In the wake of the recent trajedies,

[smokindave]

I find it amusing that peeps feel the manufacturer, or the dealer should pay for the course for their
customers or the Clubs should discount their passes for the riders. Anybody other than me think that the riders should pay their way to protect themselves instead of relying on someone else to do it for them?

As much as l like the idea of dealers supplying AST course I also agree there isn't enough wiggle room when it comes to making a profit.
But for parts and riding gear the profit margins are huge.
Wouldn't it make sense to motivate people into getting certified for a discount on gear and or parts.
Like maybe 10% for AST 1 or 20% for AST 2.
We all as a group be Sledder,dealer and manufacturer need to work together to save our hobby and hopefully stop the government from coming up with some stupid new laws.
Ken you have been in this business for a long time,you must have some ideas to help make our sport safer...
Do you think my idea is way out there?
Cheers and be safe everyone!


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[snopro]

As much as l like the idea of dealers supplying AST course I also agree there isn't enough wiggle room when it comes to making a profit.
But for parts and riding gear the profit margins are huge.
Wouldn't it make sense to motivate people into getting certified for a discount on gear and or parts.
Like maybe 10% for AST 1 or 20% for AST 2.
We all as a group be Sledder,dealer and manufacturer need to work together to save our hobby and hopefully stop the government from coming up with some stupid new laws.
Ken you have been in this business for a long time,you must have some ideas to help make our sport safer...
Do you think my idea is way out there?
Cheers and be safe everyone!


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Sometimes I just don't get the sport anymore Dave. Alot of "me" people in it now. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great people in it as well. I am like everyone else, I hate government interference. I just don't have an answer for you how we get peeps to become more avalanche aware. You have to be interested enough in surviving to give yourself a chance? The excuses of I don't have time or it will never happen to me don't cut it. The older I get the more aware I get. My riding group shakes their heads at me because I have downsized the terrain I put myself at risk in. To me its a fantastic sport and its all about having a great experience and bringing it back home alive. Maybe as the younger guys mature they will get the same feeling? It may take a generation for everyone to get it? Getting back to equipment....I used to sell just above cost on avy equipment at the old store. Every store wants to make a profit but I felt selling safety equipment at an affordable price was an investment in my good friends and customers. Not every shop see's it that way unfortunately but hey I don't pay their bills. Lol.

 

[d mills]

Sometimes I just don't get the sport anymore Dave. Alot of "me" people in it now. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great people in it as well. I am like everyone else, I hate government interference. I just don't have an answer for you how we get peeps to become more avalanche aware. You have to be interested enough in surviving to give yourself a chance? The excuses of I don't have time or it will never happen to me don't cut it. The older I get the more aware I get. My riding group shakes their heads at me because I have downsized the terrain I put myself at risk in. To me its a fantastic sport and its all about having a great experience and bringing it back home alive. Maybe as the younger guys mature they will get the same feeling? It may take a generation for everyone to get it? Getting back to equipment....I used to sell just above cost on avy equipment at the old store. Every store wants to make a profit but I felt selling safety equipment at an affordable price was an investment in my good friends and customers. Not every shop see's it that way unfortunately but hey I don't pay their bills. Lol.

I don't have a lot to say on the subject as I'm no expert. I am a slide survivor though. (Above the snow,lots of **** ups,pm for details). Being part of the so called "younger gen" I see the good and the bad.

Good is a lot of my ever evolving riding group is trained. (Ast 1 starter I will concede). After my incident 4 years ago I definitely ride very different terrain out west. I'm probably the guy who will not venture into a most likely safe area just on perception.

Short. Very short are my hills in the hills now. Don't get me wrong I still love downhill kickers, long sidehills and big satisfying climbs. But I'm very very selective of my spots.

Having said that one of my selections could bite me one day. I don't know. Dig a pit. Probe the layers. Read the material. It's ever changing. Could still get me.

But looking back to when I was 14 (18 years ago) at my first Rocky Mountain snowmobile trip....I think it's getting a lot safer.


