Alberta government working on licensing for home builder

[X-it]

It is so screwed now there is no coming back, all the other trades should go the same way, every tom dick and harry start wiring and plumbing a gas fitting and turn it into the same gong show. You get a bad Doctor to but that does mean they are all bad.

 

[09 arctic cat m8]

It is so screwed now there is no coming back, all the other trades should go the same way, every tom dick and harry start wiring and plumbing a gas fitting and turn it into the same gong show. You get a bad Doctor to but that does mean they are all bad.

Ya man if you ask me a ticket in trades me f all, I know a few guys that have red seals and I wouldn't want them building me a birdhouse for my yard, I've had lisensced mechanics work on my trucks that don't have a clue, it's the same as everything else out there it should be buy beware in my opinion, And the warranty program is a real great thing I'm supposed to stand by my work and products that could and will fail as nothing lasts forever in this world, so when it does fail I have to run over there and fix and warranty a faulty product I call that bs,Your right man it's screwed up

 

[X-it]

Not sure why I give a sh*t, I have been retired for 8 years now. As far as that birdhouse goes, I did build one once ...not a dam bird would go in it.

 

[fhe]

There appears to be a growing gap between "qualified" and "competent". I'd take competent every time. Find this issue in the O&G industry daily.

 

[09 arctic cat m8]

So does this law mean, that a carpenter without a ticket,has to get a ticket in Oder to continue building homes

 

[Cyle]

I'm curious how many years you've been in the business?

There are apprenticeships for every trade, concrete, Carpenter, survey, plumber, electrician, gas, tin basher, equipment operator even painter....

There is a big difference in a red seal carpenter vs a learn on the job guy. As always there are exceptions to this. I have a buddy who is an amazing self taught carpenter but his lack of code knowledge and education background holds him back.

Been in the business a very long time, as many others have said, seals don't mean sh*t.

Some of the ones you listed are courses not actual real seals, maybe I need to get a bunch of courses, I do everything from running my track hoes digging the basement, cribbing, framing, sometimes finishing, etc. Do you think someone needs a red seal to use a fawking paint brush? No they need experience and pride in their work. IME the ones who tout they have a red seal do it because they don't have a fawking clue what they are doing. Ask a lot of these old timer carpenters who do real custom cabinets (not just installing boxes) and finishing, the ones who are REALLY good, and most of them will tell you to shove that red seal up your a*s.

I sub out some framing to a "red seal" guy and every. single. time. I have to go around and tell him to fix so much sh*t that he misses because he doesn't know what he's doing and saying his work is ok is a compliment, it pains me to let him do anything because I invest so much time making sure the end product is good. I don't have any fancy schooling, somehow virtually every framing inspection I get that was done by me and my guys the inspector points out being impressed by the work. Do I know every code? Or course not, but that's why I have a ABC book to look up if i'm not sure, and I guarantee no framer knows them all either, and they are also continually changing. Wanna know why? I am a small guy backing up my homes and i'm liable if there's a problem, if a foundation goes on someone who builds 2 a year at maybe $100k cost it can break you, if you build 500 a year and can save a few hundred bucks on each one and maybe one goes, it's not that bad. I put more rebar in my foundations then virtually all builders put in 5, and no i'm not exaggerating.

Wanna know why I mention foundations? Because it is one of the worst things done right now in the business. The most expensive thing to fix and the most overlooked thing in a house build despite being the most important part of a house. I have not found a single decent size cribber who actually knows what they fawk they are doing. I've called a few, and every single one when I ask 'do you vibrate every single wall?" every one says no. It's an extra charge some don't even own one, that's enough to know they are a hack who doesn't know what they are doing. Add on that are wet set some of the rebar, I wouldn't want to be the one responsible to fix those time bombs.

Also being a builder who is hands on and is competent of doing any trade in building a house (but knows which ones to leave to the pros) knows what to look for in every trades work and what shortcuts there are etc.

 

[Cyle]

So does this law mean, that a carpenter without a ticket,has to get a ticket in Oder to continue building homes

Not a chance they will link it to an actual trade, there would be way too much backlash because of how many builders would basically be forced to have a carpenter on payroll (just to pull permits even) or hire one.

It's going to be a day or maybe a few days course with a hefty annual membership fee. No protection for the buyer and just another hoop to jump through for the builder.

