BCSF provincial membership "draft proposal".

[lilduke]

I disagree, if your going to ride in a clubs designated venue. You need to pay your share. And as to do the bulk of the work BS. Its always the same dudes that do ALL the work and generally that accounts for a very few in comparison to membership numbers of the club. BEEN THERE DONE THAT and thing haven't changed.

All the local riders I know(in Revelstoke) have a Revy membership,(but choose to ride unmaintained areas) might be the od old fart that puts around on FSR roads that doesn't, but those guys don't bother me.

And it is a small group of people doing the all work, basically all locals though. (In Revelstoke) your area could be different?

 

[tex78]

The club needs to start grooming Griffen and or Sale. Too much pressure on Boulder and Frisby.
That's another thread though.

Fawk that, leave them bumpy to keep the warm and fuzzy fawktards away

sent while drinking tea's

 

[catinthehat]

I really don't believe that this mongering about people avoiding the trail pass is as big of an issue as being made here.
I believe that the ones that are most likely to go around to avoid paying are more local's and riders that believe they own the place. With the attitude that its their right cause they live there.
Out of town riders and tourist are the least likely to cheat the clubs.
And as for sledders to ride else where, no law saying they can't but its not the jewels of the sledding community, that belongs to the clubs and their members.
Many people do exactly that, drop their 20yr sled on a FSR, ride FSR and clear cuts and thats works for them. Most of these guys run unregistered sleds and don't give a rat's arse about membership's clubs and snowmobile forums.
How i know this?
SAR's get very few call's to organized sledding areas such as Revy/Sicamous in comparison to the unknown mountain on the out skirt of town. Finding these people and rescuing them and seeing the situation's. You will never get some of them to pay a user fee or join a club. You would have to outlaw sledding on crown otherwise.

You are right, it will be the locals ( as it always has been ) that refuse to pay or try to find a way around. Unfortunately this will mean a drop in overall revenue as there are a few locals that currently support the clubs but won't pay more to do so. The travelers will actually see a decrease in costs with a provincial pass which could result in lower BCSF funds than predicted. The last thing we want is for government to get involved, we know how wonderfully they handle everything else.

 

[Lund]

All the local riders I know(in Revelstoke) have a Revy membership,(but choose to ride unmaintained areas) might be the od old fart that puts around on FSR roads that doesn't, but those guys don't bother me.

And it is a small group of people doing the all work, basically all locals though. (In Revelstoke) your area could be different?

That is exactly my point, its always the same guys and gals that show up for workbee, yes generally local and they are alway club MEMBERS. So who cares that they decide to go in the back way unmaintianed trail. They're members anyhow. They paid into the club.
You won't see a NON member at a club workbee unless they are planning in joining in the first place. So NO they don't do the bulk of the work they do NO work and bypass our trails.

 

[ferniesnow]

My Montana Non Resident permit is $25.(us) Here is a blurb from their site

The Montana Snowmobile Program provides grant funding to support snowmobile trail grooming and education so enthusiasts can ride safely in Montana. Montana State Parks administers the snowmobile program and its 4,000 miles of trails.

My Idaho non resident permit is $32.50 (us) Here is how they break down those registration fees and the printing costs of registration sticker:
How is your certificate of number fee broken down?


$1.50 vendor fee
$1.00 snowmobile related Search and Rescue efforts
85% goes to the county operated snowmobile grooming programs
Up to 15% goes to administration fees and the printing costs of registration stickers.

These areas have a huge amount of users. They are grooming 24/7. It is all State run and they treat it like an industry. It brings in huge revenue for the state and towns.

So with those prices, maybe the government(s) realize the economic value of snowmobiling and support it appropriately. I am not one for more government involvement but it is something to add to the discussion.

 

[skegpro]

So just outta curiosity how many clubs actually charge the BCSF portion on a trail pass and actually remit it to the BCSF. And which ones don't?

