Paradise/Holy Grail Threatened

[glacier mt lodge]

Submitted my disapproval... haven't ridden there personally but I here amazing things and want to get there a few times this winter...

Thanks for the heads up on this issue!

Thanks for submitting. This area is amazing. It is one of the biggest areas we have found.

 

[heyjude]

I just sent in my comments AGAINST and out-of-town operation getting tenure.

We saw her pompous rant against sledders in the local newspaper and tried to find information on her operation. We could find nothing. Her business was not a registered tour operation at the time and she had no tenure anywhere. At the time we wrote her off as a nutcase. Some of her comments clearly showed that she was not educated about our sport.

Obviously she had an agenda. Won't work. She alienated all the locals and sledders with her comments. That will be her downfall in the end.

 

[glacier mt lodge]

I just sent in my comments AGAINST and out-of-town operation getting tenure.

We saw her pompous rant against sledders in the local newspaper and tried to find information on her operation. We could find nothing. Her business was not a registered tour operation at the time and she had no tenure anywhere. At the time we wrote her off as a nutcase. Some of her comments clearly showed that she was not educated about our sport.

Obviously she had an agenda. Won't work. She alienated all the locals and sledders with her comments. That will be her downfall in the end.

We all completely agree. Especially when we know her so called buisness will not support us locally.

 

[scotts]

I just sent my comment as well and plead with every one to do the same. This is one of the most increible riding areas in the entire north thompson.

Please people keep your comments polite, Comments with offensive language are ignored and do us no service.

 

[barefooter]

Posted. Hope it helps. Is there a link to her "rant" or to her application on total?

 

[Lococoin]

Sent in my 2 cents.

 

[scotts]

Just looked over dana foster,s letter to the editor in the valley sentinel dated april 24 2008. What was the purpose behind the two paragraph avalanche event, was she implying that snowmobilers shoud not be in the area and yet it would be fine for skiers as they never trigger avalanches which can result in theirn own fatality?
Foster Mentions sighting caribou tracks on one occasion, and quotes out dated studies on caribou displacement due to snowmobiles. I have seen tracks and animals countless times in areas such as climina and allen creek,two very high snowmobile traffic areas and yet every year the caribou are still there.
Foster makes the assumption that 97% of motorized users to the north blue river area are albertans who contribute little by way of licence or permit fees. Where in reality studies have shown millions in economic benefit gained to the north thompson area due to winter snowmobile tourism.
Foster,s comments appear to be based on her own biased observations and have little basis in fact.
I challenge ms. Foster to step down off her high horse and admit her concern for the beautiful north blue lies primarly in her business endevours and the exclusion of others from this area.
I say to the dana fosters of the world if you want to trumpet the caribou as a cause to limit access to the north blue. then dont exempt your own activities and limit all others. Champion the cause to close the area to all, be it snowmobiler,heliskier, hiker. Just keep in mind Foster that unlike you, us 97% albertans are there to enjoy the splendor of the north blue not to make a buck.
Scott Sherwood ...a 97% albertan

 

[Tunderin' RT]

Done sent my disapproval, hope someone pays attention.

 

[aircanam]

My 2 cents are in.

 

[scotts]

Seems that my hypocrite post was to political for the cute and fuzzys at snow and mud so here is snowy mountain wbsite and you all can figure out how they take supplies into the monashee chalet,
hint it starts with s and rhymes with snowmobile.


Snowy Mountain Alpine Tours - Home

 

[BLUE JEWEL]

Just looked over dana foster,s letter to the editor in the valley sentinel dated april 24 2008. What was the purpose behind the two paragraph avalanche event, was she implying that snowmobilers shoud not be in the area and yet it would be fine for skiers as they never trigger avalanches which can result in theirn own fatality?
Foster Mentions sighting caribou tracks on one occasion, and quotes out dated studies on caribou displacement due to snowmobiles. I have seen tracks and animals countless times in areas such as climina and allen creek,two very high snowmobile traffic areas and yet every year the caribou are still there.
Foster makes the assumption that 97% of motorized users to the north blue river area are albertans who contribute little by way of licence or permit fees. Where in reality studies have shown millions in economic benefit gained to the north thompson area due to winter snowmobile tourism.
Foster,s comments appear to be based on her own biased observations and have little basis in fact.
I challenge ms. Foster to step down off her high horse and admit her concern for the beautiful north blue lies primarly in her business endevours and the exclusion of others from this area.
I say to the dana fosters of the world if you want to trumpet the caribou as a cause to limit access to the north blue. then dont exempt your own activities and limit all others. Champion the cause to close the area to all, be it snowmobiler,heliskier, hiker. Just keep in mind Foster that unlike you, us 97% albertans are there to enjoy the splendor of the north blue not to make a buck.
Scott Sherwood ...a 97% albertan