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[pipes]

I don't have a lot to say on the subject as I'm no expert. I am a slide survivor though. (Above the snow,lots of **** ups,pm for details). Being part of the so called "younger gen" I see the good and the bad.

Good is a lot of my ever evolving riding group is trained. (Ast 1 starter I will concede). After my incident 4 years ago I definitely ride very different terrain out west. I'm probably the guy who will not venture into a most likely safe area just on perception.

Short. Very short are my hills in the hills now. Don't get me wrong I still love downhill kickers, long sidehills and big satisfying climbs. But I'm very very selective of my spots.

Having said that one of my selections could bite me one day. I don't know. Dig a pit. Probe the layers. Read the material. It's ever changing. Could still get me.

But looking back to when I was 14 (18 years ago) at my first Rocky Mountain snowmobile trip....I think it's getting a lot safer.


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I have to agree with you. I'm no expert either. I have been fortunate enough not to get caught. I have brought down a couple of small avalanches but have been lucky enough to not get buried. And I say lucky because that's all it really was, was luck. I recall when I first started riding in the mountains I new absolutely nothing of avalanches, and I mean nothing, probably couldn't even spell the word. Back then the equipment was not as effective even if I would have know how to use it. The sport has grown 10 fold since I've started and sleds are more powerful than ever. Unfortunately the sport and sleds are evolving faster than the riders are. There are still those amongst us that feel that they know it all and that it will never happen to them. I have several years of mountain experience and Have taken my AST1, do I know everything there is to know about riding safely in the mountains,Definitely not. But I do know enough that if I don't pay enough attention to what mother nature is telling me I best listen to what others are saying.

It's forums like this that we all can glean a lot of extra knowledge from. Some of the Azzhat comments that are posted on here included. Let's keep this channel of learning open and maybe start being more civil towards each other.
Lets not forget those that have payed the ultimate price for the lessons that they have left us. Let's not disrespect them and their families by criticizing the mistakes that they may have made. Lets take the time to evaluate these unfortunate incidents and apply them to the decisions we make when we chose to ride in the mountains.
I for one would like to see a Memorial Thread on this site that only the Mods can post to. Pictures and names of our fallen comrades. A thread that we all can visit as a reminder.

 

[Barker]

wow sounds like you had a pretty basic AST1

I realize that it goes more into depth on the AST2

One of the biggest excuses that I heard from people, is " why waste a perfectly good sledding day/weekend. If I'm gonna drive all that way, I am gonna sled."

I had some newer riding partners that didn't get the level 1 and for years I told them to do it.. It basically came down for me to take the refresher to get their act together. They are glad they did though.

It's the "push" that was needed. i am glad I took the refresher, because of the new technology, and techniques. The course evolves also.

I find this a poor excuse.. Soul rides courses are small classes lots of one on one, and you go out riding in the field all day and class room sessions in the evening over some eats and a couple of red bulls!. This works so well. You stick me in a class room you might have my attention for a few hours, after that I'm not taking any thing else in.. I'm a hands on learner and learn by doing. These classes get you out and doing.
#soulrides!

 

[CUSO]

Soooooooo............just how many of the sledder avy deaths in the last 5 years were people that DIDN'T have training and the proper equipment. If memory serves me it was very few. I think we're barking up the wrong tree here.

It seems that many of the articles state that they were experienced, but not having any apparent training.... I have experience, have ridden 20 plus years and saw 3 small class 1 & 2 slides.

I have taken my AST 1 classroom course a few years back but have not taken the field session yet. The main reason is i get out the the mountains at most 4 times a year and its hard to take one of those weekends to do a field day and have the course line up with a day im there. Last year i only got out twice. Its always on the back of my mind but it never works out. Id say most of the guys i ride with have the course, and i do spend time looking on the internet at avalanches that have occurred and how they started
The best thing i do before every trip is watch some of those videos of guys getting buried and how fast it all happens. It reminds a guy how the most innocent of rides can be fatal.

From my riding partner's perspectives, the field study was 75% of their value for knowledge. Classroom was valuable, but a lot were yawning.

