Bringing back th ol' 250 Two-strokes?

[TRAV]

Rebuilding the 2 stroke 3-4 times more than a 4 stroke is true with the old school 4 strokes (XR's and etc. the low perf ones) But not true with the newer high perf ones... I've been through all the parts pricing before, if you'er talking honda 2 stroke to 4 stroke, cylinders are about the same price, crank kits are about the same price, but heads aren't even close! My 500 is just over $100 and a CRF450 one is around $600... Year before last I put around 100hrs on my 500 without doing the motor and it was in decent shape when I tore it apart in the winter. Those kind of hours on a 4 stroke are almost unheard of without major problems. JMO And Yeah, every motor loves maintenance!!

If you rebuild a couple 4 strokes you will realize that they cost way more than rebuilding a 2 stroke. I put a piston and head on my 06 CRF450 and was into it for about a grand. Put a new cylinder, head and piston in my 08 Service Honda CR500AF and was into it for about $700. Also did a motor on my 08 KTM450XC-F and was into it for around 2 grand with a new head and piston. Just My Opinion[/QUOTE

all thinks being equal, you will have to rebuild your 2 stroke 3-4 times more than your 4 stroke. maybe even more. have you priced pistons and cylinders, rod bearings, etc.

the only way they could get 2 strokes to live in the old days was by pumping lots of oil through the system thus they were called oil burners. every motor out there loves maintenance and will cost ya when it is lacking.

 

[imdoo'n]

I have owned my Banshee since 95, I'm on my 3rd top end and she has been all over the States sand duning numerous time's. Preventitive maintence is the biggest key with any toy. Sorry imdoo'n, but 2 strokes are way cheaper to rebuild then 4 strokes, even if you just run a fresh hone and some rings in it every 3 years or so. I also had a 93 WR250, that I bought new in 92. That was a great bike, haven't own a bike since and I would consider going to KTM if I was to get another one. Both 2 and for strokes have their place, I would like another smoker again sometime.

generaly they are trashy, if you are comparying on a one time only. but all things being equal over time the 4 stroke should be cheaper, sometimes yes sometimes no. i'm thinkin we're on the same page somewhere. i still have a 79 xr 500 dirt bike on the same motor, although i don't ride it much anymore.

 

[polarisdragon800]

generaly they are trashy, if you are comparying on a one time only. but all things being equal over time the 4 stroke should be cheaper, sometimes yes sometimes no. i'm thinkin we're on the same page somewhere. i still have a 79 xr 500 dirt bike on the same motor, although i don't ride it much anymore.

let's not turn this into a bash. But come on!! Let's get real here.

 

[imdoo'n]

not sure what yer after. if ya have to replace a piston a 2 stroke will be cheaper, less parts on and off. if you have to replace 2- 2stoke pistons for 1- 4 stroke you may be paying more. all depends what has to be done and how often and who is riding and what kind of maintenance is being given. sled motors 2 stroke especially seem to cost $$$ and looks like 3-5000 km you are looking at motor replacement, Yamaha's just seem to keep on going. thus may be cheaper in the long run. just depends on what has to be fixed and how hard you ride, can't see what the big deal is. that is what i find, with the bikes and sleds i've owned and maintained. although if you abuse your ride you'll pay dearly for the repairs.

 

[polarisdragon800]

Huh? Take the same rider, that owns a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke. Rides them how they're supposed to be rode. Maintains them correctly. And rides both for 5 hours every weekend. He rebuilds the 4 stroke when it needs to
Be rebuilt, and rebuilds the 2 stroke when it needs to be rebuilt. Which one will leave more money in his pocket? The two stroke.

 

[imdoo'n]

if you say so, my experience is not the same. but you obviously have found different, good for you. i'll stick to my own observations.

 

[GYMBRAT]

I raced for quite a few years all on 2smokes, cheap and easy to rebuild, easy maintenance. I owned my 1st thumper as of last year, road it 3x in the mountains on Van Isl and toasted my valves and guides. $2070 later, thus the reason im hunting me down another 500cc 2smoker

imdoo'in, I LOVE them ol XR's, they last forever BUT for some reason these new temperamental thumpers (at least the race versions) dont seem to hold up like them ol bulls!

 

[goodngrubby]

I raced for quite a few years all on 2smokes, cheap and easy to rebuild, easy maintenance. I owned my 1st thumper as of last year, road it 3x in the mountains on Van Isl and toasted my valves and guides. $2070 later, thus the reason im hunting me down another 500cc 2smoker

imdoo'in, I LOVE them ol XR's, they last forever BUT for some reason these new temperamental thumpers (at least the race versions) dont seem to hold up like them ol bulls!

If you're looking for a 500 smoker...I gots um good deal for you.

 

[imdoo'n]

I raced for quite a few years all on 2smokes, cheap and easy to rebuild, easy maintenance. I owned my 1st thumper as of last year, road it 3x in the mountains on Van Isl and toasted my valves and guides. $2070 later, thus the reason im hunting me down another 500cc 2smoker

imdoo'in, I LOVE them ol XR's, they last forever BUT for some reason these new temperamental thumpers (at least the race versions) dont seem to hold up like them ol bulls!

yer right, ya never know when a motor will let go. if you only get a 1000km on a 2 stroke and 1000km on the 4 stroke, the 4 stroke motor will cost way more. but you usually get more than twice the running life from the 4 stroke thus it may be equal money, but if it where a perfect world we'd all ride skidoo's.

