Poor Trail Grooming

[ICF]

Please let me start By saying I am not Whining or bi_ching. I as well as the couple other hundred people that ride the renshaw trail every week want to improve its condition. I have been riding for about 14 years now and was here when there were 3' mogules from top to bottom. I didnt like it then and dont like it now. I have been so upset with the condition of the trail that i have left for months and and even for some seasons.This was hard for me to do as The Renshaw range is my favorite out of all areas i have ridden. I have ridden pretty much for the most part all the major riding areas in the western region and have seen good trails and bad. I do understand what is involved in correctly building and maintaining a groomed trail system. Last weekend we we rode up on friday and saturday. Friday morning we wanted to be the first on the trail and we met the groomer on the trail at 3:30 in the morning on his way down. the trail up to that point had been groomed on the way up. being the 4th guy in the group was like being the 75th guy the week before. the trail was horrible, it got slightly better after passing the groomer but in respect for the trail we kept it cool and stayed to the side the best we could, I was amazed at how many bumps were still on the trail even after being groomed. In the parking lot that night I met up with the groomer as he was fueling to do his night run, I wanted him to know our concerns so I talked to him and told him about the bumps and that he should drop his cutters a couple more inches as the sled was just hovering the bumps, he said he would and someone else had said the same thing to him earlier. he also mentioned the warmer temps was also causing some of the issues which we do understand. On saturday night we met up with the groomer on our way down at about the 5k mark i got off my sled and walked beside the sled as it progressed down the trail, I noticed that the front blade seemed to be doing most of the work the first and second cutters on the groomer were not moving any snow at all!. I removed about a boot width of snow from the midle of the trail with my shovel for about 15' and it looked like 100 sleds had passed over it the mogules were that hight all of 12+". I do appriciate the work everyone in all of our snowmobile clubs does including the grooming company but as a paying customer i would like to see a better product. I am not trying to bi_ch at any body or point fingers all i want is a better trail. if that means droping the cutting edges of the groomer , or up grading to a better quality groomer with a good drag then lets look at that? What about the possibility of temporarly hiring another company to see if they can do a better job. We have all ridden many other good groomed trails so we know it can be done.
I dont have all the answers or as i am sure some reading this will say none of the answers, but when i am so sore and tired from the trail when I get to the riding area that I have trouble moving my sled around it becomes a chore and not the reason i ride. As well as the poor fellow at the north country having breakfast begging his buddy to go riding that day and his buddy said not even if he paid him $500 would he go back up that trail after what he had to ride down the night before.
Please take this message the right way, lets work together put our heads together and find a solution. If we can do that everyone will have a great trail to ride

 

[maxwell]

Please let me start By saying I am not Whining or bi_ching. I as well as the couple other hundred people that ride the renshaw trail every week want to improve its condition. I have been riding for about 14 years now and was here when there were 3' mogules from top to bottom. I didnt like it then and dont like it now. I have been so upset with the condition of the trail that i have left for months and and even for some seasons.This was hard for me to do as The Renshaw range is my favorite out of all areas i have ridden. I have ridden pretty much for the most part all the major riding areas in the western region and have seen good trails and bad. I do understand what is involved in correctly building and maintaining a groomed trail system. Last weekend we we rode up on friday and saturday. Friday morning we wanted to be the first on the trail and we met the groomer on the trail at 3:30 in the morning on his way down. the trail up to that point had been groomed on the way up. being the 4th guy in the group was like being the 75th guy the week before. the trail was horrible, it got slightly better after passing the groomer but in respect for the trail we kept it cool and stayed to the side the best we could, I was amazed at how many bumps were still on the trail even after being groomed. In the parking lot that night I met up with the groomer as he was fueling to do his night run, I wanted him to know our concerns so I talked to him and told him about the bumps and that he should drop his cutters a couple more inches as the sled was just hovering the bumps, he said he would and someone else had said the same thing to him earlier. he also mentioned the warmer temps was also causing some of the issues which we do understand. On saturday night we met up with the groomer on our way down at about the 5k mark i got off my sled and walked beside the sled as it progressed down the trail, I noticed that the front blade seemed to be doing most of the work the first and second cutters on the groomer were not moving any snow at all!. I removed about a boot width of snow from the midle of the trail with my shovel for about 15' and it looked like 100 sleds had passed over it the mogules were that hight all of 12+". I do appriciate the work everyone in all of our snowmobile clubs does including the grooming company but as a paying customer i would like to see a better product. I am not trying to bi_ch at any body or point fingers all i want is a better trail. if that means droping the cutting edges of the groomer , or up grading to a better quality groomer with a good drag then lets look at that? What about the possibility of temporarly hiring another company to see if they can do a better job. We have all ridden many other good groomed trails so we know it can be done.
I dont have all the answers or as i am sure some reading this will say none of the answers, but when i am so sore and tired from the trail when I get to the riding area that I have trouble moving my sled around it becomes a chore and not the reason i ride. As well as the poor fellow at the north country having breakfast begging his buddy to go riding that day and his buddy said not even if he paid him $500 would he go back up that trail after what he had to ride down the night before.
Please take this message the right way, lets work together put our heads together and find a solution. If we can do that everyone will have a great trail to ride