Guys? I think there is alot the dealers and the manufacturers can do to help and a lot do but really? Be responsible for yourself for gawds sake? Why wait for someone to hold your hand and give it to you for free? Go out and get the damn thing. We push you guys to buy beacons and probes and bags and shovels and you want the dealer to buy you a course as well? How much money do you think dealers are making on sleds? Lol. People need to start being responsible for their own lives and not rely on someone to do it for them. Just my rant for the day. Sorry for any hurt feelers.

I think the dealers have to work towards other things than what they can make profit on.. Sorry to say...somee dealers are looking quite fancy lately.... but if they could make a joint program to reduce the incidents, it would be beneficial to the sledding society, as a group.
I am saying that if there was a levy on all sleds sold that were going to be entering the backcountry, the dealers would be off the hook. Maybe the dealers should step ups and stand together to make this somewhat of a reality... as a whole before the government imposes it and regulates more, like closures.

It sure can, but I guarantee we won't like it if it happens. Government tends to be better with a sledge hammer than a scalpel. ie: designated trail systems only, no off trail riding, speed limits, horsepower limits. Unlike what some are promoting, we really don't want government to solve this for us.

WORD

I am in the same boat as you....I took my classroom course (just here in January....and at a Doo dealer to boot!....thanks Riverside!) but now to get the field class done is hard to get organized. I am sold on the importance of the training. Just the classroom training alone gave me insight of signs to look for and make a measurable decision. My lifestyle....I am lucky if I can get away once or twice a year. I realize, we need snow to complete level 2 but it would sure be convenient if there was a closer place than the hills of BC. Question to the Lori Zac's & others....and this is probably a stupid question....is there a way to complete the field session closer to home (Edmonton area?)

Good question Cat401
There is always time to learn. It would be in your benefit to make the time.
I am sure you can book a weekend to go sledding.. What's the difference? so you waste a day learning...
Field session is about snow study and digging, looking at terrain, looking at what the snow is doing, hands on study of the snow's characteristics... Is it sunny?Has the wind blown in the last 3 days where you are doing the study? how to be a responsible sledder in the backcountry, and scenarios of multiple searches, walking in 2 ft of snow to find something as small as a beacon for an hour... or a glove? was that the victim?

It has impact on your way of thinking.

 

[thump]

Sometimes I just don't get the sport anymore Dave. Alot of "me" people in it now. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great people in it as well. I am like everyone else, I hate government interference. I just don't have an answer for you how we get peeps to become more avalanche aware. You have to be interested enough in surviving to give yourself a chance? The excuses of I don't have time or it will never happen to me don't cut it. The older I get the more aware I get. My riding group shakes their heads at me because I have downsized the terrain I put myself at risk in. To me its a fantastic sport and its all about having a great experience and bringing it back home alive. Maybe as the younger guys mature they will get the same feeling? It may take a generation for everyone to get it? Getting back to equipment....I used to sell just above cost on avy equipment at the old store. Every store wants to make a profit but I felt selling safety equipment at an affordable price was an investment in my good friends and customers. Not every shop see's it that way unfortunately but hey I don't pay their bills. Lol.

It made me think back when you mentioned about the younger people maturing. I started taking my oldest son with me to the mountains when he was 10, he is 26 now and has a real respect for where we are. There are times when he will stop us and say I dont feel comfortable being here and point things out, so we move on to a different area. That alone makes me feel good in that he is thinking other than hitting that untouched slope. This is luckily my 29th year of mountain riding, I was involved in one slide in 1990 on the face of the hill climb in Allen Creek. Luckily for our group I was the only one on the hill at the time, the slide started about 3/4 of the way up the hill and slid all the way passed the bottom where the creek crosses. I caused the slide by sidehilling from left to right accross the hill. To this day I can still envision that exact moment when a crack in the snow opened in front of me, not something I am proud of but that moment is always in the back of my mind every time I head up the mountain. Do I think an AST course should be mandatory to mountain ride? At some point in time we may not have a choice, is that a bad thing? I dont think so, ask your loved ones what they think. Cost? Do you actually put a pricetag on your life? I personally would feel more comfortable riding(when conditions are not in favor) knowing that should someone be involved in an avalanche that most or everyone on the hill has some sort of AST training to help out. I know the training will not stop avalanches or deaths but it should lessen the chances of it happening. No different than going to your construction or oilfield worksite, one of the first things they want to see is your training tickets, just sayin.

