cat ski, ski hill and heli ski operators data collection??!?!?!?!?!

[clarkydubs]

i have a question. how come the data that ski hills, cat ski and heli ski operators collect during the course of the winter isnt available to the public? it would make forcasting in your area SO much easier. more detailed and accurate findings. i mean, i ride 1 place that is literally in 3 different regions according to the cac. a buddie said that the info was kept secret for some crazy reason?!?!?!?! WTF!!!!!!!
any of you guys know why it is so secret? i mean with all the cryiing the public does about sledders dieing in avalanches, you would think this info should be readily available to anyone who wants it?


if i could know selkirk wilderness', baldfaces, and snowaters findings, i would literally be bringing a cheat sheet to a final exam.

 

[maxwell]

Wiggle miester and cmh post that info from there weatherstations on there websites. Unless you are talking about the actual information they collect from snowpits etc not just snow fall.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9780 using Tapatalk

 

[clarkydubs]

ya im talking about the info they gather from snow pits, actually riding slopes, ie aspect, angle what they saw.....all the operators share the information amongunst the selves, why not the public?!?!?!

 

[HRT Offroad]

i have a question. how come the data that ski hills, cat ski and heli ski operators collect during the course of the winter isnt available to the public? it would make forcasting in your area SO much easier. more detailed and accurate findings. i mean, i ride 1 place that is literally in 3 different regions according to the cac. a buddie said that the info was kept secret for some crazy reason?!?!?!?! WTF!!!!!!!
any of you guys know why it is so secret? i mean with all the cryiing the public does about sledders dieing in avalanches, you would think this info should be readily available to anyone who wants it?


if i could know selkirk wilderness', baldfaces, and snowaters findings, i would literally be bringing a cheat sheet to a final exam.

A good portion of this information is shared with the CAC, and to the best of my knowledge the compilation of data is used to produce the CAC bulletins.

 

[JaySimon]

I could only imagine the heli ski reports that would come out if these were made public. "Avy risk is ultra mega super extreme, please do not come to our tenure"

 

[ratatatat]

The information is shared between professional operations and the cac through a system called infoex. This is the primary source for data the cac uses to produce the public bulletin. All users of this system have to meet certain standards to ensure the information is accurate and meets professional standards for data collection. All users sign a confidentiality agreement to ensure there is no misuse of the data. The concern is press and public may misinterpret the information due to a lack of training and understanding of professional standards and this could lead to problems for the operators. If this were to happen then operators would not be willing to share their data. What the public (you) needs is available through the cac bulletins.

 

[Depsnolvr]

The above post is absolutely correct.

I have an idea.........Why does the sled community not try to better collect and share quality data from all the areas we ride. Instead of saying "dude there was four feet of pow" we could state temperatures, measured amount of storm snow, and test results on stated aspects and elevations........and share it amongst ourselves ? Gathering effective info does require some training bit there nothing like getting your own data

 

[ferniesnow]

The information is shared between professional operations and the cac through a system called infoex. This is the primary source for data the cac uses to produce the public bulletin. All users of this system have to meet certain standards to ensure the information is accurate and meets professional standards for data collection. All users sign a confidentiality agreement to ensure there is no misuse of the data. The concern is press and public may misinterpret the information due to a lack of training and understanding of professional standards and this could lead to problems for the operators. If this were to happen then operators would not be willing to share their data. What the public (you) needs is available through the cac bulletins.

I agree with Curtis and ratatatat on this. I never thought for a moment that the facts would not be reported as such and not twisted for various other reasons. These professionals gather the data and forward what they find. The CAC then uses the data to put it into an understanding language for us.

In the South Rockies, there are 3 operators, Fernie Alpine Resort, Island Lake Lodge, and Fernie Wilderness Adventures all more or less located in the Lizard Range covering maybe 300 sq kilometres. That was the only information the area received for the bulletins. The South Rockies is big and diversified with regards to snow conditions.

The CAC, with money from the Fed's, hired a field team to cover the area for a little more specific information/data. A local Fernie dude with lots of avi training and back-country experience along with a UofC snow scientist(?) toured the area on sleds for 4 days a week throughout the winter gathering information on the snow pack. They had a truck, trailer and two sleds. I've heard that maybe next year they will have an office! In the south (Flathead, Harvey and the Ram), in the east through the Corbin area and the Notch and the Alexander area, around Fernie in the Three Sister's area and Sulphur Creek, and into the north with most of the basins in the Elkford area. They dug pits, inspected some of the avalanches, and generally had a pretty good feel for the area. Some of the local skiers, boarders, and sledders, sent in pictures and information and generally kept in touch with the team through the winter providing more information.

