Caribou Recovery Strategy Response

[ZRrrr]

Here we go again.....this debate over predation being the biggest cause of the Caribous decline is false....IT IS NOT THE WOLVES! As much as environmentalists have run to the Caribou as the poster child for climate change, your government has tun to the wolves (and recreational access) as their poster child to the Caribou issue.

Alberta Conservation did study few years back that showed total loss to predation at 0.1%.
US Fish and Wildlife did a similar study with wolves only and it was 0.3%.

Certainly less than what what specific people would have you believe. Politically it looks great to urban masses that your government is doing something to protect the Caribou through culls and closing access. What your government won't admit to is the science backing other threats to the Caribou populations. That would have a HUGE impact on our economy and any of our political parties interest in holding office.

It's about distraction and public perception. Predation and limiting recreational access are being used as one in the same. We all need to stop picking sides and work together to address the real issues.

 

[catinthehat]

Here we go again.....this debate over predation being the biggest cause of the Caribous decline is false....IT IS NOT THE WOLVES! As much as environmentalists have run to the Caribou as the poster child for climate change, your government has tun to the wolves (and recreational access) as their poster child to the Caribou issue.

Alberta Conservation did study few years back that showed total loss to predation at 0.1%.
US Fish and Wildlife did a similar study with wolves only and it was 0.3%.

Certainly less than what what specific people would have you believe. Politically it looks great to urban masses that your government is doing something to protect the Caribou through culls and closing access. What your government won't admit to is the science backing other threats to the Caribou populations. That would have a HUGE impact on our economy and any of our political parties interest in holding office.

It's about distraction and public perception. Predation and limiting recreational access are being used as one in the same. We all need to stop picking sides and work together to address the real issues.

What is your interpretation of what the real issue is then? You seem to hint at there being some other great cause of Caribou mortality instead of predation. Maybe you could enlighten us with your wisdom.

 

[X-it]

I would just love to see caribou numbers increase in the very few areas that snowmobiling and caribou comingle. The torpy and sande, Kakwa, Milage. The study is flawed, I think actual facts verses interpretations is the best way. Who knows maybe snowmobiling actually helps their numbers...we will never know if this is the case because all the stats in our favor have been removed. Predation is the biggest reason for decline in my opinion, of coarse they even try and blame snowmobiling cause this as well....easy access for wolves. I say easier access for caribou to food following our tracks ...again no one will ever know for sure because of one damed flawed study. Hope you are happy you jackass that did this study when the caribou are all gone.

 

[drew562]

If its predation I would suspect this 25 day snowless January will help wolves to finish them off. They say they used are tracks to get around. With the alpine being cement on most of BC one would guess the wolves have the upper hand this winter

 

[moyiesledhead]

Here we go again.....this debate over predation being the biggest cause of the Caribous decline is false....IT IS NOT THE WOLVES!

Please! Enlighten us!

 

[moyiesledhead]

They say they used are tracks to get around.

Leaf licker propaganda, and a few "select" government biologists with an agenda. No credible biologist has ever said that. What they do say is predators "could" use our tracks to access Caribou. Speculation rather than science. Of course they "could".....but they don't. They have no reason to leave the smorgasbord of ungulates in the valley bottom on the off chance of finding a Caribou at higher elevation. Mountain Caribou don't die in the winter, they get eaten in the summer/fall. Ton's of evidence to support that.

I have no idea what the hell ZRrrr is going on about. Predation is in fact the primary cause of the decline in Mountain Caribou populations.....mostly brought on by past logging practices.

 

[ZRrrr]

Mr. Moyiesledhead, if I read your posts correctly it seem you do have some understanding the situation. However, you still point to wolves as the CAUSE. Wolves are the RESULT, they are not the cause.

All the science has pointed one direct finger at the CAUSE, fragmentation and destruction of boreal forest due to unmanaged industrial development by forestry, oil and gas. Don't fix the cause......end result will continue to always be the same.

Wolves and Caribou existed together for many, many years without issue. Increased human presence has shown to be the real problem through increased stress and poorer nutrition. Of course higher human presence is needed for industrial development. Right from Environment Canada's draft Caribou Recovery Plan:

"Boreal caribou are at greater risk of survival and tend to avoid associated industrial infrastructure such as roads, timber harvest cut-blocks, pipelines, oil and gas well sites, and geophysical exploration lines up to 500m. These developments reduce the suitability of adjacent habitat, increase rates of predation, increase access to the land for hunting opportunities and can act as barriers to boreal caribou movement."