 

[sumx54]

two strokes are definitely cheaper to maintain. I have run them all over the years (30 yrs). I have re-built 10 2-strockers to the cost of two 4-strockers. just did a clutch, bottom end seals and water pump impeller on my ktm 450sx for the tune of $1600 and a decompression seal on a yz250f for another $150... that was this weekend. not cheap to run but FUN FUN FUN!!!

 

[DaveB]

XR's last forever and require no rebuilds for the same reason a Briggs and Stratton does: they make no power. Talk to anyone running a race 4 stroke (ie: one built to compete with a 2 stroke...YZF, CRF etc) and they will tell you the same thing: they need re-building AT LEAST as often as a 2 stroke and at 3 to 4 times the cost. I got tons of buddies who jumped on the 4 stroke bandwagon when 2 strokes started getting harder to get....all of them are running older 2 strokes now. It all boils down to the question: how does a four stroke make the same horsepower as a two stroke? The answer: it is either twice as big (displacement) or it revs twice as high....in the case of dirt bikes, it is both....you have 250cc 4 stroke machines spinning 12,000 rpm to compete with 125cc 2 stroke machines spinning 6500-8000. Then there's the weigh penalty....to keep the 4 stroke lightish, they run superlite pistons and wristpins, thin wall cylinders, titanium valvetrain...and all of that stuff is EXPEN$IVE.

 

[LID]

It's a lot of proper maintenance and a bit of luck. I paid a ton for my 08 KTM 530 when it was new but I ride the piss out of it, and only put a new top end in last fall, and only because it had 150hrs-it still hauled. That's at 150hrs and 5000km on the engine hauling my 275lb ass around. Valves only had to be re-set 2 times in 4 years and 150hrs.

 

[DaveB]

It's a lot of proper maintenance and a bit of luck. I paid a ton for my 08 KTM 530 when it was new but I ride the piss out of it, and only put a new top end in last fall, and only because it had 150hrs-it still hauled. That's at 150hrs and 5000km on the engine hauling my 275lb ass around. Valves only had to be re-set 2 times in 4 years and 150hrs.

Yup. That bike makes about 45 hp while the race 450's are doing about 55 hp. Yours also has 3 oil pumps...which would be a weight penalty on the race bikes for sure.

 

[sumx54]

Dude those numbers gotta be wrong... 17HP ????

 

[LID]

Yup. That bike makes about 45 hp while the race 450's are doing about 55 hp. Yours also has 3 oil pumps...which would be a weight penalty on the race bikes for sure.

20+lbs or so in weight penalty, before add ons. Oil pumps, kickstand, e-start, headlight, and slightly bigger gas tank. Wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[DaveB]

Dude those numbers gotta be wrong... 17HP ????

I deleted that link...looked wrong to me too. I did list the CRF with 56 hp though....

 

[LID]

I think you're right at the 55hp for the new 450 race bikes. The KTM 250SX is supposed to be in that range too. I think the Kawi 450 piston is supposed to be changed at less than 50hr intervals.

 

[GYMBRAT]

well pm me brudda lets make a dealio haha

 

[GYMBRAT]

XR's last forever and require no rebuilds for the same reason a Briggs and Stratton does: they make no power. Talk to anyone running a race 4 stroke (ie: one built to compete with a 2 stroke...YZF, CRF etc) and they will tell you the same thing: they need re-building AT LEAST as often as a 2 stroke and at 3 to 4 times the cost. I got tons of buddies who jumped on the 4 stroke bandwagon when 2 strokes started getting harder to get....all of them are running older 2 strokes now. It all boils down to the question: how does a four stroke make the same horsepower as a two stroke? The answer: it is either twice as big (displacement) or it revs twice as high....in the case of dirt bikes, it is both....you have 250cc 4 stroke machines spinning 12,000 rpm to compete with 125cc 2 stroke machines spinning 6500-8000. Then there's the weigh penalty....to keep the 4 stroke lightish, they run superlite pistons and wristpins, thin wall cylinders, titanium valvetrain...and all of that stuff is EXPEN$IVE.

precisely my point with just more words hahaha

 

[MtnMaster]

the problem is no one makes a new 2 stroke that will compete with my 505 4 stroke on a day to day basis The service honda 500 makes great peak power, but just doesn't have the rideability. I can basically ride my entire MX track in 3rd and 4th gear, all the way from almost a dead stop to 50+ foot triples in the same gear(3rd.) I know alot of people will say that being able to leave a bike in one gear for an entire track is boring and "easy," but it has also allowed me to jump way bigger jumps and rail corners much harder and faster because of it. Then take it to the dunes or wherever and let that extra torque take you to the top of any climb you can find. I did a ton of research before I bought my last 2 bikes(crf450,sxf505,) as I was 2 stroke for life and just couldn't bring myself to buy another 2 stroke. Yes, it most definitely costs more to rebuild but I really don't believe its as often. I do my top end every second year, and make sure my valves are all good every other(I do check them often, but don't seem to ever be out at all.) I recall doing my 250 2t's every single year, twice on a good year.

I really hate being on the 4 stroke bandwagon, I was always a 2 stroke diehard. But, the new age 4 strokes have come a long way and really are that awesome to ride. Did anyone else just hear that James Stewart left Yamaha because he couldn't get comfortable on the YZF450 and wasn't as fast because of it. He left a MAJOR contract to do it.... If he was fastest on a 2 stroke (ANY 2 stroke) don't you think he would be on it?

I've owned a bunch of 125 and 250's over the years, and just wish you could combine the powerbands of a CR500 and a KTM 505sxf into one mean track/dune destroying machine! I've had a ton of people try to convince me on a ktm 300 2t, but just found them grossly underpowered compared to any modern day MX machine....... this is all just my opinion of course!