The CAC used the additional information for their reports. A great venture to provide our sector more information. Now to get riders to use it and respect it.

 

[snopro]

only problem is ... most sledders dont know how to dig a pit or use their trancievers

I disagree Willy. Perhaps 5-7 years ago that would be an accurate statement. What i do know is ......most sledders will not dig a pit. Why? Takes to much time. The ground covered by a sledder in a few hours is way more than a skier. They would have to dig a pit 7-8 times a day.

 

[snopro]

Do you sit at the bottom of the hill and ask all the red platers if they are familiar with there tranceivers?

 

[HELISKI.com]

I think there is an opportunity here to foster better cooperation and coexistence between sledders and heliskiing companies. What if the heliskiing operators freely shared data in return for sledders helping to self-police protected tenures?

I'm a booking agent, and I work with all of the heliskiing operators in BC. There is friction between heliskiing operators and sledders, and that is probably better discussed in another dedicated post. I assume the same is true for catskiing operators. I am sure there are sledder perspectives that I don't understand or appreciate. For that I apologize in advance. And I feel compelled to add that it's not all about poaching pow. Although their clients are paying over $1K/day, for which they expect untracked. Skiers have broken legs skiing into a frozen sled track.

It seems to me that both sledders and heliskiing operators will benefit from fewer avalanche accidents. Those deaths are tragic, especially when preventable. Avalanche deaths also get lots of press, and ultimately are bad for business.

I would like to see the two groups cooperate. How about this as a first step? If sledders could help discourage other sledders from using the heliski tenures, the heliski operators could share avi data freely.

I don't represent the heliskiing community, but HeliCat Canada would be a good place to start. Are there sledder organizations that could broker such an arrangement?

Also, how about avi info. flowing the other direction? Do sledders have a channel to share slide information with other sledders, backcountry skiers, heliski and catski operators?

I look forward to your thoughts.
Thanks,
tj

 

[catinthehat]

I think there is an opportunity here to foster better cooperation and coexistence between sledders and heliskiing companies. What if the heliskiing operators freely shared data in return for sledders helping to self-police protected tenures?

I'm a booking agent, and I work with all of the heliskiing operators in BC. There is friction between heliskiing operators and sledders, and that is probably better discussed in another dedicated post. I assume the same is true for catskiing operators. I am sure there are sledder perspectives that I don't understand or appreciate. For that I apologize in advance. And I feel compelled to add that it's not all about poaching pow. Although their clients are paying over $1K/day, for which they expect untracked. Skiers have broken legs skiing into a frozen sled track.

It seems to me that both sledders and heliskiing operators will benefit from fewer avalanche accidents. Those deaths are tragic, especially when preventable. Avalanche deaths also get lots of press, and ultimately are bad for business.

I would like to see the two groups cooperate. How about this as a first step? If sledders could help discourage other sledders from using the heliski tenures, the heliski operators could share avi data freely.

I don't represent the heliskiing community, but HeliCat Canada would be a good place to start. Are there sledder organizations that could broker such an arrangement?

Also, how about avi info. flowing the other direction? Do sledders have a channel to share slide information with other sledders, backcountry skiers, heliski and catski operators?

I look forward to your thoughts.
Thanks,
tj

What a great idea, too bad it won't work.
The first obstacle to overcome is the lack of respect we as sledders get from the industries you represent. They come into an area that we have used for decades and lobby gov't to have us banned so they can make tons of money off crown land that is supposed to be available for all.
I don't mean to tar them all with the same brush as some actually try to get along with the sledding public. There are bad apples on both sides of the basket however and I doubt that peer pressure will ever be enough to change behaviour or attitudes. (hasn't worked yet and we have tried). IMHO

 

[ferniesnow]

I'm pretty sure that in Canada, the heliski operations share their information with the CAC. It would only make sense that as much information as possible would be directed to the forecasters to produce the bulletins. This information sharing is done on a daily basis.

I have heard that the information is available if you subscribe to the operation (i.e. if a backcountry skier were to plan a trip near a help operation they could get the information by subscribing to a website. No reason why sledders couldn't doo the same thing).

 

[snopro]

nope dont really care i know the ppl with me will have the experiance
thats what matters

Same thing with my group. We all got each others back and thats all that counts.

 

[maxwell]

heli ski operators are in it for the money !! and so r u . we r in it cuz we love our sport !! has nothing to do with money its the rush and getting out in the hills ... ps im a skier too and have heli skied i like to sled the best and to go where i like .......... we will dig our pits and u can keep yer info .

good thing we have our most highly educated well spoken members speaking for us. plz stop YER TALKIN.

