area closure for profit

[moyiesledhead]

If you check the McBride Dore thread, it looks as if the BCSF did nothing to help the locals there fight the Dore closure because the McBride club does not have enough members. If that is true, why support the BCSF when they pick and choose who to help?

I don't know the specifics on McBride but I do sit on the BCSF Environmental Committee and I can tell you they DON'T pick and choose who to help. They helped Trout lake before they even had a club. They'll help any club that asks, but lets be honest here. Getting help doesn't mean you'll necessarily get what you want, and it doesn't replace your obligation to help yourself either. Few snowmobilers in general from my experience will step up to help their club...if they even belong to one. It's always left to a few dedicated volunteers that eventually get burned out and quit. I'm getting close to that point myself. The BCSF has only one paid person dedicated to all this stuff and he can't be everywhere. I know personally how hard he works on this stuff with the rest of us volunteers. I know most sledders wouldn't want his job, including myself.

I've already said this but I'll say it again.....No one cares till the signs go up! As sledders our apathy is our biggest enemy.

Darn it, there I go ranting again! Nice to finally see this much interest. Could have used it 5 years ago!

 

[dirtbikersledder]

Hang in there Moyiesledhead, we appretiate your efforts, next time we're in Moyie beers are on us.

 

[snochuk]

Trail passes - $25 minimum and must be a club member. You wanna ride you WILL help to stop the closures! Should not be an option. If numbers and money helps to loby to keep areas open there should be no choice! Helping should be mandatory.

 

[scotts]

You know thats a good idea.Make memberships mandatory to ride any club maintained areas

 

[team dirt]

I am the president of the Seymour Arm snowmobile club and I am at this exact moment in time fighting to keep what little area we have still available to ride. our mountain is what the scientists have named the hub of caribou terain. We have fought a very long and hard battle and i am very surprised that we were able to keep what we have now. the governebt is currently trying to shrink the area they have allowed us and has laid out a threat that this needs to be done if we dont want to lose it completely. If you are looking for somewhere to put your money the seymour arm club would gladly take it. I will also gladly take a petition with me when I go into this meeting if someone knows how to get one started on here. i have included a link to our site if anyone would like some info.seymour arm snowmobile club - Google Search


Please stay out of currently closed areas as it is making it harder to deal with this. they are watching,trust me.

 

[Summiteer]

I don't know the specifics on McBride but I do sit on the BCSF Environmental Committee and I can tell you they DON'T pick and choose who to help. They helped Trout lake before they even had a club. They'll help any club that asks, but lets be honest here. Getting help doesn't mean you'll necessarily get what you want, and it doesn't replace your obligation to help yourself either. Few snowmobilers in general from my experience will step up to help their club...if they even belong to one. It's always left to a few dedicated volunteers that eventually get burned out and quit. I'm getting close to that point myself. The BCSF has only one paid person dedicated to all this stuff and he can't be everywhere. I know personally how hard he works on this stuff with the rest of us volunteers. I know most sledders wouldn't want his job, including myself.

I've already said this but I'll say it again.....No one cares till the signs go up! As sledders our apathy is our biggest enemy.

Darn it, there I go ranting again! Nice to finally see this much interest. Could have used it 5 years ago!

Dude, you're talking to a guy from a province where over 50% of the people can't be bothered to vote let alone get off their/our buts and join a club.
Not singleing you out eyesore, just saying.

 

[ackid]

wow were to start?..... how about right in my back yard! i have seen this closure process first hand. i live in rocky mtn house where many user groups have be affected by this problem first hand. does eastern slopes ring a bell? it has affected our local riding areas by all user groups greatly! i was the president of the rocky snowmobile club during all this and let me tell you there was a lot happening real fast! did i mention that i was only 22 at the time! our club was small but strong. our biggest problem was that there was only a hand full of us fighting a endless battle. when we would plan club meetings or trail projects we had all kinds of support of people saying "ya ill be there for sure" or "if you need help call" and even "great job keep up the good work"! just to see the same eight to eleven of us there every time. gets old fast! before long the club core broke down and gave up. we all had lives and jobs to lead. which when it comes down to, it comes first. luckly other user groups took the ball and have done major work to keep trail maintenace up and improve riding areas. my hat is off to them! and my shirt, if its not to muddy. after the seemingly endless hurdel many of us in the club gave up. i just wanted to be like the rest that would not show up and get in what i could while i could. one thing we came across in all of it was trying to come up with a way to fund raise money to help support the costs that trail passes, grants, and donations could not add up to. the answer we came across was to see if there was a way to get registries to add on to your yearly cost of off highway registration! the numbers were quite alarming. $25-$50 bucks per plate added up to millions! and that was just the low % of people that regester there off highway what evers. to me and many others it was a low cost for a huge gain! the only thing that many worried about was that they didn t trust that the money would make it back to us. we need to all work together on this wheither its alberta or british columbia or even the states. i now have kids and want to share with them places that ive been and see things that i cant hardly wait to get back to see it again. now my sights have been re sighted. maybe this will help someone out there that can take things further and get the ball rolling on this on going issue. just my two cents..... or two bits by the looks of things!