 

[deaner]

Not a chance they will link it to an actual trade, there would be way too much backlash because of how many builders would basically be forced to have a carpenter on payroll (just to pull permits even) or hire one.

It's going to be a day or maybe a few days course with a hefty annual membership fee. No protection for the buyer and just another hoop to jump through for the builder.

Thats how it is in BC already. I enjoyed building my house so much (I have built others, and renovated many) that I thought of doing specs on the side. I cant. I can only do one every so many years as an owner builder, and to do one has a builder I need to be registered under the new home warranty program. In order to do that you need to jump through a million hoops, put up a bond, and either be a journeyman carpenter or have full time one on staff. Makes it kind of impossible to justify to build 1 house a year. And I guarantee my house is built as well or better than any of the builders in town.

What regulations like this do is create little monopolies. We have that with septic here. You need to be fully licensed and everything to do a septic system now. Since there are only so many guys that do it, they band together and set a "going rate". Turns a system that should cost 6-7k into 15-20k. Its criminal. I know because Ive had quotes, and I had a friend let me help do ours for the new house. I bought materials and helped him install. Dont know how they could possibly charge 15-20k.

 

[lilduke]

They probably have to charge more, because it costs more to be legit?

 

[deaner]

They probably have to charge more, because it costs more to be legit?

$10,000 more per system to be legit? How so? The friend that helped me put it in is all legit. Even as a friend I told him not to give me break on his hourly rate for his man and equipment. He charged his full rate, didnt knock off any hours, and I bought the materials. Worked out to right around 7k. Neighbor across the road hired someone else and was just over 18k.

 

[X-it]

Get enough unqualified people in the other trades and they too will have to come with a warranty to fix the fuk ups. That never get fixed anyway.

 

[pano-dude]

Been in the business a very long time, as many others have said, seals don't mean sh*t.

Some of the ones you listed are courses not actual real seals, maybe I need to get a bunch of courses, I do everything from running my track hoes digging the basement, cribbing, framing, sometimes finishing, etc. Do you think someone needs a red seal to use a fawking paint brush? No they need experience and pride in their work. IME the ones who tout they have a red seal do it because they don't have a fawking clue what they are doing. Ask a lot of these old timer carpenters who do real custom cabinets (not just installing boxes) and finishing, the ones who are REALLY good, and most of them will tell you to shove that red seal up your a*s.

I sub out some framing to a "red seal" guy and every. single. time. I have to go around and tell him to fix so much sh*t that he misses because he doesn't know what he's doing and saying his work is ok is a compliment, it pains me to let him do anything because I invest so much time making sure the end product is good. I don't have any fancy schooling, somehow virtually every framing inspection I get that was done by me and my guys the inspector points out being impressed by the work. Do I know every code? Or course not, but that's why I have a ABC book to look up if i'm not sure, and I guarantee no framer knows them all either, and they are also continually changing. Wanna know why? I am a small guy backing up my homes and i'm liable if there's a problem, if a foundation goes on someone who builds 2 a year at maybe $100k cost it can break you, if you build 500 a year and can save a few hundred bucks on each one and maybe one goes, it's not that bad. I put more rebar in my foundations then virtually all builders put in 5, and no i'm not exaggerating.

Wanna know why I mention foundations? Because it is one of the worst things done right now in the business. The most expensive thing to fix and the most overlooked thing in a house build despite being the most important part of a house. I have not found a single decent size cribber who actually knows what they fawk they are doing. I've called a few, and every single one when I ask 'do you vibrate every single wall?" every one says no. It's an extra charge some don't even own one, that's enough to know they are a hack who doesn't know what they are doing. Add on that are wet set some of the rebar, I wouldn't want to be the one responsible to fix those time bombs.

Also being a builder who is hands on and is competent of doing any trade in building a house (but knows which ones to leave to the pros) knows what to look for in every trades work and what shortcuts there are etc.

So if your sub is not up to par why continue to use him?

All the trades I mentioned are listed on the Alberta trades website.
Of course guys with no tickets are going to say they mean nothing.
There are thousands of trades out there and many of the poor ones are in residential construction Imo.

You are right pride makes the difference but give the same guy 4 years of schooling vs none he is a way better tradesman.
a poor journeyman will train his apprentices the same way he does his job.

Again booming economy does not help train good trades.

