Sidewinder clutching

[old700]

Cleaning clutches tonight and find all three weights are toast. What is the Dalton weight I need for a stock 18 SW 162 with a cold air and CR muffler? Stock tune. Also almost every ride I have a primary roller get sticky. So I pull it out and find the bushing starting to come out. This has been ongoing since this sled was new. The clutching gremlins are starting to defeat me. My setup is:
Primary- stock weights loaded up to 59g, Dalton black/gold(stock equivalent)
Secondary - 3mm milled off to bring into spec, Dalton billet 35*helix and a black/orange spring in 3-3, High torque rollers. Still using 8JP belt. Also still can’t find where a plastic piece came from(I have a post in the turbo side of Yamaha forum here) that I found in belly after last belt exploded. This is the first sled I’ve ever owned that takes belts out and has constant clutching issues.

 

[zal]

I have the evo stage 2 tune, so my clutching will be different. But for the rollers, I know there’s an aftermarket rollers made out of phenolic which last a lot longer than the stock ones. My stock ones didn’t last at all. Put those in and still on the same set. I have 1700km and went through one belt (completely my fault). The sled is the same as yours.
That plastic piece, I’ve never seen that on any of my Yamaha's...

 

[old700]

I have the evo stage 2 tune, so my clutching will be different. But for the rollers, I know there’s an aftermarket rollers made out of phenolic which last a lot longer than the stock ones. My stock ones didn’t last at all. Put those in and still on the same set. I have 1700km and went through one belt (completely my fault). The sled is the same as yours.
That plastic piece, I’ve never seen that on any of my Yamaha's...

Phenolic primary rollers?

 

[06yamahaapex]

Lots of guys on totally yamaha have put the old style apex drive clutch back on with great results with roller and belt life.

 

[zal]

https://ty4stroke.com/threads/replacement-primary-rollers-bushings.150742/

The ones I have look exactly like phenolic to me. I’ve machined phenolic before and have some at work.

 

[canuck5]

I know the bone stock Mtx weights were 55.5g as you say if you load them up likely closer to your number. I ran the evo stage 4 at 6-1 70 deg with dalton springs. Flyweights were Qay 62 Dalton’s with extra 4 grams 66ish. I would think you should be pretty safe going with the Qay 58’s as there adjustable up to 65g.

 

[canuck5]

I also found my MTX clutching was always quite warm especially in the deep heavy snow in Revy area. As you already said get as close to alignment spec as possible that helped cool down belt somewhat. I tried more wrap on secondary as it’s something that used to help on Nytros but never found a perfect combo. I never did try the 8dn belt as I sold mine at 2700km but I know guys were having more success with them on totally Yamaha wasn’t too hard I think just set belt deflection for slightly different lengths. I think there was also flat spots on those secondary rollers as well causing some belt issues was an update on those at one time harder roller I believe. I think I did 3 belts in 2700 km not great but not horrible. Defiantly more cool down breaks required than the 800’s.

 

[06yamahaapex]

The dalton arctic cat springs are better for this application. Pm me if you want more info. Even with a big wrap the yamaha dalton springs still slip.

 

[Lund]

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Cleaning clutches tonight and find all three weights are toast. What is the Dalton weight I need for a stock 18 SW 162 with a cold air and CR muffler? Stock tune. Also almost every ride I have a primary roller get sticky. So I pull it out and find the bushing starting to come out. This has been ongoing since this sled was new. The clutching gremlins are starting to defeat me. My setup is:
Primary- stock weights loaded up to 59g, Dalton black/gold(stock equivalent)
Secondary - 3mm milled off to bring into spec, Dalton billet 35*helix and a black/orange spring in 3-3, High torque rollers. Still using 8JP belt. Also still can’t find where a plastic piece came from(I have a post in the turbo side of Yamaha forum here) that I found in belly after last belt exploded. This is the first sled I’ve ever owned that takes belts out and has constant clutching issues.

I'm guessing you have not spent much time researching the SW clutching. Anything you need to know and including clutch set up can be found on this forum on one of my threads "Super Sidewinder".
The MTX set up is wrong from the get go and anything you will read about and find as after market is worthless and won't work. Essentially there is a small change that needs to be done and that is all.
Well over 90% of people that fuack around with the SW clutches loose engine power and end up with hot clutches that eat belts.
Look up my thread and read up on it.
BTW, i'm over 4,000 and the weights are just like day one and just broke in my 3rd belt as a preventative measure and have never blown one.