 

[ZRrrr]

This organization has been doing really well in the US. I have often thought a chapter here would be a good addition to us in Canada. Strength in numbers and a collective goal.

BlueRibbon Coalition: Protecting your recreational access to public lands.

 

[Summitric]

Asa member here, and fort saskatchewan snow angels, and snowseekers member, and mcbride bc member, and will be sicamous member in 1 1/2 weeks when we get back out there........and soon tri-county, because brian is dooin' a great job in their area!!!

 

[Summiteer]

Sorry pipes but the ASA wont do squat when it comes to standing up to gov and special interest groups. Untill the actual people/voters of these small towns and communities start voicing very large concerns to their MLA,s nothing will happen.
I really hate to say it but a lot of local clubs really arnt that concered with back country areas as they sell no trail passes to these areas therefore no revenue.
I have been saying for a long time on here that the long term plan of government is to confine sledder to sancitioned areas and thats it, but knowone listens.So have fun riding climina, and allencreek while watching places like vale and blue river die a slow death

The ASA has been an active participant in the Recreational corridors discussions for years but they don't and shouldn't advocate for ATV users.
They also do not get involved in the closures in BC. Not their mandate.

 

[Modman]

Problem is we don't have any formal science on our side. We need to form an organization like the Blue Ribbon or give more to the BCSF where we can form rebuttals to claims that have no scientific merit. All it takes is some article to pop up in the CBC website when these "scientists" make a claim about the caribou and "johnny general population" gets the wrong picture. I'm pretty sure we would be garnering more support if a counter-viewpoint article was published refutting the claims of these scientists and asking for more tangible evidence than what they are currently offering. Because a lot of the claims in regards to what is being currently stated do not have a scientific leg to stand on, so to speak.

There is currently no one representing backcountry users to stand up and make a comment in the media to refute these claims. If only someone knew an environmental scientist who worked with a bunch of biologists......

The media outlets would think twice about publishing articles with agenda's if someone from "backcountry user group 123" called them up and beat them over the head with their own article and lack of science that was applied in it. The government gives grants to other organizations on the opposite side of the fence from us, and they will give us $$$ to, we need to form the proper organization to do it though. Some random guy calling them up is not worthy of a headline in their opinion.

A couple of us tried to get this going on Snowest and there was about 4 people that responded. Pretty sad. There's always lots of talk, when action is really required.

The first guys to bitch about areas being closed and what wasn't done to save it, are usually the asshats riding out of bounds as well.

 

[team dirt]

Heres a link to a article that salmon arm observer did. It is one of the first articles I have seen that lets us get our story out and not let the tree huggers just have a bash fest.


I love how there is always some tid bit to reflect that its albertans who are the problem. most of the club in seymour is made up of albertans, who have had places in seymour for 30 plus years. we are the ones on the front lines to maintain and protect these areas.

 

[moyiesledhead]

“There’s a bunch of people coming from Alberta to snowmobile here, and the reason they’re coming here is because there’s rules there and they’re enforced,” said Cooperman.

What a load of crap! Has he ever been to Alberta? You're coming here for the great mountain riding....but we all know that!

Good response to the press release! Our local paper didn't catch up to me in time to include my response in their article. When he finally did he was quite surprised to hear that we were included as one of the clubs to have supposedly signed SMA'a, yet the Ministry hasn't yet signed ours after a year of waiting. There are some civil servants with a bit of egg on their faces right about now! They still haven't signed it though.....and we aren't doing any more work with signage and education until they do!