going to hear it from both sides of the story but i will agree there is an issue in all areas. i never understood why a cutting head tiller type groomer can not be used like at the skihills. cuts everything and churns it all into the same consistancy and lays down a perfectly smooth ribbon. even if it doesnt setup at least its all the same consistancy. i think these guys are doing the absolute best they can with the funds,manpower and equipment they have but with the increased rider numbers over the years and with no snow in edmonton the trails are taking a beating. something needs to be looked at in my opinion. granted what can you do with +5 and no cash? maybe there is no better way? how to the trails out east do it? i know they dont see the big sleds and switchbacks etc but they handle thousands of sleds per day. i used to beleive that if everyone was gentle on the throttle and whatnot the issue would dissapear. but after seing the results you have seen coming down the mountain right behind the groomer im not so sure that is 100% the issue. however i am not a groomer operator and inknow nothing compared to these guys. i know on a cold night and a fresh groom allan creek can handle 300 sleds up and down no issues. i say lets wait for the weather to smarten up and i think this issue will resolve itself.

keep up the good work guys. we can handle the bumps until the weather cooperates.

 

[maxwell]

http://wyotrails.state.wy.us/snow/GroomerGuidecomplete.pdf

good read

 

[snochuk]

going to hear it from both sides of the story but i will agree there is an issue in all areas. i never understood why a cutting head tiller type groomer can not be used like at the skihills. cuts everything and churns it all into the same consistancy and lays down a perfectly smooth ribbon. even if it doesnt setup at least its all the same consistancy. i think these guys are doing the absolute best they can with the funds,manpower and equipment they have but with the increased rider numbers over the years and with no snow in edmonton the trails are taking a beating. something needs to be looked at in my opinion. granted what can you do with +5 and no cash? maybe there is no better way? how to the trails out east do it? i know they dont see the big sleds and switchbacks etc but they handle thousands of sleds per day. i used to beleive that if everyone was gentle on the throttle and whatnot the issue would dissapear. but after seing the results you have seen coming down the mountain right behind the groomer im not so sure that is 100% the issue. however i am not a groomer operator and inknow nothing compared to these guys. i know on a cold night and a fresh groom allan creek can handle 300 sleds up and down no issues. i say lets wait for the weather to smarten up and i think this issue will resolve itself.

keep up the good work guys. we can handle the bumps until the weather cooperates.

. i never understood why a cutting head tiller type groomer can not be used like at the skihills..........A change in approach when time after time the present process has been proven useless. Hmmmm.........thinking outside the box.......very good Maxwell..........apparently a very small investment in the overall groomer cost also.

 

[mphfreak]

I completely agree with ICF and Maxwell. Over the holidays we rode Lucille twice. Took the entire family, and before we got to the cabin there were parts of our group ready to turn around. Not a very pleasant vacation. I rode Renshaw for one day. It was horrific!

I hope the trails get better. Ive ridden Revelstoke alot and there trails have never, ever, ever ever been that bad.

Jason

 

[flabbajabba]

I rode Renshaw Jan 12 it was right after the weather finally stayed below Zero. Trail was smoother than the hwy.

I was kind of pissed off I put new shocks on my sled and could test them at all

 

[cadman22]

Just came back from riding renshaw today and the trail is awesome, it was just like a hwy. The groomers are doing a great job.

 

[taz3038]

Trail was great how was the snow uptop?

 

[taz3038]

So how was the snow up top today? Thinkin about headin that way in the am

 

[gm3d]

The weather is warming up again. Gonna be whinning about the trails again!!!!!

 

[b_doornenbal]

"" Ive ridden Revelstoke alot and there trails have never, ever, ever ever been that bad""

Then go ride in Revy with all of the European's and leave the snow in McBride for the rest of us!!

 

[Ministik Man]

One of the biggest issues is "Removing the RESIDUAL bump" off the trail

This can only be done with SPECIAL trail grooming drags, IE a 16' or 18' long Mogal Master Drag with 6 to 11 cutter blades and a proper PACKING PAN.