 

[Lund]

Sidewinder clutch setup quick tips:

MTX weights 8KC are high elevation weights that you will never ride at (8,000ft+) The profile is not agressive enough and they are too light to load the crank so the engine can not actually generate good power. Less power = hot clutches = belt eating, which also translate to a slouch on snow in comparison to a good set up.

Dalton Qay weights are a waste of your coin, the profile again is not compatible with the SW.
Its not just about GRAMS in weights the profile play an important role.

If you are an aggressive rider I recommend swapping the drive belt at about 1000k WITH a primary spring. Belt $150 + spring $40, cheaper then some of the other brands out there.
The weak link is the secondary rollers, one roller carries more weight then the other two and will flatten in time. I carry an extra set and simply replace the one roller when needed. My first roller went at 800k, while my second went over 2500k. They were updated by Yamaha but it is a flaw in design.

 

[canuck5]

I don’t disagree with profile being important but I just skimmed that 319 post thread on your “super sidewinder” I seen everything from breakdown of cost gearing changes the mph you achieved on stocker all good stuff but for his sake I didn’t see exact clutch set up. What flyweights/spring combo did you use and how much weight. If that flyweight number is higher how did the sled respond off the hop was it boggy to gain your crank loading and top end track speed?

 

[old700]

Sidewinder clutch setup quick tips:

MTX weights 8KC are high elevation weights that you will never ride at (8,000ft+) The profile is not agressive enough and they are too light to load the crank so the engine can not actually generate good power. Less power = hot clutches = belt eating, which also translate to a slouch on snow in comparison to a good set up.

Dalton Qay weights are a waste of your coin, the profile again is not compatible with the SW.
Its not just about GRAMS in weights the profile play an important role.

If you are an aggressive rider I recommend swapping the drive belt at about 1000k WITH a primary spring. Belt $150 + spring $40, cheaper then some of the other brands out there.
The weak link is the secondary rollers, one roller carries more weight then the other two and will flatten in time. I carry an extra set and simply replace the one roller when needed. My first roller went at 800k, while my second went over 2500k. They were updated by Yamaha but it is a flaw in design.

I had ordered the LR weights end of last season but the wrong ones showed up. I’ve since stopped using that particular dealer because of some other issues I’ve had. Took the sled into another Yamaha dealer today that has a little more focus on the Yamahas. Ended up using the Hurricane alignment tool on it and found that the secondary was still way out. Milling a couple more mm off to correct that tonight. Put a set of Daltons in for now just cause that’s all that I could find in short notice, but if I’m not happy, will be going to the LR’s. My Hi torque secondary rollers have been good, only had to change one out in the last 1800km. Riding this weekend and I’m focus on the clutches, check some temps, Mark them with a sharply and really see what they are doing. Thanks for all the help.

 

[canuck5]

Which Daltons did you grab?

 

[Lund]

I had ordered the LR weights end of last season but the wrong ones showed up. I’ve since stopped using that particular dealer because of some other issues I’ve had. Took the sled into another Yamaha dealer today that has a little more focus on the Yamahas. Ended up using the Hurricane alignment tool on it and found that the secondary was still way out. Milling a couple more mm off to correct that tonight. Put a set of Daltons in for now just cause that’s all that I could find in short notice, but if I’m not happy, will be going to the LR’s. My Hi torque secondary rollers have been good, only had to change one out in the last 1800km. Riding this weekend and I’m focus on the clutches, check some temps, Mark them with a sharply and really see what they are doing. Thanks for all the help.

Yes the LR weights are the ones you want and load them to the max.
The profile the SW likes for most riding you will encounter in BC, the belt will thank you for it too.

The more aggressive flatter profile loads the crank a lot more and motor will make more HP and torque with them.

Yamaha in Kelowna is finally setting any SW that comes through the shop with customer clutch and belt complaint this way, that only took me 2 season to convince them. So maybe there is hope with other dealers out there.