Ken

 

[Ministik Man]

First - How can the ASA & BCAF even begin to defend land closures when there budgets are not even big enough to pay for their 2 -3 person jobs.

The ASA & BCAF are both running on a break even budget, with little to no spare money and are so busy just keeping the organization running it does not have the man power or budget to launch a frontal attack on tree huggers and at best can only put out fires on local areas one at a time. This leave little time/recourses to address Provincial blanket closures. Many times the act of land closure has already taken place behind closed doors before ASA & BCAF hear about it and were not even included in the meetings.

Of the many many meeting I have attended regarding trails and trail development it always can down to the 38 American organizations that want to completely shut down the Canadian Rockies due to Grizzlies, Caribou, butterflies etc. When a actors wives wants to do something to save the planet and gets millions to start a not for profit organization how in hell is the ASA And BCAF going to defend these closures against 38 of these organizations - MONEY and MORE STAFF.

Many people commented about legislation and registrations fees. All of this has been documented in the past 4 trail reports/studies since 1970 the latest being the 2003 Alberta Recreational Review Study. It addresses every issue presented in this forum.. but it has yet to be tabled/implimented by the Alberta Government as it puts the Government at the front lines for Liability and cost of operations. They must prefer the out of “sight out of mind philosophy” or “Do not deal with it and it will go away”.

SO how to build a grass roots lobby organization to defend Trail Closures.

“TRAIL CLOSURE FUND” (FUND)
We need to get Ron to set up a “Trail Closure Fund (FUND)” that can be purchased here on this website. Have an Icon that indicates you purchased your Trail Closure Fund support and that the members of S&M will support and assist on preventing trail closures NOT just complain about it. “Put You Money Where Your Mouth IS” so to speak. It also uses peer pressure to purchase your Trail Closure Fund support as you can no longer complain on a thread if you have not supported the Fund.

 

[fargineyesore]

Sounds like a good idea. I'd certainly support it. I don't know why any Canadian Gov Agency is listening to Americans when it comes to Canadian areas. They should tell them to butt out of Canada and worry about the mess in their own country.

 

[team dirt]

“There’s a bunch of people coming from Alberta to snowmobile here, and the reason they’re coming here is because there’s rules there and they’re enforced,” said Cooperman.

What a load of crap! Has he ever been to Alberta? You're coming here for the great mountain riding....but we all know that!

Good response to the press release! Our local paper didn't catch up to me in time to include my response in their article. When he finally did he was quite surprised to hear that we were included as one of the clubs to have supposedly signed SMA'a, yet the Ministry hasn't yet signed ours after a year of waiting. There are some civil servants with a bit of egg on their faces right about now! They still haven't signed it though.....and we aren't doing any more work with signage and education until they do!

Ken

if you google jim cooperman he is not very educated on these issues, i think he just says what he is feeling and not honest truth. the only problem is these are the people the govement is listening to.

 

[snochuk]

First - How can the ASA & BCAF even begin to defend land closures when there budgets are not even big enough to pay for their 2 -3 person jobs.

The ASA & BCAF are both running on a break even budget, with little to no spare money and are so busy just keeping the organization running it does not have the man power or budget to launch a frontal attack on tree huggers and at best can only put out fires on local areas one at a time. This leave little time/recourses to address Provincial blanket closures. Many times the act of land closure has already taken place behind closed doors before ASA & BCAF hear about it and were not even included in the meetings.

Of the many many meeting I have attended regarding trails and trail development it always can down to the 38 American organizations that want to completely shut down the Canadian Rockies due to Grizzlies, Caribou, butterflies etc. When a actors wives wants to do something to save the planet and gets millions to start a not for profit organization how in hell is the ASA And BCAF going to defend these closures against 38 of these organizations - MONEY and MORE STAFF.

Many people commented about legislation and registrations fees. All of this has been documented in the past 4 trail reports/studies since 1970 the latest being the 2003 Alberta Recreational Review Study. It addresses every issue presented in this forum.. but it has yet to be tabled/implimented by the Alberta Government as it puts the Government at the front lines for Liability and cost of operations. They must prefer the out of “sight out of mind philosophy” or “Do not deal with it and it will go away”.

SO how to build a grass roots lobby organization to defend Trail Closures.

