Possible closure for Revy

[Bnorth]

They might pay $1000 a day, but very little leaves the resort they stay at. Same with the ski hill people. Anyone who has taken their family to a mountain knows how expensive it is. Very little gets spread around the local businesses after.

Quit thinking locally and think provincially. The corporations pay income tax, make political donations, employ people that pay income tax, build expensive lodges, hire heli operators etc. While sledders may drop good cash it is not to one business it is spread amongst many who do not have as strong a voice as one large corporation. Not to mention it's easy to point a finger at us as we are a very visual user group and don't do ourselves any favours with our public image.

 

[frock]

Absolutely correct Darcy. It was never about Caribou. They're just a "species of convenience".

And really....government is shouldering too much blame for this. If you compare what we still have through clubs working with government to what the Caribou science team recommended (and still does) for total closure you'll see that this government is not green. In fact most of them just wish Caribou would go away so the issue would die. They are a government though, and in the end it's about getting re-elected. We all know our provincial government is elected in the lower mainland by city people that just believe the green hype and have no idea how, where, why Caribou live and die. Our politicians walk a fine line, and many of them have been very helpfull to us as motorized users. Azzhats that violate the closures just give the greens more ammunition. Can't win a war if you're out gunned, and it's just dumb to turn your gun on your own army.

Very well put Moyie, but I see one small error in your post. There is very little science used in the Caribou science teams data.

Is this the sledders weapon of choice ?

 

[moyiesledhead]

Very well put Moyie, but I see one small error in your post. There is very little science used in the Caribou science teams data. ?

Didn't say there was, and you're right. Their recomendations were mostly based on the "precautionary principle", which by definition.......well here it is.

The precautionary principle (or precautionary approach) to risk management states that if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public, or to the environment, in the absence of scientific consensus (that the action or policy is not harmful), the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking an action that may or may not be a risk.

Of course they only apply the "precautionary principle" when it suits them. If they'd applied it to their South Purcell transplant it never would have happened, and 20 Caribou wouldn't have been kidnapped, relocated, and died needlessly.

 

[aocbiz]

Didn't say there was, and your right. Their recomendations were mostly based on the "precautionary principle", which by definition.......well here it is.

The precautionary principle (or precautionary approach) to risk management states that if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public, or to the environment, in the absence of scientific consensus (that the action or policy is not harmful), the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking an action that may or may not be a risk.

Yup! Sounds pretty political to me.

 

[moyiesledhead]

Yup! Sounds pretty political to me.

Now you're catching on!

 

[snowrideadventures]

As a tenured operator and an associate member of Helicat, I can contribute what little understanding I have on the heliski/snowmobile issue. On average, 45% of client revenue goes to pay for the cost of operating the helicopter, so at $1000/day/person, $450/person is going to pay for the helicopter, then there is guides, administration, maybe food and lodging as well. If I had time to go back through my emails I could get an exact dollar figure for what heliskiing's and catskiing's annual economic output is in BC, however I seem to remember it being roughly $180 million + or -. I understand snowmobiling accounts for roughly $860 million of annual economic output in BC. Helicat, the BSCF and FLNRO all know these figures, economically snowmobiling smashes heliskiing. The director of helicat has been working with the snowmobile community to resolve some of the conflicts and present the province with a unified approach, it is not an evil organization out to destroy snowmobiling as their management understands that collectively, backcountry snowmobiling, heliskiing and catskiing is a billion dollar business in province and that is good for them. I think they also realize that its good for them to develop resolutions with the communities rather by legislation, HC members may see it differently.

So why is it that snowmobiling typically gets the crappy end of the stick? There certainly appears to be a bias against motorized sports with government, we are certainly seeing that with registration and land closures. Representation likely plays a fairly large role, ie: CMH has a full time government lobbyist on payroll, Helicat is run by a brilliant lawyer type that is extremely perceptive and communicates very well, as are the other industry associations - WTA, CWSSA, etc... the lesson I've learned is that dealing with government bureaucrats is best left to lawyers and professional lobbyists. The decision makers at FLNRO are extremely over worked, they don't get out much so their decisions are likely based on input rather real world experience, and snowmobiling ranks at the bottom of their list of priorities.