FYI; we have dyno'ed the SW at CR racing, shop at approx. 2,500ft elevation. In 100% stock form this engine makes a solid 193-4HP.
We removed the factory muffler and slipped on the CR resonator muffler to see the motor crank out a solid 208-10HP.
We also ran the CR straight pipe to see it rack up to 218hp.
The point is if you want to see your SW make these numbers, load the crank. No load no power.​

 

[old700]

End of Feb I decided to put a Hurricane tune in my sled. Also re checked the clutch alignment with a hurricane tool and had to shave some more off the secondary to get it right. It was already supposed to be aligned with this tool from a different dealer pre season, but still wasn’t 100%. Around Revy I run Dalton DTYA1, around 75-78g and am at 8800. In Golden we ride higher elevation so found a set of the QAY 62’ loaded to 70g work well. In hindsight, at set of the QAY 70’s would be the best for me as I could adjust them for both areas, oh well. Have not taken a belt out since and that’s been great! Lol. However, still am having to change primary rollers out every 300km, has been this way since new. I took the clutch up to a machine shop in Edmonton for balancing yesterday and it was out 5g, not sure if that will make a big difference but here’s hoping. Also trying a set of the 16mm rollers instead of the 14.5mm,s. I have talked to a lot of guys running turbo yammis with way more hp than my sidewinder has and primary rollers are not a problem. I pulled the crank stub shaft out about an inch last night to look at it, got it out enough to feel the outer bearing and it feels smooth, never pulled it right out because I wasn’t sure if that seal behind would be damaged if I completely removed(riding Saturday and don’t want to track parts down on short notice). I will be able to tell if the roller bushings are holding up after a day of riding, so here’s hoping!

 

[06yamahaapex]

alot of guys on ty are putting the old style drive clutch off an apex for example on and are having good luck with belt and roller life.

End of Feb I decided to put a Hurricane tune in my sled. Also re checked the clutch alignment with a hurricane tool and had to shave some more off the secondary to get it right. It was already supposed to be aligned with this tool from a different dealer pre season, but still wasn’t 100%. Around Revy I run Dalton DTYA1, around 75-78g and am at 8800. In Golden we ride higher elevation so found a set of the QAY 62’ loaded to 70g work well. In hindsight, at set of the QAY 70’s would be the best for me as I could adjust them for both areas, oh well. Have not taken a belt out since and that’s been great! Lol. However, still am having to change primary rollers out every 300km, has been this way since new. I took the clutch up to a machine shop in Edmonton for balancing yesterday and it was out 5g, not sure if that will make a big difference but here’s hoping. Also trying a set of the 16mm rollers instead of the 14.5mm,s. I have talked to a lot of guys running turbo yammis with way more hp than my sidewinder has and primary rollers are not a problem. I pulled the crank stub shaft out about an inch last night to look at it, got it out enough to feel the outer bearing and it feels smooth, never pulled it right out because I wasn’t sure if that seal behind would be damaged if I completely removed(riding Saturday and don’t want to track parts down on short notice). I will be able to tell if the roller bushings are holding up after a day of riding, so here’s hoping!

 

[HUNT 24/7]

Yeah lots of big HP Winder guys having great luck with Apex primary, stock secondary & Ultimax XS825 belts.

 

[Lund]

End of Feb I decided to put a Hurricane tune in my sled. Also re checked the clutch alignment with a hurricane tool and had to shave some more off the secondary to get it right. It was already supposed to be aligned with this tool from a different dealer pre season, but still wasn’t 100%. Around Revy I run Dalton DTYA1, around 75-78g and am at 8800. In Golden we ride higher elevation so found a set of the QAY 62’ loaded to 70g work well. In hindsight, at set of the QAY 70’s would be the best for me as I could adjust them for both areas, oh well. Have not taken a belt out since and that’s been great! Lol. However, still am having to change primary rollers out every 300km, has been this way since new. I took the clutch up to a machine shop in Edmonton for balancing yesterday and it was out 5g, not sure if that will make a big difference but here’s hoping. Also trying a set of the 16mm rollers instead of the 14.5mm,s. I have talked to a lot of guys running turbo yammis with way more hp than my sidewinder has and primary rollers are not a problem. I pulled the crank stub shaft out about an inch last night to look at it, got it out enough to feel the outer bearing and it feels smooth, never pulled it right out because I wasn’t sure if that seal behind would be damaged if I completely removed(riding Saturday and don’t want to track parts down on short notice). I will be able to tell if the roller bushings are holding up after a day of riding, so here’s hoping!

Be aware that TY is better suited for eastern riders(flat landers) when it comes to mountain tuning.
The larger roller's (16mm) will act like your running heavier weights keeping the shift ratio on the high side, this may cause a response issue under heavy loads that one would encounter in a steep and deep mountain application.
Good luck with your Hurricane tune, yes great "HP NUMBERs" but little torque increase along with it, again created and set up for flat riding. Same with EVO.

BTW you can pull the stub shaft out all the way, there are no seals to damage. We do it all the time and green loc-tite the splines when we put it back together.