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[lilduke]

That is exactly my point, its always the same guys and gals that show up for workbee, yes generally local and they are alway club MEMBERS. So who cares that they decide to go in the back way unmaintianed trail. They're members anyhow. They paid into the club.
You won't see a NON member at a club workbee unless they are planning in joining in the first place. So NO they don't do the bulk of the work they do NO work and bypass our trails.

Ok fair enough. I just don't think that is a big issue in the Revelstoke area. Maybe a handful of local guys that do that. Lots of out of towners that don't ride the groomed zones and probably don't have a membership. But they still buy food,gas,hotels ext in Revelstoke so overall it's still good for the town IMO

I understand that some small club down in the Koots, or the Lumby club could be a totally different story. Just talking about my area.


Last year I had a Revy pass and bought at least 20 day passes at Eagles pass and a few times in Sic.
I rode the Golden area 10 times last winter and didn't pay the Golden Club anything cause I was riding the back forty.
I don't think that makes me a terrible person. (Sorry Golden, I got your back)


For me a province wide pass would be awesome; for the Revelstoke club I don't think so. But maybe?

 

[Cableguy]

I also buy a pass for 2 areas and 25% of my 30-40 days are at non groomed places I personally would pay more to the bcsf if it came with liability insurance that might be something they could look at The reason a 2nd club started years back was because the smaller clubs were losing money by the way the bcsf allocated funds so hopefully it will be better this time
I think we need to keep the government out of our business though

 

[ferniesnow]

So just outta curiosity how many clubs actually charge the BCSF portion on a trail pass and actually remit it to the BCSF. And which ones don't?

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With the paper trail, all clubs remit the BCSF portion of club membership. There is no BCSF portion on daily trail passes. As it is now, the clubs that are using SilkStart get their money deposited into their bank accounts. No more waiting for the paper memberships to be reconciled.

 

[Lund]

Ok fair enough. I just don't think that is a big issue in the Revelstoke area. Maybe a handful of local guys that do that. Lots of out of towners that don't ride the groomed zones and probably don't have a membership. But they still buy food,gas,hotels ext in Revelstoke so overall it's still good for the town IMO

I understand that some small club down in the Koots, or the Lumby club could be a totally different story. Just talking about my area.


Last year I had a Revy pass and bought at least 20 day passes at Eagles pass and a few times in Sic.
I rode the Golden area 10 times last winter and didn't pay the Golden Club anything cause I was riding the back forty.
I don't think that makes me a terrible person. (Sorry Golden, I got your back)


For me a province wide pass would be awesome; for the Revelstoke club I don't think so. But maybe?

Well that was one of my original points that i believe its just a few locals going in the back way and its not as serious as some make it to be.
But from what Ferniesnow says its a big problem in his area.
I too would prefer the province wide pass.

 

[skegpro]

With the paper trail, all clubs remit the BCSF portion of club membership. There is no BCSF portion on daily trail passes. As it is now, the clubs that are using SilkStart get their money deposited into their bank accounts. No more waiting for the paper memberships to be reconciled.

And that's the part I really don't understand.

Any idea as to why there is no BCSF portion in a trail pass?

If 15% of your club membership goes to the BCSF then why shouldn't 15% of the trail pass go to the BCSF?

If the price has to go up from $25 to $28.75 I don't think you would see anyone loading up the trailer and heading home.

Most would probably tell you to keep the change cause they don't want the extra weight on the sled lol.

 

[ferniesnow]

And that's the part I really don't understand.

Any idea as to why there is no BCSF portion in a trail pass?

If 15% of your club membership goes to the BCSF then why shouldn't 15% of the trail pass go to the BCSF?

If the price has to go up from $25 to $28.75 I don't think you would see anyone loading up the trailer and heading home.

Most would probably tell you to keep the change cause they don't want the extra weight on the sled lol.