 

[lilduke]

$10,000 more per system to be legit? How so? The friend that helped me put it in is all legit. Even as a friend I told him not to give me break on his hourly rate for his man and equipment. He charged his full rate, didnt knock off any hours, and I bought the materials. Worked out to right around 7k. Neighbor across the road hired someone else and was just over 18k.

Oh I don't know, just a theory. No time to speculate right now, too many variables.

not surprised when you do some of the labour, plus hire a friend it is cheaper
than hiring a company to do it for you.

my point was it cost money to jump through these hoops, need to charge
for that too unfortunately.

 

[deaner]

Oh I don't know, just a theory. No time to speculate right now, too many variables.

not surprised when you do some of the labour, plus hire a friend it is cheaper
than hiring a company to do it for you.

my point was it cost money to jump through these hoops, need to charge
for that too unfortunately.

Hey.....Im cheap, but definitely dont mind someone doing a job and making money for it. Like I said, if his rate was 80 bucks an hour.....fair enough. If it cost 10k to hire someone else, then fine. I can see needing a little padding in there in case something goes wrong. But 10k in padding for a simple job that takes maybe 2 days to do?

Thats my issue with over regulating things. It kind of creates little monopolys. I think its ridiculous that I cant put my own system in. There needs to be rules for sure....but as long as i follow those rules why cant I do it. Should be able to get a professional to make up a plan, install it myself, and then have it inspected. But not allowed to do that anymore. Kind of the same thing with building a house. There is building code in place for a reason. Its a good thing. Thats why we pay ridiculous amounts for building permits is to have inspectors make sure that builders (licensed or not) are following building code.

 

[lilduke]

Hey.....Im cheap, but definitely dont mind someone doing a job and making money for it. Like I said, if his rate was 80 bucks an hour.....fair enough. If it cost 10k to hire someone else, then fine. I can see needing a little padding in there in case something goes wrong. But 10k in padding for a simple job that takes maybe 2 days to do?

Thats my issue with over regulating things. It kind of creates little monopolys. I think its ridiculous that I cant put my own system in. There needs to be rules for sure....but as long as i follow those rules why cant I do it. Should be able to get a professional to make up a plan, install it myself, and then have it inspected. But not allowed to do that anymore. Kind of the same thing with building a house. There is building code in place for a reason. Its a good thing. Thats why we pay ridiculous amounts for building permits is to have inspectors make sure that builders (licensed or not) are following building code.

i agree with you. I'd rather do things my self than be extorted into hiring someone else.

blame the government though, not the contractor. Your neighbor should have shopped around.

he should have got you friend to do it for him.

 

[JayT]

I can't agree with this statement more. I have been framing houses for 15 years and I am not a journeyman. Never been to nait. I do however employ one journeyman carpenter and another third year carpenter and I can tell you with absolute certainty going to nait for 8 months does not qualify you to frame houses. My "journeyman carpenter" got through nait by being a concrete labourer for his apprenticeship and when he got on my jobsite he was lost. Just because someone is "qualified" doesn't mean they have a clue what they are doing.

There appears to be a growing gap between "qualified" and "competent". I'd take competent every time. Find this issue in the O&G industry daily.

 

[X-it]

Most journeyman carpenters work industrial jobs, most of that being form work. Probable a ratio of 70% industrial and 30 % residential. And that would be me too, I doubt I have worked on more than 100 houses. Industrial work is way more challenging than residential.

 

[deaner]

I dont think anyone in this thread is saying having a ticket is a bad thing. If I was going to work in the trades full time I would for sure get my red seal. I think the issue is just too much government regulation with EVERYTHING these days. Sometimes it is needed. Most of the time it just creates, bureaucracy, red tape, and waste. IMHO the free market will sort things out. I think there are enough checks and balances in place with the building code, permit, and inspection process. If that isnt working, then they need to review their system and do it better, not impose more regulations.

 

[rzrgade]

^ This


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pano-dude]

I can't agree with this statement more. I have been framing houses for 15 years and I am not a journeyman. Never been to nait. I do however employ one journeyman carpenter and another third year carpenter and I can tell you with absolute certainty going to nait for 8 months does not qualify you to frame houses. My "journeyman carpenter" got through nait by being a concrete labourer for his apprenticeship and when he got on my jobsite he was lost. Just because someone is "qualified" doesn't mean they have a clue what they are doing.

Experience, training and education are all part of being a competent trades person.