Ammonia leak in Fernie.............3 people dead.

[iceman5689]

Its in a contained room, and the amount is small. When the alarm sounds and it is such a small amount that evacuation is not a problem. The building is evacuated and nobody goes back in till the people TRAINED to run scuba go in and fix the problem. Just having the equipment does not make the average Joe able to use it properly.

The intent of having safety gear, is having the ppl working in and around the equipment trained to use them. Exactly what I'm getting at, clearly you also need a better ERP plan if this is the case.

 

[ferniesnow]

Standard firefighter bunker gear is not sufficient for entry into that atmosphere. Level A suits are required. That plus the 2 in 2 out rules and requirements for a decontamination line make recovery a large task. Probably outside the scope of the local fire department.

Thank you.

 

[007sevens]

The intent of having safety gear, is having the ppl working in and around the equipment trained to use them. Exactly what I'm getting at, clearly you also need a better ERP plan if this is the case.

No, We have a very good one in place, but thanks for your concerns. Maybe hop on a board with an small town arena and then start making accusations.

 

[cdnredneck_t3]

No, We have a very good one in place, but thanks for your concerns. Maybe hop on a board with an small town arena and then start making accusations.

I don't mean to start a fight, just some friendly advice. A procedure or ERP plan is never so good that there are no areas for improvement. If the board has the mentality to say theirs is so good it does not need review and get angry with anyone who raises questions or concerns you are setting yourself up for disaster. I have spent 15 years working at a very large gas plant and have been on the high angle/confined space rescue team and have been involved with industrial hygienists to review and correct site procedures and practices involving LOTO, purging practices of pressure vessels and piping and allowable residue of hydrocarbon for safety of workers and personnel. I learn something new every time and learned to approach everything with an open mind. When you think it can't happen that's when it does and you usually aren't prepared for it.

 

[iceman5689]

I don't mean to start a fight, just some friendly advice. A procedure or ERP plan is never so good that there are no areas for improvement. If the board has the mentality to say theirs is so good it does not need review and get angry with anyone who raises questions or concerns you are setting yourself up for disaster. I have spent 15 years working at a very large gas plant and have been on the high angle/confined space rescue team and have been involved with industrial hygienists to review and correct site procedures and practices involving LOTO, purging practices of pressure vessels and piping and allowable residue of hydrocarbon for safety of workers and personnel. I learn something new every time and learned to approach everything with an open mind. When you think it can't happen that's when it does and you usually aren't prepared for it.

Agree with your statement I also have been in industry for 12 yrs working with large oil company. These will not eliminate every angle of incidents but do you now feel more prepared in the chance they do occur? When was the last major event in the last 15yrs you worked or death, likely never. All injuries are preventable if you have all safeguards in place, and properly trained employee.

 

[Caper11]

Ammonia is worse than H2S IMO, horrible stuff to work with or be around, a small leak in a building can be a very time consuming task to try and find.
There is no point and comparing standards set in the oil and gas, to policy's and procedures in a hockey rink. Yes its just another refridge system, but we dont know what happened.

 

[Cdnfireman]

The big difference is H2S is rarely found in commercial/recreational buildings. Ammonia is nasty stuff for sure and is common everywhere not to not in arenas, but wherever large refrigerators are needed eg butcher shops etc. It reacts to moisture and burns like crazy in the nose, eyes etc and a small amount can be debilitating very quickly. Those workers in fernie were probably overcome and incapacitated rapidly if there was anything other than a small leak.

 

[cdnredneck_t3]

Agree with your statement I also have been in industry for 12 yrs working with large oil company. These will not eliminate every angle of incidents but do you now feel more prepared in the chance they do occur? When was the last major event in the last 15yrs you worked or death, likely never. All injuries are preventable if you have all safeguards in place, and properly trained employee.

A few close calls and 2 contractors had an arc flash incident last turnaround. All the close calls I have been involved with usually come down to complaisance. I'm a dual ticket Millwright Crane operator and listened to some 30 year guys lifting an exchanger cover plate. Someone even had labels made up for the weight and attached to the plate. Got the "oh ya we lift these all the time" speech. Used the label for my load calc and ended up at 110 percent capacity. Had to turn the key on the lmi to decrease my radius. It's a good thing I had set up and would have only been at 60 precent capacity of the weight was correct. When I put the incident in I wasn't popular with the other crane operator who has showing me what they have done in the past for that job. But to me it's a learning experience. I learned to never trust anyone. Now the weights are documented with a PENG stamp verifying they are correct.

 

[OVERKILL 19]

Very sad!
Ive been a part of my company’s ERT and hazmat response for western Canada. Ive taken pretty much every hazmat corse there is from Maple ridge to Texas to Jackson Mississippi. I get corses pretty much every year or twice a year
One thing I’ve seen is the smaller center fire Dept cant afford to train in-depth hazmat as much as they need.
The larger center justify it more due to the drug basked hazmat they encounter soo often.
I encourage the smaller guys to join Chlorep institute

They put on cheap training across the country, yes it’s Chlorine based but the cylinders are basically the same leak response and repair.

 

[Keith Brown]

Having had a fair amount of experience with Anhydrous Ammonia in a refrigeration setting. I am reasonably sure that the victims of this tragedy could not enter a space that contained a fatal level of ammonia. Anhydrous Ammonia is much like hitting a brick wall even at sub fatal levels. The only reasonable explanation I can think of that could take the lives of these experienced workers is a catastrophic failure of equipment or piping which released liquid ammonia. Even with the one Scott pack which is typically available at sites like these egress may be possible, but rescue of your coworkers would be impossible. It is a predicament I would not wish on anyone. There but by the grace of god go I.

 

[OVERKILL 19]

Having had a fair amount of experience with Anhydrous Ammonia in a refrigeration setting. I am reasonably sure that the victims of this tragedy could not enter a space that contained a fatal level of ammonia. Anhydrous Ammonia is much like hitting a brick wall even at sub fatal levels. The only reasonable explanation I can think of that could take the lives of these experienced workers is a catastrophic failure of equipment or piping which released liquid ammonia. Even with the one Scott pack which is typically available at sites like these egress may be possible, but rescue of your coworkers would be impossible. It is a predicament I would not wish on anyone. There but by the grace of god go I.

^^^^ that’s what I thought too... truly sad !