Get Behind This People- Avy Card Idea - Everyone Please Read!

GasCan

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In hind sight of the recent events, and slides in recent years I have been doing a lot of reading, and a lot of thinking. Another post here that is asking clubs to support Avy training is what got me started on this idea, and I think this is a good idea so please read it before firing off or supporting it.

Of the dozen or so people I have ridden with this year, a few recently completed AST training while others have some formal training, good field skills, or old school experience. In addition to this are some folks I ride with that have had some formal training, but perhaps many years ago? While many of us ride in groups one never really knows who has what skills or what sense of conditions until you really probe them or worse; put those skills to the test. Although I try to encourage people to get trained in backcountry Avy skills, many are out there riding with folks who do not possess formal Avy training, and we all know that creates the potential for problems.

To me, the best promotion to address this issue starts right here in the popular forums where perhaps we could start a section regarding riding with those who are trained, and get a sticky thread within that section to suggest mountain riders promote riding only with those who have proof of formal AST training. This would ensure promotion that everyone in your riding group has an appropriate level of training when out there on the hills, and that they have all of the right knowledge to ride in avalanche territories and backcountry area's where slides are not only common, but prone to happen.

I don't want to come of sounding arrogant or narrow minded about this, but it's an extremely important topic and there are far too many people on the hills that do not practice this, and/or many that do not have full Avy skills. Many do not accertain all relevant snow conditions or details before pulling a hill, or riding a particular area and that needs to be done more. This has been evident of late where at least two forum users here on S&M have posted rants about people parked in serious terrain traps at the bottom of some popular hill climb areas, including warnings to those about riding certain hills/aspects with serious avalanche risk, or areas where it's actually prohibited. Quite often these warnings are going out to unskilled people who reply with the common "I know what I'm doing" response. Don't worry about me, just move on! Like WTF people?

Maybe if more people said they'd only ride the backcountry with those who can demonstrate or prove they have Avy Skills, we'd see less people pulling unstable areas or people who would avoid sitting parked in terrrain traps and runnout chutes while they spectate. It's just an idea, but forums and forum users would benefit from having a hill pull section with a sticky thread right at the top that speaks to this topic. Something that makes this topic more up front, a section that speaks to the risks and concerns about Avy's, and a section that promotes the topic so more people go out and get formally trained?


The second thing I think would better our community would be for those who have avalanche training to better demonstrate they have these pertinent skills so we know who's who when we're on the hills. This could be achieved by training centers like Zacs, Hangfire, Etc. to promote plastic cards instead of certificates and issue those cards when someone completes their AST-1/2 Avy training. On one side could be the persons name with the course outline that they have completed, and perhaps a date of completion so one knows their skills are fresh. It could also include an emergency number right on the card and a hole punched so it can be worn on a lanyard or attached to their sledding jacket. On the other side of the card could be some kind of slogan like " No Skills - No Riding" in my group".

If this type of slogan was out there and supported proudly, many more would get the required training knowing that others would not ride with them unless they had it? It's a great idea if you ask me, and I'd wear one with no problem.

I know many already foster that last sentiment where they will only ride with people who have skills and/or equipment, but that needs to be done more to ensure we all have Avy skill levels when riding in the hills and backcountry. Maybe if that section suggested for the forum had another sticky to further promote groups that will only ride with those who are trained we'd see it become more common place. The idea of the cards could then be fostered to support those groups who actually practice real world skills where they wear the cards on their jackets/packs when they're out there sledding to further promote it. Here's an idea for a card that I came up with and a slogan to promote a higher level of skills and expectations for sledding groups.

avy_front.jpg
avy-back.jpg


I know there are always going to be those who don't care, or say they don't need something like this, but I firmly believe that we as a community have to get smart about this stuff and I think this would be a great start. Zac's offers a certificate of training and I am sure the other training groups do the same. Maybe they can start printing laminated AST1/2 cards that backcountry folks can tag to their suits showing they have the skills, and I'm sure the CAC would also get behind this? The reverse side of the card could have an adopted logo that states something like "No Skills - No Riding" to help promote the cards and their acceptance of Avy training in our sport.

We all know how many people travel from places far and wide apart to get a couple weekends of sledding in at a popular area, and a great many (not all...but many) have no formal training whatsoever. Some just head to Golden rent a beacon, and hit the hills without a clue, while others might be half trained or simply need a bit more to become fully versed. That kinda stuff has got to stop, and the best way to promote this idea starts right here on the forums where quite a few do their research before jumping out to ride for the first time, or before a first visit to a mountain area.