This plan does also go on to say; "Across most of their distribution, human-induced habitat alterations have caused an imbalance in predator-prey relationships resulting in unnaturally high predation rates. This is the major factor affecting boreal Caribou populations."

So in breath the government says it's human induced industrail development, then go on to blame wolf predation. Interesting isn't it.

Recent studies show that Caribou only make up 10% of a wolves diet! In reality, the cull of a 1000 wolves will save how many Caribou....100, 200, 300? Without addressing the CAUSE, the end result is going to continue on the same path. So how many Caribou do the lives of 1000 or more wolves really save....50, 75, 100? What are the long term effects of 1000's less wolves? Places like Cranbrook are dealing with an overpopulation of deer. Could culling wolves be a part of that, and the associated property damage, vehicular damage and dare I say medical costs/possible loss of human life!?

Point being here that we should all be on the same page when it comes to dealing with government and the right to recreational access. Use the science to stop blaming wolves and that very science will have to stop blaming recreational users! Certainly when the wolf cull proves to have little to no long term impact on dwindling Caribou numbers, our right to recreational access will be long, long gone.

 

[RevyG]

Mr. Moyiesledhead, if I read your posts correctly it seem you do have some understanding the situation. However, you still point to wolves as the CAUSE. Wolves are the RESULT, they are not the cause.

All the science has pointed one direct finger at the CAUSE, fragmentation and destruction of boreal forest due to unmanaged industrial development by forestry, oil and gas. Don't fix the cause......end result will continue to always be the same.

Wolves and Caribou existed together for many, many years without issue. Increased human presence has shown to be the real problem through increased stress and poorer nutrition. Of course higher human presence is needed for industrial development. Right from Environment Canada's draft Caribou Recovery Plan:

"Boreal caribou are at greater risk of survival and tend to avoid associated industrial infrastructure such as roads, timber harvest cut-blocks, pipelines, oil and gas well sites, and geophysical exploration lines up to 500m. These developments reduce the suitability of adjacent habitat, increase rates of predation, increase access to the land for hunting opportunities and can act as barriers to boreal caribou movement."

This plan does also go on to say; "Across most of their distribution, human-induced habitat alterations have caused an imbalance in predator-prey relationships resulting in unnaturally high predation rates. This is the major factor affecting boreal Caribou populations."

So in breath the government says it's human induced industrail development, then go on to blame wolf predation. Interesting isn't it.

Recent studies show that Caribou only make up 10% of a wolves diet! In reality, the cull of a 1000 wolves will save how many Caribou....100, 200, 300? Without addressing the CAUSE, the end result is going to continue on the same path. So how many Caribou do the lives of 1000 or more wolves really save....50, 75, 100? What are the long term effects of 1000's less wolves? Places like Cranbrook are dealing with an overpopulation of deer. Could culling wolves be a part of that, and the associated property damage, vehicular damage and dare I say medical costs/possible loss of human life!?

Point being here that we should all be on the same page when it comes to dealing with government and the right to recreational access. Use the science to stop blaming wolves and that very science will have to stop blaming recreational users! Certainly when the wolf cull proves to have little to no long term impact on dwindling Caribou numbers, our right to recreational access will be long, long gone.

Here it is again, I know I have said this before, I have some first had knowlage of this ( girlfriend works for ministry of forests) we need one association! We look like fools with two associations, how can we expect any level of government to take us seriously when we can not even play nice with each other. We NEED a united front. Am I the only one who thinks the old guard needs to stop acting like kids and work this out and get back on the same page and fight these SOB's.

 

[X-it]

What i would like to see is a no fly zone on the very few areas they left us where we sled with the caribou, I think they would buy into it as well. 10 years down the road this would be proof if snowmobiling really effects the numbers...or helicopters are the primary cause for caribou decline. I have never seen a wolf or a wolf track in these areas. But i have seen 2 wolves in a no sled area in prime caribou habitat. One more thing...cougar they are moving into areas where i thought how can they take down the moose here, until caribou came to mind.

 

[MOMMA]

Here it is again, I know I have said this before, I have some first had knowlage of this ( girlfriend works for ministry of forests) we need one association! We look like fools with two associations, how can we expect any level of government to take us seriously when we can not even play nice with each other. We NEED a united front. Am I the only one who thinks the old guard needs to stop acting like kids and work this out and get back on the same page and fight these SOB's.

