Valemount Search and Rescue saved us
- Thread starter Goliath
- Start date
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Goliath
Active member
How long do they typically burn for?
Mike270412
Golden Boy
We used to make those with the old fashioned tobacco tins and keep one in the car in case of emergency. It will keep the interior of a car warm for hours.
cattechsummitrider
Active VIP Member
Depends on how much wind gets at them, in a no wind situation about 3 hours,( depending on size of can) but you can always ad more gas,, It will work without the toilet paper but not quite as good
Better than freezing
Fatdaddy
Active VIP Member
Another good fire starter is to fill a pop can / beer can full of gas. It will burn like a candle for about 1/2 hour to get fire started.
cut the top off first.
skegpro
Active VIP Member
Wake up dead?
Fatdaddy
Active VIP Member
No just fill it full. It works so good. Burns just like a candle until you can get some wood burning.
Mike270412
Golden Boy
You might want to crack a window.
skegpro
Active VIP Member
Similar story.
Finally got a chance to sit down and write about our incident last weekend in the Chic Chocs. I assume most of you have already heard the general story, so I will quickly summarize that. I mostly wanted to note what we used (and wished we had) that allowed us to spend almost 40 hours in the woods at 0F and be rescued by a Canadian military helicopter. Hopefully it can help someone be more prepared than they are now.
A couple guys from our group of snowbikes dropped over a ridge into a section of steep trees that would have been easily rideable if the snow was different. That day, the snow was super powdery, bottomless, and filled with buried trees. I went in to help Leon get unstuck, and quickly found that getting back out the way we went in wasn't going to be possible. We sidehilled horizontally across the mountain as long as possible, hoping to intersect the ridge and ride out the top. The tree line was super dense at the top, and riding through it wasn't possible. The tree line gradually forced us downhill into a river bed, where we decided to head for a "road" on the GPS that would lead us to an old trail, then out. We battled the creek bottom, open water, tons of stucks, trees, dead ends, etc well past dark. The “road” wasn’t there. The sides of the ravine were too steep, deep and dense to get out, the way we came in was out of the question, and the way we were heading was dead ended everywhere we looked. Eventually, wet, cold, exhausted and almost out of gas, we decided to set up camp and try again in the morning. The next morning, my bike wouldn't start. Obviously a few mistakes were made that got us in there in the first place, but dozens of good choices followed that allowed us to stay the night, the next day, and half of the following night until we could be retrieved. Search and rescue had attempted to reach us by snowmobile and snowshoes for almost 24 hours and were unable to get to us.
It goes without saying that you absolutely need to be able to start and maintain a fire if you expect to spend any amount of time in the woods in the winter.
Besides that:
The #1 most valuable asset we had was my Corona folding limb saw. I have been carrying this saw since I started riding the backcountry in 2008, and it was in someone's hand cutting almost 100% of the time. It is super efficient and durable, and easily cuts up to 12" logs. DO NOT TRUST THE SHOVEL SAWS!! They are brittle, bend, and break, and will wear you out. Fires in the snow take a surprising amount of wood to make heat. The wood is almost guaranteed to be wet and/or green. We had stockpiles of different wood and tended the fire constantly, and still froze. Don't leave home without a good saw.
#2 Garmin Inreach. This is a small satellite communication device that allows you to send messages and your coordinates through text. Not only did this take the guesswork out of where we were for search and rescue, but it allowed us to communicate to our families that we were ok, etc. We all feel terrible about the worry and chaos that this situation caused our families, but it would have been much worse for them if no one knew where we were, and if we were alive, injured, lost, etc. I had just gotten the Inreach for christmas and almost didnt take it. Without it, you are limited to radio contact and old fashioned hunting.
#3 Good gear. Space is limited on what we can carry every day, but we all wished we had a spare, dry layer to change out at night. We were all wet from riding/digging/working, and even the best gear takes a long time to dry out when it's 0 degrees. Even with good gear and a solid fire, we all froze all night. I was more sore from shivering and being tense all night than I've ever been from any exercise or activity. Any gear can be waterproof, but if it doesn't breathe, your inner layers will stay wet. Breathability is what drys you out and warms you up. There is a reason I wear and sell KLIM. And I think we all know by now, no cotton.
