Jetforce Avalanche Pack
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teeroy
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here is the old SnoWest thread from 2011. get ready to stop buying a lot of stuff.
SnoWest Snowmobile Forum - View Single Post - Which companies are against snowmobiling??
neilsleder
Active VIP Member
I never looked at these bags to close, but the blow the bag up bye using fans right? My worry is if it's a super deep powder day but the temp is around the zero mark and the snow sticks to everything. Then the temp drops down to around -10 or so and it might ice up where the bags draws it air from then it won't inflate.
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Weirboondocking
Active VIP Member
first off I think sledding Has been growing over the last few years and some of these non motorized groups are going to have to look at all the work our sledding communities go throughout to protect and improve the backcountry access for all user groups. I also avoid supporting products that are against us. With that said I want the best safety gear money can buy. I think that we have really good options as it is that have very few components to deploy the airbags, for me that seems to be important. I have been using ABS for years now and I am very happy with there products.
If somebody thinks that one's can grab that equipment and be safe in avalanche areas - he is completely wrong. With that equipment he will only loose mobility to escape- there are just seconds to run away. Companies are making money, selling that useless crap, they care the only about profit not your safety, neither your life.
In my whole life I have never seen any single person who sirvived because of these balloons.
Look at the any avalanche videos, see how avalanche starts? - in most cases its starts as a broken slab of snow, crivases are growing then it going down turning around like in a washing mashine, snow melts cuse of friction and refreeze. Its becoming heavy and eventually turning to something like a concrete. Try lifting one these snow boulders after avalanche and you'll see that I mean. When you were a kid, have you ever built any snowman? When you rolling fresh snow its becomes compact and heavy. So we were alwyas asking somebody stronger to lift these balls one on another.
Oh well, we have 2 kinds of avalanches, the slab type something i mentioned above and avalanche concisting of fresh snow. Theoretically, these balloons might help you in second scenario, but avalanche consisiting of fresh snow usually doesn't make much damage, and easy predictable because you see fresh snow on top. The first type is a deadly one.
Slap type of avalanche happens when snow gets a loose layer inside of snow pack. It happens because of transfer of moisture trought snow pack, moisture following the temperature gradient, if after snowfall we get cold nights, then snow inside warm and very cold on the surface so, we get snow transfer inside out.
Because of that transfer we get snow empty inside and very hard on the surface, something you never see but you feel it when you do snowshoeing or skiing (snow falls down under your feet with a noise). When it happens on the slope- its a ticking bomb, waiting to explode under unprepared sledder or skier.
Have a safe ride guys.
Alex
Wilk INStheWEST
Active VIP Member
He said "Thanks Tips" because you said something that is fairly common knowledge for those that spend any amount of time in the back country, and this unreadable paragraph is much of the same.
The air bags DO help in any avalanche condition. Let me share a little bit of basic science. When an avalanche occurs, the snow is basically flowing like a liquid (in either type of avalanche). So, just think of it as water. Would pulling some sort of air bag (say a personal floatation device) help if you were stuck under water? ABSOLUTELY. It would help because you are decreasing your overall density by displacing more water, while still weighing the same. The same principle goes for avalanches. As the snow flows down the hill, the denser materials (such as rocks) will move to the bottom of the flowing snow pack (much like in water) and the less dense materials (such as trees) tend to move towards the top. The entire idea behind the avalanche air bag is to decrease the overall density of the person wearing it (when they activate the air bag) which will tend to move them towards the top of the snow pack. They may not be riding on the absolute top of the snow, but they will much much closer to the top of the snow pack than if they didn't have the air bag on, perhaps only partially buried. If they do happen to be fully buried, they will be closer to the top, which makes it much easier for rescue crews to dig them out (because they have less snow to remove). The air bag also serves as a means to create an air pocket near the head, giving a person who is buried more space around their head and more breathable air.
The whole idea isn't to use these bags as an excuse to go out and be reckless and ride in dangerous situations, but to improve your chances of survival in the event that you are caught in an avalanche.
Get the proper gear (transceiver, shovel, probe, and avalanche bag), practice with how to use, know the conditions, and avoid avalanche prone areas. If you need to cross an avalanche prone area, practice safe travel techniques.
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thegeneral
Active VIP Member
The premise behind these "balloons" is to prevent you from becoming buried. If you deploy the bag and you don't get strained through a stand of timber or dumped into a terrain trap, you have in the neighborhood of a 99% chance of NOT being buried.( i'm not a researcher, this was on the ABS website ) Maybe you should do a little research on these balloons.
Also as far as some of the posts on this not being proven in our industry. What part of Skiing or snowboarding is so different than sledding? Getting caught in an avalance is being caught in an avalanche. In one scenario you may or may not have a 600lb snowmobile tumbling with you.
I don't like to support my enemies but if sometimes they have better gear, I owe it to my family to use that gear.
rs and avalaches, so, I did dig personally 3 bodies out of avalances working together with red cross team. Poles didn't work, dogs didn't help. Only radar helped locating these 3 guys, or saying more accurate their remains. Snow gets as hard as stoyne when rolling down, and bodies trapped in that snow usually disintegrete.
I am not saying that to scare you, just stay awayfrom any areas where you may think any kind of loose snowpack exist. It will save your life, and these stupid balloons won't help you.
Well if you still want to spent money get a becon it helps to locate your body.[/QUOTE]
Also as far as some of the posts on this not being proven in our industry. What part of Skiing or snowboarding is so different than sledding? Getting caught in an avalance is being caught in an avalanche. In one scenario you may or may not have a 600lb snowmobile tumbling with you.