Another good idea is for the clubs to get behind an idea like this and post similar signs at the trail heads and staging areas prompting people to get their card to show they have AVY training. Who knows, this could be the start of something new to promote more training and less burials/accidents. I think a card to be worn like a ski tag on each sledders jacket would better promote who has the knowledge and who doesn't. Got a card, you can ride with me anytime...don't have one, I'll point you in the direction to get a card and the right training to show your well versed in Avalanche awareness and search/recue. This would get out to the clubs, club riders and maybe those who don't belong to a club where eveyone could take notice of the important factors here. I also think a No Skills - No Ride card would really catch on within our sport if printed on the one side of the card and worn by the sled heads.

Chime in here people and show your support of this idea. If it's hammered in and catches on...perhaps the forum mods will start an appropriate section for this topic and a sticky to get this idea rolling on the card issuance by trainers. I know many who say they'll only ride with those who have the skills/training. Now lets show how important it is and maybe we can grow this idea. It all starts here and everyone knows that this "unsanctioned" community could make things better by having a common card showing who has Avy Training, and who doesn't?

Please show thanks for this post if you like this idea and lets get the mods to take notice of it's importance? We need a forum section for this, a sticky thread or two on real world training and it's importance to sledders, and someone to start with the cards! We need the mountain riders, trail riders, AST trainers, forums, and club behind this idea for it to work. Who's on board?
 

Turbofreak

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Now that is a very, very good idea. After all, all we can do is educate ourselves and others and I think this should be mandatory for anyone to be travelling in the backcountry. We can speculate and look back in hindsight at the most recent tragedies all we want but when it comes down to it really, the only variable anybody can control is preparedness and readiness. Mother Nature can strike at any time, we all know this. Great idea Gascan, maybe someone with some authority could present this to snowmobile associations and federations across BC and AB?
 

GasCan

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Great idea Gascan, maybe someone with some authority could present this to snowmobile associations and federations across BC and AB?

Already started on that avenue as I just emailed CAC, Zacs, Hangfire, ASA and the AB & BC associations. I'll leave it up to them to chime in here and forward this link onto other associations and perhaps government bodies etc since they have the ears already and know much that is going on behind the scenes.

Hopefully this idea gets somewhere!
 

CR500R

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I think you got a great idea here as well. I'll be the first to admit that I could use a refresher course as the last time I had any formal training was along time ago, and I'm going to be in line for a course this fall/winter and will be dragging a few friends and family with me. Even though I've been riding the BC mountains for the better part of 30 yrs and beleive I'm very well educated in the does and don'ts as well as how to read the terrain and conditions it's never to late for some up to date training. It would definitely be reassurring to see cards like this hanging off peoples backpacks, etc. like you mentioned.

Not to stray from your idea, but some what on the same topic, is last night I seen on the news the release of the new avalanche warning/rating system, hopefully we'll see this made into signs at trail heads, much like we see the forest fire hazard signs all over, as well I'd like to see this info posted permantly and updated daily on websites like this then people can't say I didn't know.
 

ajay

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Getting the training and certification should be made mandatory to ride the back country. This is a great idea and would also put a number to the qualified back country trained users. I for one have always had the gear but only had a couple of hour course beside a hotel in Revy back in '94, by no means qualified. I and my family riders WILL be getting training first chance I can.

Aj
 

99summitx

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I know some won't like this but I could see it going to you need a card(course) to rent or buy a mountain sled.
 

btcowboy

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I know some won't like this but I could see it going to you need a card(course) to rent or buy a mountain sled.

Renting I can see needing that as a requirement. Sale of a mountain sled I cant see happening. 1. The dealers dont really care about it except the cash from the sale. And 2 I have seen a lot of shorties out there this year, so you wouldnt be able to just limit it to mountain sleds

I think it is a great idea and would definately participate in it.
 

2manykids

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I know some won't like this but I could see it going to you need a card(course) to rent or buy a mountain sled.

Or at the trail head? Then you will see guys finding ways around it.
Best thing is to look out for your own butt and those in your group and if you see someone doing something daft let them know.
Then you end up with guys pulling attitude. It ends up going round and round.
Play smart , play safe to play again tomorrow
 

2manykids

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Renting I can see needing that as a requirement. Sale of a mountain sled I cant see happening. 1. The dealers dont really care about it except the cash from the sale. And 2 I have seen a lot of shorties out there this year, so you wouldnt be able to just limit it to mountain sleds

I think it is a great idea and would definately participate in it.