#4 Batteries. Almost all of our "life saving" equipment relies on batteries. Charge everything every night. Dont use it during the day if you don't need it. Keep important, small devices close to your body to keep them warm. Cold kills batteries even if they aren't being used. The equipment is only worth having if you can turn it on and use it, and chances are if you need it for an emergency, it is going to be needed for a long period of time. Carry a small recharging battery and the correct cables, and keep it warm.
#5 Mental and physical aptitude. Always be thinking. Make only careful, methodical movements to make forward progress and avoid mistakes, stay calm. Panic will never help anything and is usually dangerous. Luckily we all kept calm, worked together, and were in pretty good shape (for old guys). This got really long.
Huge thanks to the local Search and Rescue team, the helicopter crew, our snowbike buddies who did everything in their power to help us out, the Sled Den, and our families for not chopping our heads off when we got home... Live and learn, send and return.
Finally got a chance to sit down and write about our incident last weekend in the Chic Chocs. I assume most of you have already heard the general story, so I will quickly summarize that. I mostly wanted to note what we used (and wished we had) that allowed us to spend almost 40 hours in the woods at 0F and be rescued by a Canadian military helicopter. Hopefully it can help someone be more prepared than they are now.
A couple guys from our group of snowbikes dropped over a ridge into a section of steep trees that would have been easily rideable if the snow was different. That day, the snow was super powdery, bottomless, and filled with buried trees. I went in to help Leon get unstuck, and quickly found that getting back out the way we went in wasn't going to be possible. We sidehilled horizontally across the mountain as long as possible, hoping to intersect the ridge and ride out the top. The tree line was super dense at the top, and riding through it wasn't possible. The tree line gradually forced us downhill into a river bed, where we decided to head for a "road" on the GPS that would lead us to an old trail, then out. We battled the creek bottom, open water, tons of stucks, trees, dead ends, etc well past dark. The “road” wasn’t there. The sides of the ravine were too steep, deep and dense to get out, the way we came in was out of the question, and the way we were heading was dead ended everywhere we looked. Eventually, wet, cold, exhausted and almost out of gas, we decided to set up camp and try again in the morning. The next morning, my bike wouldn't start. Obviously a few mistakes were made that got us in there in the first place, but dozens of good choices followed that allowed us to stay the night, the next day, and half of the following night until we could be retrieved. Search and rescue had attempted to reach us by snowmobile and snowshoes for almost 24 hours and were unable to get to us.
It goes without saying that you absolutely need to be able to start and maintain a fire if you expect to spend any amount of time in the woods in the winter.
Besides that:
The #1 most valuable asset we had was my Corona folding limb saw. I have been carrying this saw since I started riding the backcountry in 2008, and it was in someone's hand cutting almost 100% of the time. It is super efficient and durable, and easily cuts up to 12" logs. DO NOT TRUST THE SHOVEL SAWS!! They are brittle, bend, and break, and will wear you out. Fires in the snow take a surprising amount of wood to make heat. The wood is almost guaranteed to be wet and/or green. We had stockpiles of different wood and tended the fire constantly, and still froze. Don't leave home without a good saw.
#2 Garmin Inreach. This is a small satellite communication device that allows you to send messages and your coordinates through text. Not only did this take the guesswork out of where we were for search and rescue, but it allowed us to communicate to our families that we were ok, etc. We all feel terrible about the worry and chaos that this situation caused our families, but it would have been much worse for them if no one knew where we were, and if we were alive, injured, lost, etc. I had just gotten the Inreach for christmas and almost didnt take it. Without it, you are limited to radio contact and old fashioned hunting.