We are working together nicely right now. I value our relationship with the BCSF and I look forward to acting together on issues such as this one. Like I've said before. It's a new day. Mutual respect and a common vision forward are facilitating a strong unified voice.

Trish Drinkle
President of the Association of British Columbia Snowmobile Clubs

 

[moyiesledhead]

Mr. Moyiesledhead, if I read your posts correctly it seem you do have some understanding the situation. However, you still point to wolves as the CAUSE. Wolves are the RESULT, they are not the cause.

All the science has pointed one direct finger at the CAUSE, fragmentation and destruction of boreal forest due to unmanaged industrial development by forestry, oil and gas. Don't fix the cause......end result will continue to always be the same.

Wolves and Caribou existed together for many, many years without issue. Increased human presence has shown to be the real problem through increased stress and poorer nutrition. Of course higher human presence is needed for industrial development. Right from Environment Canada's draft Caribou Recovery Plan:

"Boreal caribou are at greater risk of survival and tend to avoid associated industrial infrastructure such as roads, timber harvest cut-blocks, pipelines, oil and gas well sites, and geophysical exploration lines up to 500m. These developments reduce the suitability of adjacent habitat, increase rates of predation, increase access to the land for hunting opportunities and can act as barriers to boreal caribou movement."

This plan does also go on to say; "Across most of their distribution, human-induced habitat alterations have caused an imbalance in predator-prey relationships resulting in unnaturally high predation rates. This is the major factor affecting boreal Caribou populations."

So in breath the government says it's human induced industrail development, then go on to blame wolf predation. Interesting isn't it.

Recent studies show that Caribou only make up 10% of a wolves diet! In reality, the cull of a 1000 wolves will save how many Caribou....100, 200, 300? Without addressing the CAUSE, the end result is going to continue on the same path. So how many Caribou do the lives of 1000 or more wolves really save....50, 75, 100? What are the long term effects of 1000's less wolves? Places like Cranbrook are dealing with an overpopulation of deer. Could culling wolves be a part of that, and the associated property damage, vehicular damage and dare I say medical costs/possible loss of human life!?

Point being here that we should all be on the same page when it comes to dealing with government and the right to recreational access. Use the science to stop blaming wolves and that very science will have to stop blaming recreational users! Certainly when the wolf cull proves to have little to no long term impact on dwindling Caribou numbers, our right to recreational access will be long, long gone.

Yup, about 20 years worth of experience I never really wanted. If only I'd known what I was getting myself into!

Respectfully.....you're quoting research on Boreal Caribou. Mountain Caribou are a different situation. Yes, industrial activity is what has allowed predation to reduce Mountain Caribou populations, but that has for the most part been addressed in BC in the last 10 years. Problem is....it'll take 80 to 100 years to correct the damage that's been done. The Mountain Caribou ecotype require old growth forest to live the way they've learned to avoid predators, and for the food they've learned to eat. Those don't grow overnight. With the present population numbers and even the 10 to 20 year projections for recovery they're not in any danger of starving to death, but in the meantime without us addressing predator mortality Mountain Caribou won't stand a chance. Wolves and Mountain Caribou did not exist together for many years without issue. Mountain Caribou habitat by it's very nature maintained spacial separation between predator and prey until mankind disturbed it. And it's not just Wolves. Depending on which population we're talking about it can also be Cougar, Bear, and Wolverine.

Increased human presence (recreational that is) has not been shown to be the real problem with Mountain Caribou through increased stress and poor nutrition. In fact the provincial Mountain Caribou science team all agree that predation....yes enabled by industrial activity....is the immediate problem. Recreational disturbance becomes something that they want to manage under the Precautionary Principle. The Precautionary Principle only comes into play when there is a profound lack of scientific evidence. The trouble with this premise in this case is...the lack of scientific evidence is not based on a lack of research. Mountain Caribou are one of the most studied animals on the planet. It is not management based on science, no matter what the environmental organizations would have us believe.

 

[RevyG]

We are working together nicely right now. I value our relationship with the BCSF and I look forward to acting together on issues such as this one. Like I've said before. It's a new day. Mutual respect and a common vision forward are facilitating a strong unified voice.