 

[52weekbreak]

Lots of good comments and some advice helpful to me.

As I have mentioned before, I am not a hill guy and my mountain experience has to date been limited to the Kakwa area where I simply stay away from the hills. I want to experience other areas so now the time has come to be better informed. Being from the Edmonton area, I would like to extend each trip out as I want to spend less time on the road and more on the sport itself.

As information learned and not immediately applied does not generally stick well with most people, I think taking AST 1 course immediately followed by the AST 2 course and following up with a few days of sledding at the end would be a great format for me. The subject would be learned and applied thereby improving retention. The week or so this would take would be easier to accommodate time-wise for me and probably other prairie dwellers as well.

Does anyone provide, or is interested in offering, this sort of approach?

 

[Sheldon3@telus.net]

Unfortunately I don't believe "knowing why people aren't taking the course" will help a lot. You may solve some logistical issues, money and time issues and enrollment will go up which is fantastic and a definite improvement. People will still say no time, too expensive, too far away, etc.... I know people who don't wear a seatbelts. Why aren't they wearing a seatbelt? It's not because they don't know. Every time they see a cop they scramble for the seatbelt. It's just people.

Being denied access to hills for those who don't have training, avy and survival gear? Supposed to have boaters safety certificate on you to operate a boat. Is this the level we have to go too for sledding? A mandatory certificate and training?

 

[rightsideup]

Unfortunately I don't believe "knowing why people aren't taking the course" will help a lot. You may solve some logistical issues, money and time issues and enrollment will go up which is fantastic and a definite improvement. People will still say no time, too expensive, too far away, etc.... I know people who don't wear a seatbelts. Why aren't they wearing a seatbelt? It's not because they don't know. Every time they see a cop they scramble for the seatbelt. It's just people.

Being denied access to hills for those who don't have training, avy and survival gear? Supposed to have boaters safety certificate on you to operate a boat. Is this the level we have to go too for sledding? A mandatory certificate and training?

you know one comment I have never heard after people that take there AST 1 is that it was not worth it. There are many providers and I know many people and no one complains after the fact that rides the backcountry that there course was not beneficial. So take the course people you will not regret it.

 

[Lem Lamb]

Would be nice to walk into a cabin and see a map of areas that have been known to cause issues.

And in big print a clam stating that other areas pose a risk due to weather & conditions.

YouTube could be the tool if one of us was to ride the areas we know to point out the locations and info of many of the hills where things have gone south. Example could be tricky areas that each of us know from many years of riding.

Like someone said in the above post. Mediator only thread to add this to a memorial thread, with this hazard info of all 198 registered areas in BC. I'd have to check my book and re-count. Lucky to of covered many of them.

Time consuming yes, worth its weight in gold.

Pal Lem's 2 cents

 

[ferniesnow]

Would be nice to walk into a cabin and see a map of areas that have been known to cause issues.

Rec and Trails BC has maps at the trail head (under a kiosk) for avalanche terrain for most (I say most because I don't know if they have them all done at this point in time) of their registered trails in BC. They pass out small hand held maps at the sled shows and have been there to answer questions. Some of the trails (managed and unmanaged) are on private land and don't fall under the government mandate so no mapping of avalanche terrain has been done.

 

[AreWeThereYet]

If you were to have a map showing possible avalanche areas, and an avalanche occurs in a non posted area and someone is hurt or dies,.. I can see a lawsuit happening.

 

[moyiesledhead]

If you were to have a map showing possible avalanche areas, and an avalanche occurs in a non posted area and someone is hurt or dies,.. I can see a lawsuit happening.

That's exactly why we let the government supply them, with their name on them. Club's should never open themselves up to that kind of liability potential.