 

[Modman]

I disagree Willy. Perhaps 5-7 years ago that would be an accurate statement. What i do know is ......most sledders will not dig a pit. Why? Takes to much time. The ground covered by a sledder in a few hours is way more than a skier. They would have to dig a pit 7-8 times a day.

I agree with the first part of your statement and disagree with the last part. We dig a pit often when we are out (at least once daily typically), usually in a spot that represents "average" riding for the day (and by average I mean slope aspect or elevation, not down to the finite details, but usually I have seen some general similarities regionally). We use it to gauge the bulletin accuracy for the area (usually close to same snow parameters) and then tailor riding to the general comments in the bulletin. I.e. if the bulletin lists a PWL down at 1 m and storm snow above it etc etc, we dig a pit and investigate/confirm this (again, usually confirms). If the avy bulletin says based on these parameters, stay off SE facing aspects etc etc, then we are pretty confident in the bulletin and adhere to it.

Sometimes the snow conditions don't match up just due to geographics and variability, and then you have to be a little more on your toes after digging your pit and go with what the snow tells you. The lazy excuse (and make no mistake, that's all it is...being cocky and lazy) for not digging a pit on the basis that sledders cover too much ground to do it, is uber-weak at best IMO, and I know lots of sledders use this excuse. Most guys just don't want to cut into riding time, the "we cover too much ground" excuse is just convienient. Once you've done a few, its only takes 15 mins to do.

Anyone who has taken avy training can tell you each area can be different, that's easy, but learning if the area has a rain crust (for example) at 5000 ft and then applying that knowledge to how the rain crust will react on a south face vs a north face with less solar radiation is time well spent IMO. Digging a pit will give you more info that what you had at the truck. Nobody I have ever met has been able to simply eyeball a slope and tell me if it will slide or not. Will a pit or a bulletin tell you everything about every hill you are riding on/up/below that day? of course not, but it does give you some general ideas that can help you make informed decisions.

 

[clarkydubs]

wow, great posts guys and gals. you answered a lot of questions that i had so thanks.....and thanks heli ski for posting up as well... personally i agree with what heli ski has to say. we do need to work together. however, the heli ski mentality of "stay the hell outta our tenure" is pretty common, i can understand why for sure. but the thing i dont understand is that they have a fricken helicopter, you cant tell me that sleds have wrecked every last little bit of the tenure?!?!
now lets say the sledder and ski communities do start to cooperate. how about letting us use some of the less desirable parts of the tenure, or letting us use part till a certain time of year, then openiing other parts for later?
it just seems to me that the ski community as a whole is looking for too much compromise from the sled community, it has to be more give and take in my eyes. then maybe you will start to see the cooperation.

 

[HELISKI.com]

heli ski operators are in it for the money !! and so r u . we r in it cuz we love our sport !! has nothing to do with money its the rush and getting out in the hills ... ps im a skier too and have heli skied i like to sled the best and to go where i like .......... we will dig our pits and u can keep yer info .

Thanks for the input. I think you point out a couple of common misconceptions. I don't think you can find a group more passionate about 'the rush and getting out in the hills' than heliski owners, guides, operators and clients. As for making money, most operators are former or current guides that have figured out a way to make a living at doing what they love. And it's not that profitable, perhaps proving the point. That is especially true of the guides. Like someone else correctly pointed out, there are exceptions. But I think it's going to be more productive to look for, and build on the similarities and mutual respect among skiers and sledders. You?

 

[dinlaroche]

The information is shared between professional operations and the cac through a system called infoex. This is the primary source for data the cac uses to produce the public bulletin. All users of this system have to meet certain standards to ensure the information is accurate and meets professional standards for data collection. All users sign a confidentiality agreement to ensure there is no misuse of the data. The concern is press and public may misinterpret the information due to a lack of training and understanding of professional standards and this could lead to problems for the operators. If this were to happen then operators would not be willing to share their data. What the public (you) needs is available through the cac bulletins.

see above, read the avalanche forecasts and support the CAC is the best thing that we can do. The more support the CAC has, the more it will grow and the higher quality forecasts that we will receive from them. At the end of the day though, the forecasts are a guideline and you need to educate yourself on what conditions are in your area (dig your own pits and make your own observations).

You can also subscribe to ACMG mountain conditions reports (Association of Canadian Mountain Guides), but for the most part they tend to be more ice climbing oriented and rockies (national parks) as the locations of a lot of their reporting.

 

[HELISKI.com]

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