Agreed you can not limmit these things to just mountain sleds. How many times do you hear of fence lines or ditches that catch guys.
 

shiftycliffy

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I agree with you totaly here gas can but the only problem some of us have is getting the training done in our area.I no thats not an excuse but there are no AVY courses in these parts. I try to learn as much as I can on the internet and practice hands on with the flat landers I ride with.In most cases we ride with guys who are very knowledgable in AVY but still I would like to learn more.I would have no problem driving 4 hours for a course, but the way it is now its 12 to 14. To make a long story short I think we will stay away from the shoots and big pulls and maybe stay closer to the tree s.
 

snoqueen

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GasCan....as I was reading your post it was like a light bulb went on for me!! Why didn't I think of this?? You have AN AWESOME idea here. I think all of us that have completed our AST 1 course recently have to get the course providers to provide this for us!! Not only are we promoting that we have the training, it will encourage others to get it then too, I think. Kind of like having the gear, everyone that sees others using/wearing the gear will want to get it as well. I really like the slogan too, very catchy. No Skills=No Riding (in My Group). Keep us informed to what the providers think. I'm sure they will all think this is a great idea to promote their courses!!
 

JoHNI_T

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like Maxwell said just because ya sat through the course, it does not make people make the right decisions....

yes the course and every bit of knowledge helps but by no means are you experienced beacause of a weekend long course...



again great thought GasCan every bit helps,, but no more FEE's please lol...
 

GasCan

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Good point Shifty, and while this post is not intended to exclude people or single out groups that are challenged by logistics or by costs involved, it remains a smart idea. Hangfire offers a weekend workshop in Golden with one day classroom and the next day in field and on the hills, and this is easily completed by anyone wanting a weekend get away and training course in one shot.

Others like Zac's Tracs will do the same but often hit the road with their classroom training as well, and I believe they cover AB, BC, SK, MB, Yukon and a few US States. Maybe check their respective websites to see the scheduling. Both sites are linked above, and you can also check with your local clubs to see if they offers incentives or reimbursement on classes taken. Many do!

I know many people from Saskatchewan and Manitoba ride the hills west of here, and I think anyone who's going to should really try and get a full course in whether in be a weekend deal or a single part here and there. Maybe Lori (Zac's) and Aaron (Hangfire) can chime in here later and fill in a few details for us.

I applaud anyone for trying to get smart with this stuff and know many have more knowledge than I, but I'm always eager to ride with those who practice what they learn and I always look to learn from those. Common sense always has a place in any motorized sport. Some will use it, some will overlook it, but we should all have a good sense of the conditions and not just go by what we read on a given site or ride an area just because others are there, or were there. Conditions and regions change all the time and one needs to be able to read the signs when they're out there in the snow, and on the hills.

It might just save your own life someday, or make you a hero by knowing how to save someone else's!
 

gm3d

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GASCAN for Prime Minister! No really. This is a great idea. Positive think, and not just negative BS. Sorry GASCAN PM is out for you as you have WAY to much common sense to be a politician! Have a good one!:)
 

ferniesnow

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good idea. but i know some people with avalanche training i still dont want to be near


Isn't that the truth!!

GasCan, that is a good idea! If somehow it could start a fashion trend (like Oakley, 509's, carbon fibre, or the remember 8 decal in SE BC, ToBe) or something that would be catchy and showy to display, it might just work.

I'm thinking there would have to be one issuing organization, possibly the CAC, with the applicable paper work coming from courses like Zac's, HangFire, Amber, etc. The CAC could possibly use it as a fund raiser. How's that you ask? Reduce the cost of the AST1 course by $25, send the info to the CAC, and for $30 they issue the snazzy card or decal, ($5 for handling and the intial $25 into their kitty)

I for one have no qualms about paying for this kind of service and if over the years the majority jump on the band wagon then that would be great. for those that wouldn't participate well...you can lead a horse to water but.....and the bonus would be that we as sledders would be considered pro-active and helping to regulate the sport that we all so love.

Keep it going GasCan!!
 

giddyup

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that is a great idea, i would carry my card in my abs pack proudly, but i think alot of the riders in the revy slide had the training and expreriance that you want in the backcountry and we know everyone was in the wrong spot and the wrong time. i think a cert card would be a great idea but i have been to fernie and seen many people riding the trails up to wranglers cabin and other tail areas, they are out for a trail ride not off trail should they get the training?? i think so,
there are many trails that put people in dangerous spot with out them knowing, i have driven many trails in and spent some time looking around, there could be slides over some trails as well. just a thought

i like the idea of people having cert cards, i think everyone could benifet from a class every now and then, i personaly take the class room session of the ast1 every year from lori. i also try and drag everyperson i know out to them i enjoy getting out with a group to practise my skills.
great post

giddyup
 
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