Ok....I just phoned the " Caretaker " of the Monashee Chalet and He is VERY bewildered...

I have passed on Dana Foster Web site to the " Caretaker " and He will review that and the Newspaper Article from April / 08 .

He is " Blowen " away with what I have gave Him....

He will be getting back to Me within 48 Hours...

I will Post His reply...

 

[scotts]

In case anyone else is interested the report that Foster-ludwig refers to is " toward a mountain caribou management strategy for British Columbia- habitat requirements and sub-populations status (WR90) authorer by K. Simpson E. Terry and D. Hamilton.
puplished november 1997.
ISBN 0-7726-3437-8

Iam ordering a copy, boy this has got me worked up

 

[brknsld]

With all due respect to the snowmobile industry. The Snowy Mountain Alpine Tours applicant has life long roots in the valley, and has spent most of her working life in the North Thompson doing forestry work. Her grandmother lived in Blue River and Avola through the late 60's to early 80's. She worked for Slocan forest Products for several years and later operated her own consulting business all in the Clearwater Forest District which extends to Adolph Creek and Clemina Creek. This person has been skiing in the North Blue drainage for 13 years. Dana has also participated in every single land use plan for this area and has been a proponent of commercial non-motorized recreation and a strong supporter of public access for all.

Dana supported the VARDA proposal during the SRMP process and the establishment of these managed snowmobile areas and personally wrote letters supporting the snowmobile industry to the government. She supported the sledder's completely to gain a better foothold.

She assisted the owner of Snow Farmers in training for his Level II CAA courses and has hired Snow Farmers in the past for services. She has ridden all of the sledding areas managed by VARDA and has explored every single valley between Valemount and Blue River both summer and winter.

She is a member of the BC Snowmobile Federation and participates in the Trophy Mtn.Ride, she loves riding.

Snowy Mountain Alpine Tours will be a year round business and has proposed to build three separate hiking trails with public campgrounds for everyone including horse back riders. They will be hiring six guides, three cooks, cat drivers, construction workers, road builders, marketing services, food supplies and related services, trail crew and maintenance staff etc.... These are tax dollars that fund the TNRD which supports all services for BR.

The sky is not falling and snowmobilers will have access to areas of the North Blue. The Holy Grail terrain is all class 3/4 avy terrain and is not a good general riding area. Paradise can only be accessed via a major avy path. It is 32km of sledding to reach the Holy Grail, all of which travels through some level of wildlife habitat. Yes, there are caribou there and yes all activities have an impact but all the research points to snowmobiles as having the highest threat of displacement with heli's a close second. All of the science proves that non-motorized recreation has the lowest threat of displacement. There needs to be all industries that are involved as this strengthens communities and provides better economic stability. The Blue River snowmobile industry is young and just developing, it's important but so are other users. It's not about who can get everything for themselves it's about sharing and mutual respect for others who have different values and make different choices. The government won't touch this area as far as a VARDA style management agreement due to the extreme liability for additional avalanche deaths. There were 54 in North America so far this year with over half being snowmobilers, yet not one single death under a guided ski tour heli or otherwise. Ron's death last year was completely preventable, I have read two first hand accounts of this accident. They spent two and a half hours climbing the "Paradise" avalanche path with over 60 cm's of unconsolidated snow over a persistent weak layer. This was not a good choice of terrain given the conditions of the day. The small roll that Ron triggered onto himself would never be skied as it is a feature that abrubtly stops on the flats. It doesn't go anywhere, however it's a terrain feature that is a classic surface hoar farm and gets' loaded from the prevailing wind. This is a "classic" case of bad terrain choice. Snowmobilers can't hear the subtle feed back from weak layers collapsing under them. This is a key sign of instability, they need to actually test and trigger smaller slopes to gather information about possible weak layers or gliding layers. Sometimes they can't out run there test slopes.