Trish Drinkle
President of the Association of British Columbia Snowmobile Clubs

still two clubs, friends or not. I am not making it up,( like most the research)government laugh at us. We need to be one voice to deal with both levels of government. If you think I am wrong I would like to hear from you, the president, how having two associations when dealing with Government on many issues, but right now this thread is about Caribou, helps our cause? People may think why am I going on about this, but these things are linked, more than we know. We will never know if all the infighting allowed the "ball" to be dropped by both sides hurting our efforts to keep areas open.
Time to have a meeting with both parties and burry the hatchet and get back on the same page so we can fight this BS as one unified group. Strength in numbers, am I wrong???

 

[moyiesledhead]

still two clubs, friends or not. I am not making it up,( like most the research)government laugh at us. We need to be one voice to deal with both levels of government. If you think I am wrong I would like to hear from you, the president, how having two associations when dealing with Government on many issues, but right now this thread is about Caribou, helps our cause? People may think why am I going on about this, but these things are linked, more than we know. We will never know if all the infighting allowed the "ball" to be dropped by both sides hurting our efforts to keep areas open.
Time to have a meeting with both parties and burry the hatchet and get back on the same page so we can fight this BS as one unified group. Strength in numbers, am I wrong???

Yes to all that.....but it's not gonna happen any time soon. At least we're starting to work together. I was part of the BCSF environmental committee conference call where we first invited ABC to be involved. There was no question with any of us when the suggestion was made. There was no animosity. We all said YES, we're in this together, and the call was made. It's a start, but I agree....government sees 2 provincial organizations as a weakness.

Now......

 

[RevyG]

Thanks for that. Sorry for bringing it up, seems like a hot spot for the old guard judging from the messages I always get when I bring this up. At least you admitt it is a weakness, which from the previous six pages seems like a problem worth talking about, guess not. I will return to your topic, are the wolves really using our tracks to kill the caribou, how many times we gonna talk about this. You should hear what I hear on snow patrol around Revy when I explain it to guys who are staring at miles of untracked snow when it has not snowed in weeks. Lets just say I can not repeat it on here.
Off to the BCSF Revelstoke Snowmobile Club monthly meeting. We put 10 000 riders up Boulder and Frisby BEFORE Christmas, a voice that needs to be heard.

 

[moyiesledhead]

We put 10 000 riders up Boulder and Frisby BEFORE Christmas, a voice that needs to be heard.

There's the economic part of the equation that Deaner referred to a few pages back. I know you guys have been using that argument against closures for a long time too.

 

[ZRrrr]

Information I cited is indeed on the Boreal Caribou as that's what referenced in the feds document. However the management plans are very similar for the Boreal, Woodland and Mountain. I have read the BC gov's "Accounts and Measures for Managing Identified Wildlife - Accounts V. 2002" regarding the three species of Caribou. Based on your comments Moyiesledhead it seems you may know this document well.

What surprised me the most about it are two things.....one being that a lot of the research cited for "the plan" is well over 10 years old!!! How does that have any relevance today??!!

Other interesting part is the section on recreation. It references the creation of trails as allowing access for predators. HOWEVER, it is only inference and the word "may" is used repeatedly. "May render Caribou vulnerable to predators", "may provide easier travel corridors", "is believed to represent a significant threat", "snowmobiling has the greatest perceived threat". I am sure you get where I am going with this.

Right from the document. "although there is no documentation in British Columbia that snowmobiling has permanently displaced Caribou off winter ranges, a single occurrance of snowmobile use in alpine habitat in the Tweedsmuir-Entiako Caribou winter range displace radio-collared Caribou from the area for the duration of the winter". WOW! We know nothing of this snowmobiler, the snowmobile, the conditions, other factors and so on. They call that scientific evidence?!

Yup, kick out the sledders and kill thousands of wolves. Sounds like science based management to me.

Both the Fed report and BC report point a directly to forestry, oil and gas development. What are they doing with those groups and what's that got to do with sledders and wolves. I think we all know!

F'n corrupt/misguided governments.

Rant over........

 

[moyiesledhead]

Sounds like science based management to me.

Both the Fed report and BC report point a directly to forestry, oil and gas development. What are they doing with those groups and what's that got to do with sledders and wolves.

I learned very early on that science doesn't matter. It's all politics when it comes to species of convenience for justifying Yellowstone to Yukon. As snowmobilers we're not very good at politics.

I know nothing about oil and gas, but forestry in BC has been drastically restricted in the last 10 to 15 years in the name of Caribou recovery. But it takes 80 - 100 years to make an old growth forest again, hence the need for predator control in the meantime.