#3 Good gear. Space is limited on what we can carry every day, but we all wished we had a spare, dry layer to change out at night. We were all wet from riding/digging/working, and even the best gear takes a long time to dry out when it's 0 degrees. Even with good gear and a solid fire, we all froze all night. I was more sore from shivering and being tense all night than I've ever been from any exercise or activity. Any gear can be waterproof, but if it doesn't breathe, your inner layers will stay wet. Breathability is what drys you out and warms you up. There is a reason I wear and sell KLIM. And I think we all know by now, no cotton.
#4 Batteries. Almost all of our "life saving" equipment relies on batteries. Charge everything every night. Dont use it during the day if you don't need it. Keep important, small devices close to your body to keep them warm. Cold kills batteries even if they aren't being used. The equipment is only worth having if you can turn it on and use it, and chances are if you need it for an emergency, it is going to be needed for a long period of time. Carry a small recharging battery and the correct cables, and keep it warm.
#5 Mental and physical aptitude. Always be thinking. Make only careful, methodical movements to make forward progress and avoid mistakes, stay calm. Panic will never help anything and is usually dangerous. Luckily we all kept calm, worked together, and were in pretty good shape (for old guys). This got really long.
Huge thanks to the local Search and Rescue team, the helicopter crew, our snowbike buddies who did everything in their power to help us out, the Sled Den, and our families for not chopping our heads off when we got home... Live and learn, send and return.
I think I might start packing a little pint one of these with. Super cool idea to make in a paint can. Seal the lid and it should stay good all season!
skegpro
Active VIP Member
Would that last longer than this?
I would be worried about the alcohol evaporating???????
cattechsummitrider
Active VIP Member
The alcohol makes for a very clean flame,
But we just use gas out of the sleds and it works very good
I keep a roll of TP in an old tobacco can with a wrap of duct tape around the lid to keep it dry
And tp is always good to have on the hill
What does toilet paper sell for on the hill now days? $20 a square?
This is not to put your heater down skegpro, I had one and they last along time and they put out lots of heat, its just we were looking for something that could be refilled easily if we were stuck for an extended period.
But we just use gas out of the sleds and it works very good
I keep a roll of TP in an old tobacco can with a wrap of duct tape around the lid to keep it dry
And tp is always good to have on the hill
What does toilet paper sell for on the hill now days? $20 a square?
This is not to put your heater down skegpro, I had one and they last along time and they put out lots of heat, its just we were looking for something that could be refilled easily if we were stuck for an extended period.
snopro
Active VIP Member
I just won the lottery then if its $20/square. For some reason I haul around TP for my buddy who keeps using it up??
skegpro
Active VIP Member
Yeah now worries.
I don't pack either right now.
Honest question.
I pack big beeswax candles.
But this sounds way better.
Common theme is building a fire is exhausting.
Much rather spend my energy digging a cave and staying warm and then being to warm lol.
Shitfly
Active VIP Member
Great story, and glad to hear everything worked out as it did! Just another example of all the amazing work people like Curtis and the locals from SAR/Valemount/VARDA do, can never be enough thank-you's for all those involved. Good on you for sharing your story, these situations are a great opportunity for people to bring up lots of valuable information for everyone. Not going to run thru all the stuff I carry or what people should carry, but thought I'd share what I have in my backpack at all times along with a quality bivy sack on the sled in the case I need to snow-shelter in place on the hill. This little beauty works great and packs nice and light:
- Thread starter
- #97
Goliath
Active member
Skegpro,
Sounds very very familiar! Very happy to have you on this side, safe and warm!
Your description of how you dropped in and how it was impossible to get out, realy hits home. Ive heard alot of people say "Ive been in there or I could have gotten out of there". Under the right conditions we could have also gotten out, but it just wasn't going to be possible in these conditions. THE LAST THING WE WANTED TO DO WAS SPEND THE NIGHT. After exhausting all options, that was our reality as well as yours. I appreciate the fact that you were not going to leave a man behind, that's what I had, and hope from my riding group. Very honourable!