The daily trail pass is where most clubs make their money for grooming and trail maintenance. There is a movement to raise some of the club memberships to reflect the operating costs; instead of a club charging $80 for membership it has been suggested that it be raised to $120 (many are in the $200+ range). You do realize that when you buy a club membership, there are no trail pass fees at your home club. So a person could buy a club membership in Revy and Sicamous and not have to pay daily trail passes.

 

[skegpro]

The daily trail pass is where most clubs make their money for grooming and trail maintenance. There is a movement to raise some of the club memberships to reflect the operating costs; instead of a club charging $80 for membership it has been suggested that it be raised to $120 (many are in the $200+ range). You do realize that when you buy a club membership, there are no trail pass fees at your home club. So a person could buy a club membership in Revy and Sicamous and not have to pay daily trail passes.

Yes, but I would say 80% of the sledders at boulder any given day just buy a trail pass and are not members.

So they contribute sweet fawk all to the BCSF their whole snowmobile career.

 

[skegpro]

The daily trail pass is where most clubs make their money for grooming and trail maintenance. There is a movement to raise some of the club memberships to reflect the operating costs; instead of a club charging $80 for membership it has been suggested that it be raised to $120 (many are in the $200+ range). You do realize that when you buy a club membership, there are no trail pass fees at your home club. So a person could buy a club membership in Revy and Sicamous and not have to pay daily trail passes.

What percentage of revenue is trail passes vs memberships for your club?

 

[ferniesnow]

Yes, but I would say 80% of the sledders at boulder any given day just buy a trail pass and are not members.

So they contribute sweet fawk all to the BCSF their whole snowmobile career.

Yes, and the large majority are out of province riders. The regular out of province riders are members. Revy has a large number in that category.

 

[ferniesnow]

What percentage of revenue is trail passes vs memberships for your club?

Trail passes would be more than twice as much. A rider would have to ride the trail 6 times to make it worthwhile financially to buy a membership. Out of province riders may or may not make it out 6 times.

 

[skegpro]

Trail passes would be more than twice as much. A rider would have to ride the trail 6 times to make it worthwhile financially to buy a membership. Out of province riders may or may not make it out 6 times.

Yeah that's all I am getting at.
The trail pass guys are the majority yet they don't contribute anything to the BCSF.

Wish they would just buy a $30 membership,
But if every club charged $3.75 for the BCSF per trail pass they would be a little better funded.

 

[ferniesnow]

Yeah that's all I am getting at.
The trail pass guys are the majority yet they don't contribute anything to the BCSF.

Wish they would just buy a $30 membership,
But if every club charged $3.75 for the BCSF per trail pass they would be a little better funded.

If you go to the second page Curtis (VARDA) put up a post regarding a cheap club membership and then a seasons pass. I don't know how VARDA's finances' work but Curtis does a great job with that riding area and he has a lot of insight into the snowmobile world. Like he said, "mountain riding is a totally different beast than eastern trail riding. If it really is about provincial membership or numbers, the snowmobile world will not be compliant. They will fight it. It is sort of like the attitude that people had with registration and the back taxes. If the govt would have grandfathered the tax aspect, there would have been a lot more riders buying in and registering their sleds. Compulsory membership, registration, insurance is the way to go. Just have to find a way to make it work. IMHO, nothing that has been suggested over the years is going to work.

 

[skegpro]

Oh I agree 100% with Curtis, but like he says even giving people the cheaper option most will knowingly dodge the $30 membership and still only buy a trail pass.

I do hope we can somehow solve this puzzle.

And hopefully Curtis comes back and gives us some more insight on this topic when he can.

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[tex78]

The daily trail pass is where most clubs make their money for grooming and trail maintenance. There is a movement to raise some of the club memberships to reflect the operating costs; instead of a club charging $80 for membership it has been suggested that it be raised to $120 (many are in the $200+ range). You do realize that when you buy a club membership, there are no trail pass fees at your home club. So a person could buy a club membership in Revy and Sicamous and not have to pay daily trail passes.

Huh, don't understand what ya mean on the last part about passes

sent while drinking tea's