I don't like to support my enemies but if sometimes they have better gear, I owe it to my family to use that gear.
rs and avalaches, so, I did dig personally 3 bodies out of avalances working together with red cross team. Poles didn't work, dogs didn't help. Only radar helped locating these 3 guys, or saying more accurate their remains. Snow gets as hard as stoyne when rolling down, and bodies trapped in that snow usually disintegrete.
I am not saying that to scare you, just stay awayfrom any areas where you may think any kind of loose snowpack exist. It will save your life, and these stupid balloons won't help you.
Well if you still want to spent money get a becon it helps to locate your body.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are absolutly correct about these bags -theoretically they should decrease the averall density of the body that gives more chances to stay on top of the snow flow. I just wanted to say - when snow flow is going down, its not a simple laminar flow so, light objects do not nessesary stay on the top. Flow has a turbulent nature - so any object that got into it, moves up and down in kind of circular motion. Pattern that we used to see in the washing machine. These objects move regardless of their density, and heavy objects (stoynes, frozen mud, logs etc) got into that flow make destruction even worse.
Fact that person gets more air around his head is good, totally agree with you on that. Here you correct.
By the way have you heard any stories that persons wearing such bags sirvived avalanche?
My point is: instead of spending money on such devices people should try to understand nature. Which snow and meteorological conditions are favorable for trigging avalanches?, why and when they occur?, on which slopes (angle, north or south slopes)?, etc. It is an interesting science (IMXO).
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Wilk INStheWEST
Active VIP Member
Yes items will move up and down through the snow pack, but less dense items will always want to be higher up in the snow pack. It's science! I have not seen any one personally, but take a look at some research these companies have done where they have triggered avalanches to sweep away dummies. Those that have an air bag on were much more likely to not be fully buried. This would allow them to either self rescue, or at least survive because rescue efforts were much easier. Think of it this way. If you were a rescuer, and you had multiple victims one that was completely buried and one that was just below the surface and you could see a hand or the top of the air bag. Which one would you try to get at first. Obviously the one you have visual evidence of. Before you even got out the transceiver, you would be on your way to dig him out.
Sent a long time ago, from a Galaxy S5 far far away.
Yes, I agree with you chances to be rescued are slightly better.
About "research" that these company have done, hmmm, I am a bit sceptical, companies do such reseach to boost sales, they don't do any real science. There are couple of serious snow and ice research centers in Switserland, Norway or Denmark and scientist there are very sceptical about these "innovations".
I trust them more.
I thought about that problem.
For example a small self-inflating helium balloon inside of backpack might be a good solution. When person cought by an avalanche balloons goes up with a long rope attached to a person. In this case locating a person wouldn't be a big deal.
See the usual problem with any avalanche, area is usually too big, and no one knows where to search, at the same time every minute counts
For example a small self-inflating helium balloon inside of backpack might be a good solution. When person cought by an avalanche balloons goes up with a long rope attached to a person. In this case locating a person wouldn't be a big deal.
See the usual problem with any avalanche, area is usually too big, and no one knows where to search, at the same time every minute counts
Wilk INStheWEST
Active VIP Member
Funny, because it was a Swiss research institute that came up with the 97% positive outcome value. The CAC has also done its own reseach and now include airbags in their recommended gear...
Sent a long time ago, from a Galaxy S5 far far away.
A Bag WILL NOT bring you to the surface if you get caught in the run out zone. A guy on Boulder last season was caught in one and he managed to deploy his bag, well it didn't bring him to the surface, he was baried 3m under. It probably saved his life though, it deflated and created an air pocket for him. It took 20mins to dig him out and he was conscious the whole time. He was very lucky. A friend a few days prior on Boulder wasn't as lucky. These things are a last resort, if your in a Avalalanche that's cause you fawked up. Best thing to do is get educated and make your terrain choices according to conditions. Have a safe season everyone
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Norwegians tried developing a radar with an operator that can be towed behind a snowmobile, to search for barried bodies.
I personally tested one of their first prototype in Norway, and we found a snowmobile with a person on it, under 5 meters of snow. However, serial production of such radars haven't been started as far as I know.
Here a good link what to do, they also suggest airbags, though its haven't been proved to be a good solution.
I personally tested one of their first prototype in Norway, and we found a snowmobile with a person on it, under 5 meters of snow. However, serial production of such radars haven't been started as far as I know.
Here a good link what to do, they also suggest airbags, though its haven't been proved to be a good solution.
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A Bag WILL NOT bring you to the surface if you get caught in the run out zone. A guy on Boulder last season was caught in one and he managed to deploy his bag, well it didn't bring him to the surface, he was baried 3m under. It probably saved his life though, it deflated and created an air pocket for him. It took 20mins to dig him out and he was conscious the whole time. He was very lucky. A friend a few days prior on Boulder wasn't as lucky. These things are last resort, if your in a Avalalanche that's cause you fawked up. Best thing to do is get educated and make your terrain choices according to conditions. Have a safe season everyone
Well said Lilduke, learn more about area where you going to ride, and don't relay on these balloons.
Another link, that thing really helps to find bodies, but not alive victimes, it takes time to operate it.
http://www.google.ru/url?sa=t&rct=j...ftYOGBzONQMUWgQ&bvm=bv.77880786,d.bGQ&cad=rjt
http://www.google.ru/url?sa=t&rct=j...ftYOGBzONQMUWgQ&bvm=bv.77880786,d.bGQ&cad=rjt
Wilk INStheWEST
Active VIP Member
I'm not saying these are be all and end all of solutions for surviving an avalanche. Like lilduke said, you can still get buried, especially if in a terrain trap. But I'm going to be having one of these on my back, and in the event that I ever do happen to get caught in an avy, I want every possible advantage to survive, and to me my life is worth more than the $1000 it costs to buy one. I don't go out trying to tempt fate, just because I have an airbag on my back.
Sent a long time ago, from a Galaxy S5 far far away.
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