The owners of Snowy Mountain Alpine Tours has over 35 years experience in the avalanche patch and are both CAA Level II forecasters and certified ACMG guides. They will have the ability to groom the North Blue as smooth as a babies bum for sledders. This can be a win win with seasonal opening for sledders, a strong year round economy and a change to the location of the current Section 58's to better provide good general riding areas for all sledders. Does Blue River want to give the impression that new investment is not welcome and that they only serve one kind of backcountry user? This would not be healthy. Last year Dana spent three nights at Glacier Mtn.Lodge with four people moose hunting. She has spent thousands of dollars filling up her forestry truck with fuel, buying food, beer and supplies at all of the local stores and she has been doing this since 1990.

This is about diversification and respect for each other as brothers and sisters. It's not about winning a fight against each other as some would argue. There are major WCB rules coming down the pipe for the sled industry who will be required to hire avalanche management planners who have 10-15 years experience with CAA Level II qualifications. The sled industry does not possess very many people who can fit these mandatory qualifications. Snowy Mountain Alpine Tours can provide training and risk management expertise to strengthen the snowmobile community and make it safer for everyone.

Please get the truth and facts and don't condemn people who have championed the very sport and industry you participate in. Lets' look at the common ground and everyone needs to make compromises, that's what makes society work. For the record the average price of a guided ski touring week is $2000.00 per person. SMAT will have spaces for 20 people year round and additional public users. They will also offer special training programs for locals and travel local specials.

With all the peace and love to you...
brknsld

 

[lexy]

Hi everyone.

Please make sure you respond to this by Sept 25 2008
As this is when it closes. Even if you don't ride here please respond so you will have an awsome area to come to when you do venture here.
It is very important to stand up to these kind of exclusive tenures in all of BC.

 

[Mongrol]

I just posted my objection to this proposal, but feel compelled to say this. We are being served notice everyday about how the non riding public and special interest groups see our activities (sledding and quading) in a negative light.

Its time for all of us to pull in our horns a bit and stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
We all know and sometimes ride with a JERK. Really guys condoning or accepting this type of behaviour HAS TO STOP or we'll all be walking or X country skiing.

I cringe when I read a post bragging about a stupid act or saying "i'll do it if I want". We aren't the only ones that read these forums, our critics do also.

One post in this thread refers to the applicant as a "Biootch". We can expect our critics to point stuff like this out, so can we deal with these sensitive subjects in a manner that will allow us to be taken seriously as a group?

We all have a common desire keep our riding areas open, shared (OK) but not exclusive to any business or recreation.

 

[scotts]

Welcome brknsld.

Thankyou for a well written defence of Mrs. Fosters position even though it seems in direct contrast to her own words written in the Valley Sentinal,April 24.
Mrs Fosters involment in land use discussions and her support of VARDA due little to ease my fears of her willingness to accomadate motorized users in and around the proposed tenure. The SMRP process is viewed by many,myself included, as a way to mearly keep the sledders confined to restricted ares and banned from all others.

I Feel it is of very poor taste of you to comment on the death of an avid outdoorsman,husband and father to help further your cause. AS well your statistics on avalalanch fatality's are incorrect. Although the training and experience of backcountry guides cannot be argued as good backcountry practice you disregaurd instances such as the slide on jan 20 on the durrand glacier east of the Rogers pass where seven people under the direction of expericened guides lost their lives. If you care to closley examine the history of avalalanche deaths some of the most tragic have occured to partys under the care of experienced mountain guides,many due to overconfidence and the urge to give the paying customer the ultimate thrill adventure.

I wonder how the north blue will be grommed to that baby bottoms smoothness without the use of mechanical means,in direct contrast to fosters views on grooming done currently by the blue river snowmobile interests.
You contradict yourself by telling us the snowmobiler will have access to the holygrail and yet mention fosters intention to move riding to current section 58's wich in your opinion are "better general riding areas" and access only during seasonal openings, A nice way of saying "at the end of the season when your paying customers have gone home" . This strikes me as being a win lose situation to me.
This is not about diversification or respect, this is about the exclusion of many for the profit and interests of a few please dont sugarcoat it otherwise as i would rather read Fosters comments written in the valley sentinal at least those are her true feelings on the subject.