Old style drags just cannot cut / blend snow in the basket / lay down smooth trail / heavy packing pan, to keep up with the number of sleds on the trails today.

If you read the Groomers Manual you will read that the front cutter blade must be cut down to the bottom of the bump - not just skimming the surface of the bump and filling in the holes.

The groomer will drop in speed down to 8-10km per hour and uses twice the diesel to properly CUT OUT the mogal, blend the snow and replace the snow with the packer pan.

Also if the terrain/trail varies the operator must constantly be adjusting the front cutter blades to the correct depth - that alone is a tiresome job to monitor while driving the groomer.

Keep in mind the best grooming temperature is -10 and lower and has 10 to 15 hours to set up before a sled rides on it. (Clear frosty night is the best)

A properly set up trail, ( snow + Temperature + amount of snow blending in the basket = good groom) you will not leave a boot print.

If you walk on it and it crushes under your foot leaving a boot impression the trail did not set up at all and will go back to moguls fast.



Our trails whoop up fast from deep lug tracks. As the track pivots up and down in the whoop the large lugs scoop out the whoop throwing the snow over the back side of the whoop, thus making it grow..
Down east they all ride .5 lug tracks and a trail can handle 400 sleds out west the large lugs, the trails can only handle 100 sleds before whooping up. (again dependent on if the whoop was completely removed to the bottom of the whoop and re-laid by the groomer drag. which is slow, hard work cost more for diesel).

McBride does have one of the Best GROOMER and Mogul Master Drags in the industry. Bombardier BR350 (350 horse Power) with a Mogul Master Drag.
It might be worth it to experiment on a cold -10 degree night to lightly groom up the trail BUT deep grooming downhill (Cheaper to power groom deep while grooming downhill - to adjust the drags front cutter blades and completely remove the whole whoop and make sure the drag basket is full to the top without spilling over – It also helps when at the top of the mountain at the cabin to back into a snow drift and fill the Packer Pan with snow for added weight to help pack the snow rolling under the packer pan which will become the trail surface.
Grooming is damn hard work, running the groomer, adjusting the drag cutter blades, watching where you are going – All in the DARK at NIGHT.

Both McBride and Valemount have the perfect Groomer machines to do the job (with the exception of Milage drag – that old fellow needs to be retired and new style mogul master drag used there as the trail is not much different in front of or behind that drag – the tractor BR400+ (240HP tractor is great) it is just the drag needs upgrading.
It might be worth a ride along with the McBride groomer crew and the Valemount groomer crew as to what is working and what is not working – which ultimately leads to a longer lasting trail before the whoops return

Just some suggestions – Keep up the hard work – no one likes to work at night alone….

 

[shoppingcart111]

Yes the weather plays a huge part in setting the trails, but i think it stems from morons racing the trails like it was a 1/4 mile strip. If everyone used their heads and didnt slap the flipper to the bars from the ticket booth and be easy on the corners etc, then the whoops wouldnt develop in the first place, or they would be alot smaller!

 

[maxwell]

after riding a trail allan creek trail for 4 days in a row on a single groom at -20 to -30 it handled 150+ sleds and not even a bump on it. i learned alot from that. but who wants to sled when its that cold LOL

 

[pfi572]

As Ministik Man has stated (One of the biggest issues is "Removing the RESIDUAL bump" off the trail) You have to use the blade on the front of the BR 350 and cut the humps right out and then let the groomer behind do the work.
It is a real job running the dozer smoothly with a 8 way and also running the mogul master behind keeping it full but not to full . I have ran alot of heavy equipment and can run anything well and this keeps you busy.
Anyone that thinks a good operator running one of these machines isn't tired after 11 hrs should give it a whirl for 30 mins and see what it is like.
Temp. is one of the biggest and most important things as stated.
Thanks to all you operators out there that take this on, instead of riding your machines!!!!!!!!!!!

THANK YOU

 

[Dale Franklin]

Does anyone remember what the trails were like before they were groomed at all? For those who forgot or never rode an ungroomed trail, the mogals started at the parking lot 8" to 1' deep. As you climbed in elevation they got even deeper 2-2.5'+,all 30k 3 feet apart.Groomer Operators do the best they can with the equipment they have,the snow they have to work with,temps and Lord help them if it rains! Remember that the bumps are caused by us (sledders) not the Groomer.Even when Mother Nature doesn't cooperate with the grooming the trail is still way smoother then before on ungroomed trails. Guys keep up the good work ,I know it is not an easy job.

Thankyou
Dale