geophysics with specialisation in snow&ice science and polar meteorology, I do give lectures at university. In addition to that I am a member of red cross team.

good for u all the education u have u should no not to make comments like this, you are like all the other people that say all sledders are stupid yes their are some dum asssssssssssssssssssssss but most riders are very resposalby. So next time choose your words a little better.

 

[Modman]

good for u all the education u have u should no not to make comments like this, you are like all the other people that say all sledders are stupid yes their are some dum asssssssssssssssssssssss but most riders are very resposalby. So next time choose your words a little better.

Why can't he comment? Because you don't like what he has to say? LOL Tell us about your son's slide last year, what was the slope like, where did it trigger, what were the avy conditions, did you dig a snow pit to assess the conditions on that aspect? etc etc. Tell us the whole story. People don't talk about this kind of stuff because it means they probably have to admit a mistake.

What he's talking about when he says people think they are more protected with their safety gear is called "Risk Compensation". Its proven that people adjust their behaviour based on their perceived risk level (i.e. people drive faster with seatbelts and air bags because they think they are safer). People will take more risks when they feel they are more protected, its been documented. Just because there is a lower perceived level of risk because you have added safety gear on, doesn't actually make it true though, and this is where folks need to use their brains more. Getting out and getting educated is one thing, applying that education is entirely another.