The amount of information gathering, consensus building and fact finding that Helicat performs gives them a lot of ammo to throw at the government.

I've also haven't heard any mention of Helicat petitioning for cariboo closures, perhaps some of their members may have but its never come up at their meetings, press releases or in conversation.

The consensus amongst Heliski operators is that they are alarmed by the unprecedented mobility of modern day snowmobiles, we are in a lot places that we previously weren't and they aren't comfortable with that. We are adding a tremendous amount of risk to their clients safety by throwing rogue tracks into their ski runs. Add chest beating loud mouths-"we'll do whatever we want and FU attitude" isn't helping either. I gather its a situation where respect brings respect. Hopefully we won't bring about any further closures on ourselves. JMO.

 

[Lund]

As a tenured operator and an associate member of Helicat, I can contribute what little understanding I have on the heliski/snowmobile issue. On average, 45% of client revenue goes to pay for the cost of operating the helicopter, so at $1000/day/person, $450/person is going to pay for the helicopter, then there is guides, administration, maybe food and lodging as well. If I had time to go back through my emails I could get an exact dollar figure for what heliskiing's and catskiing's annual economic output is in BC, however I seem to remember it being roughly $180 million + or -. I understand snowmobiling accounts for roughly $860 million of annual economic output in BC. Helicat, the BSCF and FLNRO all know these figures, economically snowmobiling smashes heliskiing. The director of helicat has been working with the snowmobile community to resolve some of the conflicts and present the province with a unified approach, it is not an evil organization out to destroy snowmobiling as their management understands that collectively, backcountry snowmobiling, heliskiing and catskiing is a billion dollar business in province and that is good for them. I think they also realize that its good for them to develop resolutions with the communities rather by legislation, HC members may see it differently.

So why is it that snowmobiling typically gets the crappy end of the stick? There certainly appears to be a bias against motorized sports with government, we are certainly seeing that with registration and land closures. Representation likely plays a fairly large role, ie: CMH has a full time government lobbyist on payroll, Helicat is run by a brilliant lawyer type that is extremely perceptive and communicates very well, as are the other industry associations - WTA, CWSSA, etc... the lesson I've learned is that dealing with government bureaucrats is best left to lawyers and professional lobbyists. The decision makers at FLNRO are extremely over worked, they don't get out much so their decisions are likely based on input rather real world experience, and snowmobiling ranks at the bottom of their list of priorities.

The amount of information gathering, consensus building and fact finding that Helicat performs gives them a lot of ammo to throw at the government.

I've also haven't heard any mention of Helicat petitioning for cariboo closures, perhaps some of their members may have but its never come up at their meetings, press releases or in conversation.

The consensus amongst Heliski operators is that they are alarmed by the unprecedented mobility of modern day snowmobiles, we are in a lot places that we previously weren't and they aren't comfortable with that. We are adding a tremendous amount of risk to their clients safety by throwing rogue tracks into their ski runs. Add chest beating loud mouths-"we'll do whatever we want and FU attitude" isn't helping either. I gather its a situation where respect brings respect. Hopefully we won't bring about any further closures on ourselves. JMO.

Great post and very true, i also operated a small tenure guiding business for a few year's and the biggest enemy sledder's have are not heliski operator's nor government. But sledder's them selves and some of the sport general attitude.
I do a fair amount of backcountry skiing rub shoulder's with many other skier's and there is a definite difference in attitude toward's the theme "its my constitutional right", so F'U get out of my way, F'U the caribou and give me another beer before i rip up this meadow.
Unfortunately self policing is not a strong point in many individual's, especially when they think no one is watching and feel they can get away with it....many do.

 

[snopro]

I agree a lot of us know we are the problem. Why as a group can we not do something about it? Anybody have any idea's? I sure don't have any. To may wild cards out there to control IMO.

 

[moyiesledhead]

I agree a lot of us know we are the problem. Why as a group can we not do something about it? Anybody have any idea's? I sure don't have any. To may wild cards out there to control IMO.

Biggest reason I stepped down as land use director for our club after 20 years. I'll argue with NGO's and government over Caribou closures till hell freezes over....but I'm not gonna argue with the snowmobilers I was trying to protect any more.