With peace and love to you and yours brknsld but truth also

 

[Summiteer]

It seems to me that this has started out much the same as the BRC (Big Red Cat) discussion last year. No communication from one side to the other. Once the opposing sides sat down and discussed the situation, a resolution that was palatable to both sides was reached. Communication is the key here, for both sides, talk to each other, THEN talk to us.

 

[Caper11]

I picked up the new snow tech mag and there is a artical about the closures in valmount and blue river areas, this is what it reads,
"A (BC) Forests Practices Board investigation into a public complaint about the use of leglislation to close a number of areas to snowmobling has determined that it was reasonable to use the Forest and Range Practices Act to creat the closures.
The Board received a public complaint after the Ministry of toursim, Sport and the Arts closed areas to snowmoblie recreation in the early 2007, using section 58 of FRPA.
The closures are part of the implementation of the Valemount to Blue river Sustainable Resource Management Plan (SRMP), and were put in place to resolve conflicts largely between snowmobilers and the heli-skiing industry, but other activities such as backcountry skiiing and dog sledding are also affected. the closures are also scheduled to be reviewed in 2010, which will provide another opportunity for members of the public to have their concerns heard.
Saftey concers and the quality of experience for heli-skiing clients are the main reasons for the closures".
What about the quality of experience for the displaced snowmobilers?
Resource: North Thompson times Printed in the Sept 2008 Snow Tech Mag.

 

[BDF#900]

Done! Will get the rest of the tribe on it.

 

[deep blue]

in response to an earlier post by brknsld:

Is it just me, our do I seem to smell a familiar hint of arrogance? This type of elitist attitude never ceases to amaze me. It seems to be the guiding industries means of protectionism. I suppose that it gets difficult to explain to their clients how we spent $40 in fuel to get to the same spot as they charged their clients thousands to get to.

Do only ski guides and their clients have any business being in the backcountry? They have done a good job of convincing the general public and their clients of the same. What about those users with experience and brains, should we be excluded as well? Not everybody needs/wants a guide.

Don't get me wrong. The guides have great knowledge and play a vital role. I have hired guides many times in the past. However they are NOT the only ones that deserve access.

There is an inherent risk in being in the backcountry for all users. We all know that. The media has gone to the extent of scarring the public into thinking that if they get out of their vehicle they will instantly be gobbled up by an avalanche. I have friends that will never go into the backcountry in their lives because of this propaganda. I know that they would love it, and it could possibly change their lives as it has mine. This elitist attitude has only perpetuated this fear.

I have hiked glaciers to go snowboarding, and I also use sled access. There is no mention of the length of time that someone is in a slide path during an approach, and don't tell me that it is completely avoidable. How do you intend to get your own skiers past the mentioned slide paths of the grail? I can get to a peak with my sled in a fraction of the time that it takes me to hike/skin up. I believe that it limits my time in the danger zone, especially when there are large swings in temperature through out the day. I also think that clients can get a false sense of security with their guides, thus eliminating their own development and decision making. No one can be 100% sure of a slopes stability.

I am not saying that all sledders make wise decisions. I have seen more than my share of stupid acts by sledders. This is something we need to work on as a community. But make no mistake, I have also seen equal the amount of stupid stuff being done by skiers, some resulting in death. One only has to take a visit to a major ski resort to witness this.

Is there things that can be learned from each other? Without a doubt. The backcountry sledding community definitely has some catching up to do. The ski industry has been around a lot longer. They have developed there own structure. And they are well versed in the art of lobbying.

I also believe that the best teacher is experience. And the more experience/time in the backcountry people can obtain will only lead to wiser decision making by all. We all can learn more. Once you start thinking you know it all is when you are really in danger.

I guess one point that is being overlooked in all of this is that you are trying to obtain a tenure in an existing tenure of MWHS. And we have already witnessed the lengths they will go to protect their own interests. This maybe your biggest obstacle in all of this.