 

[Barker]

Would be nice to walk into a cabin and see a map of areas that have been known to cause issues.

And in big print a clam stating that other areas pose a risk due to weather & conditions.

YouTube could be the tool if one of us was to ride the areas we know to point out the locations and info of many of the hills where things have gone south. Example could be tricky areas that each of us know from many years of riding.

Like someone said in the above post. Mediator only thread to add this to a memorial thread, with this hazard info of all 198 registered areas in BC. I'd have to check my book and re-count. Lucky to of covered many of them.

Time consuming yes, worth its weight in gold.

Pal Lem's 2 cents

Come on, a map telling you problem areas?? Any slope with snow on it may be a problem area. The Avalanche bulletin tells some details about maybe which slopes may be a bigger problem at that time, and is up dated daily. This is just one tool you can use to come up with your own assessment of how to handle these problem areas.

 

[Lem Lamb]

Come on, a map telling you problem areas?? Any slope with snow on it may be a problem area. The Avalanche bulletin tells some details about maybe which slopes may be a bigger problem at that time, and is up dated daily. This is just one tool you can use to come up with your own assessment of how to handle these problem areas.

Yes, I'm sure the post I offered did mention "in big print a clam stating that other areas may pose a risk." Just a thought is all friends !

Extra wording could be added to prevent a law-suit or clam of responsibility by a legal law team "maybe." Just mentioning is all !

It was offered as my thought only, not a "you should do this" as it might not be wise to go this route as no club or organization needs a law suit against them, or injury/ fatality at worst.

Sorry to bring up any kind of thought of trying to assist fellow brothers and sisters at sport we like.

IMO only or 2 cents. Not sure which one works best.

Pal Lem as we all know there are many obstacles to climb. Glad to see many good ideas on this thread.

 

[Barker]

Yes, I'm sure the post I offered did mention "in big print a clam stating that other areas may pose a risk." Just a thought is all friends !

Extra wording could be added to prevent a law-suit or clam of responsibility by a legal law team "maybe." Just mentioning is all !

It was offered as my thought only, not a "you should do this" as it might not be wise to go this route as no club or organization needs a law suit against them, or injury/ fatality at worst.

Sorry to bring up any kind of thought of trying to assist fellow brothers and sisters at sport we like.

IMO only or 2 cents. Not sure which one works best.

Pal Lem as we all know there are many obstacles to climb. Glad to see many good ideas on this thread.

I get what you are saying. The problem is if you need a map or someone to show you what areas pose a risk or have in the past. You don't have enough knowledge of Avalanche terrain. So that stuff is not going to help.
If you need to read a sign that says fires may cause burns and your playing with fire, well there's a real good chance you don't know what your doing, and your going to get burned!

 

[SHREK1]

I get what you are saying. The problem is if you need a map or someone to show you what areas pose a risk or have in the past. You don't have enough knowledge of Avalanche terrain. So that stuff is not going to help.
If you need to read a sign that says fires may cause burns and your playing with fire, well there's a real good chance you don't know what your doing, and your going to get burned!

In all fairness that is what education is, every time you see a sign or something that makes you think, and someone learns something from it then it's done it's intent. It takes generations to change some habits and even then you have to keep pounding it in.

 

[Lem Lamb]

Yuppers as it was just a suggestion in the only a thought category.

We use too see snowmobile posters hanging on the walls of the old Revy cabin by the Snowmobile Safety Council that were indented to show pictures of what "could/ or not" happen if a person(s) were not paying attention to Mountain terrain in any area one would ride.

Sorry if I got things off rail as this was in no way or intention to de-rail this awesome thread of good people in any way.

Keep up the awesome chat that other can add to with their own suggestions, ideas, or common thoughts to advance better days a-head in the snowmobile world for all to enjoy.

Pal Lem from North America.

 

[niner]

Well had a sick feeling this morning. Went to check my avy bag cylinder after the last ride, wasn't too worried about it as I just had it filled in January. And it's empty. Pretty disappointed in myself for not checking it before the last ride.