I agree with all the MUST haves you mentioned. The shovel saws are what kept us alive, but they are brutal! unfortunately that's all we had. Our first saw snapped within the first 5 min, the second saw was more valuable that gold at that point. If we broke it, we would have been in very big trouble! We did not have a INREACH with us, but we had limited radio contact with the other two of our group. GPS devise a must!
When my two friends went to the cabin to see if someone could help, they met a guy (Curtis) that had just got an INREACH and had a baofang radio. He was able to give SAR a location of our drop in point and have radio contact with us from the cabin! Needless to say, I own a Baofang now and it works great! Curtis and I started talking over text and actually went riding together at the Mountain Mania weekend in Mcbride along with my good buddy chad. Great guys, great rider and we had a lot of fun. This is exactly what this sledding community is about! getting to know each other, sharing information, help keeping each other safe.
One of the fellas on here mentioned to try to survive WITHOUT a fire. This confused me, how in the world do you do that?? Due to the extreme amount of work and danger it took to stay warm, I started looking into it. There is some awesome videos on YouTube on this subject. Some are bivy sacs, survival blankets with a candle ect, but in my experience I found the survival blanket to be very delicate. It did not hold up too two guys in and out of it all night. Because it did work so well when it was intact, I decided to find a heavier duty one that would stand up. That's the most important piece to reflect the warmth. But what I came up with on my own is ( I'm sure this will bring lots of comments haha ) I bought a XL BBQ cover. It is water proof and packs down to a reasonable size. Cut two hole in the top for your heads to stay out of, a 36 hour survival candle and two guys can fit under and stay warm. I tried it out in -10 and it works pretty damn good! Instant shelter, especially if someone is injured and cant help make a shelter. Its by no means staying at the Ritz Carlton, but it keeps you warm and dry with minimal work. I also purchased the MSR mini stove and dehydrated food from Cablella's. that stove is incredible!! The other thing I bring now is some thin folded up poly. If you have to start a fire and are making a lean too type shelter with reflective survival blankets, wrap the poly around the front of the lean too and it acts as a green house keeping the fires warmth in the shelter.
Sound silly and bulky? It is a little bit...…. until you need it! Skegpro, I couldn't agree with you more about shivering until it hurts, bad muscle cramps! I now also have two different saws, one in my pack and one on the sled. Very nice foldable buck saw, weighs nothing and takes up very little space. But goes through a tree quickly, and a high quality foldable saw.
These are some of the things I now carry and I know I would be much more comfortable and warm if it ever happened again. IMAGINE if this happened in -25 and someone was hurt?? Little scary. Ill gladly carry a little extra weight!!
Sounds very very familiar! Very happy to have you on this side, safe and warm!
Your description of how you dropped in and how it was impossible to get out, realy hits home. Ive heard alot of people say "Ive been in there or I could have gotten out of there". Under the right conditions we could have also gotten out, but it just wasn't going to be possible in these conditions. THE LAST THING WE WANTED TO DO WAS SPEND THE NIGHT. After exhausting all options, that was our reality as well as yours. I appreciate the fact that you were not going to leave a man behind, that's what I had, and hope from my riding group. Very honourable!
I agree with all the MUST haves you mentioned. The shovel saws are what kept us alive, but they are brutal! unfortunately that's all we had. Our first saw snapped within the first 5 min, the second saw was more valuable that gold at that point. If we broke it, we would have been in very big trouble! We did not have a INREACH with us, but we had limited radio contact with the other two of our group. GPS devise a must!
When my two friends went to the cabin to see if someone could help, they met a guy (Curtis) that had just got an INREACH and had a baofang radio. He was able to give SAR a location of our drop in point and have radio contact with us from the cabin! Needless to say, I own a Baofang now and it works great! Curtis and I started talking over text and actually went riding together at the Mountain Mania weekend in Mcbride along with my good buddy chad. Great guys, great rider and we had a lot of fun. This is exactly what this sledding community is about! getting to know each other, sharing information, help keeping each other safe.