“TRAIL CLOSURE FUND” (FUND)
We need to get Ron to set up a “Trail Closure Fund (FUND)” that can be purchased here on this website. Have an Icon that indicates you purchased your Trail Closure Fund support and that the members of S&M will support and assist on preventing trail closures NOT just complain about it. “Put You Money Where Your Mouth IS” so to speak. It also uses peer pressure to purchase your Trail Closure Fund support as you can no longer complain on a thread if you have not supported the Fund.

And I would still raise all daily groomed trail fees so every rider donates $10 every time he uses a club trail. Forced funding (user fee) is required.

 

[Powder Puff]

Kinda looks like a couple of the guys I ride with.
This was presented at our last meeting with ILMB. Over the last 3 yrs. we have also produced and signed a Snowmobile Management Agreement with MoE for the Revelstoke area. Our agreement isn`t with ILMB so now they have approached us with further closures because of outstanding Science Team recommendations in the Revelstoke area. We don`t have a SMA with ILMB is what gov. told us, so here we go again? Envrio Groups are putting pressure on them to follow through with the science teams recommendations. The closures are based on the origional Mtn. Caribou Recovery Implementation Plan maps that we all saw in Summer 2007. Seems like those SMA`s aren`t worth the paper they were written on now.

 

[Powder Puff]

this was brought to me by a AB. club member thought a few of you might be interested.

 

[Klingon Warrior]

Wow! That's a pretty bold statement! Now that I've calmed down enough to not type what I really want to say, I can respond.

Many, many individual club volunteers and the BCSF have been fighting very hard on YOUR behalf for a long time on this issue. I've personally spent the last 6 years spending more time in land use meetings that almost turned into fist fights than I have riding. I might add "Public" land use meetings, that I couldn't get other snowmobilers to attend to save my soul. No one cares till the signs go up, then all hell breaks loose! Why didn't you do this? Why did you agree to that?

Well.....where were you when it mattered? Some of us have NOT been standing back and letting it happen, and I'm getting more than a little tired of hearing it!

There. Rant over. You made some good points after that shot though. We tried repeatedly to get the same rules for commercial operators as for us, but in the end it all comes down to money and politics. Government can't just take away a commercial tenure at will. It would cost them a fortune to buy them back, and they're just not gonna go there. It came down to agreeing to the closures we ended up with, or losing a whole lot more area. We don't like it any more than the rest of you do, but at least we tried our best!

Ken Philpot
Land use Co-ordinator
Cranbrook Snowmobile Club

Like said,,,
Overall, most Canadians are pacifists,, here are some statistics, in Alberta and BC, there are almost a quarter million sleds and less than 10.000 belong to any associations or clubs, how's that for apathy,,, when it comes to keeping these riding areas open, how much of a voice do we have? For less than the cost of 1 day of riding, sledders can be a part of something good, instead, the mentality is,"someone else will take care of it".
There's a lot more closures looming, bout the time they happen, is when you'll hear the beefing and moaning about our freedoms being restricted. The South Saskatewan Land Use Management plan is one, Castle Wilderness closure is another, we have already lost the Bighorn area here in Alberta, all are templates to close The Eastern Slopes in Alberta, and don't kid yourself,
BC will follow suit. Anybody heard of Y to Y? Yellowstone to Yukon, the tree huggers are on a mission to erradicate back country use, to all user groups, not just sledders. This is not new news,, this has been looming for years and gaining momentum.
I respect closures for wildlife, alarming as it is, we are invading their space, but so many don't. Frisbee ridge is a good example, the signs say stay on the trail, there's always the HEROS who can't resist and trespass, risking permanent and massive closures for all access. We have 1000 ft of trail that crosses a Provincial park, and the signs warn you to stay on the trail, again, HEROS either can't read or choose to ignore the signs and deviate. Unfortunately, they are gone by the time the Rangers arrive and are not reprimanded, however, again, they risk closures for all.
I have been involved with the ASA and organized snowmobiling for the last 15 or so years and like moyiesledhead, have been to many Land Use Meetings, and been active in the fight to keep riding areas open, yes the ASA is involved with the Alberta government in this fight, but unfortunately the sledders voice is not loud enough to get their attention.
I too shake my head in wonderment as to why I get so involved when the the population of sledders at large is so apathetic on these matters until it's too late ! An option may be, buy yourself a large piece of land, because sooner than you think, it may be the only place you will be able to ride your sled !
Rant over !

Joel Wasnidge
President Calgary Snowmobile Club