One of the fellas on here mentioned to try to survive WITHOUT a fire. This confused me, how in the world do you do that?? Due to the extreme amount of work and danger it took to stay warm, I started looking into it. There is some awesome videos on YouTube on this subject. Some are bivy sacs, survival blankets with a candle ect, but in my experience I found the survival blanket to be very delicate. It did not hold up too two guys in and out of it all night. Because it did work so well when it was intact, I decided to find a heavier duty one that would stand up. That's the most important piece to reflect the warmth. But what I came up with on my own is ( I'm sure this will bring lots of comments haha ) I bought a XL BBQ cover. It is water proof and packs down to a reasonable size. Cut two hole in the top for your heads to stay out of, a 36 hour survival candle and two guys can fit under and stay warm. I tried it out in -10 and it works pretty damn good! Instant shelter, especially if someone is injured and cant help make a shelter. Its by no means staying at the Ritz Carlton, but it keeps you warm and dry with minimal work. I also purchased the MSR mini stove and dehydrated food from Cablella's. that stove is incredible!! The other thing I bring now is some thin folded up poly. If you have to start a fire and are making a lean too type shelter with reflective survival blankets, wrap the poly around the front of the lean too and it acts as a green house keeping the fires warmth in the shelter.
Sound silly and bulky? It is a little bit...…. until you need it! Skegpro, I couldn't agree with you more about shivering until it hurts, bad muscle cramps! I now also have two different saws, one in my pack and one on the sled. Very nice foldable buck saw, weighs nothing and takes up very little space. But goes through a tree quickly, and a high quality foldable saw.
These are some of the things I now carry and I know I would be much more comfortable and warm if it ever happened again. IMAGINE if this happened in -25 and someone was hurt?? Little scary. Ill gladly carry a little extra weight!!
skegpro
Active VIP Member
Opps I should have said I borrowed this one off the internet.
Just wanted to show how similar it was from the first story.
I have been in a very similar situation but we tapped early.
Called in the heli with that sat phone to bump the sleds back to where we could get out.
Funny thing was it was a hill/area we have literally been up and down a hundreds of times, just the snow was snow deep we couldn't move around.
**** happens fast.
Be prepared to stay the night and be able to facilitate your own rescue.
Just wanted to show how similar it was from the first story.
I have been in a very similar situation but we tapped early.
Called in the heli with that sat phone to bump the sleds back to where we could get out.
Funny thing was it was a hill/area we have literally been up and down a hundreds of times, just the snow was snow deep we couldn't move around.
**** happens fast.
Be prepared to stay the night and be able to facilitate your own rescue.
- Thread starter
- #99
Goliath
Active member
I might have misunderstood reading your post, oops haha. Well I'm glad everyone is safe.
Sure does happen fast! Its even harder to get over the fact that it happened when I was one of the people that thinks it only happens to someone else. Whaaaalla! Karma, now deal with it haha.
One good comment on an earlier post that really stuck with me "You owe it to your rescuers and your family to ATLEAST being able to spend one night". That made me re-visit my survival and safety gear I carry. I'm sure I will "lighten my load" after a few trips, but as for right now I'm fully prepared. Just riding a bit heavy haha.
Sure does happen fast! Its even harder to get over the fact that it happened when I was one of the people that thinks it only happens to someone else. Whaaaalla! Karma, now deal with it haha.
One good comment on an earlier post that really stuck with me "You owe it to your rescuers and your family to ATLEAST being able to spend one night". That made me re-visit my survival and safety gear I carry. I'm sure I will "lighten my load" after a few trips, but as for right now I'm fully prepared. Just riding a bit heavy haha.
skegpro
Active VIP Member
Absolutely.
That is usually the first question they ask you is are you prepared to spend the night?
If the answer is no you are putting the lives of several rescue personnel at risk.
Way safer in most cases to to start a search at Sun up.
But also helps if you give them exact coordinates.
Getting rescued is no mistake and takes alot of effort from both parties.
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