p-22

[Rhodesie]

i have been commenting on polaris' facebook posts about the issues and risks with the new clutch and i actually received a message about my comments asking for my phone number.
thinking it was just smoke and mirrors i actually received a call yesterday to discuss these issues. it was about a 20 min call. i sent matts pics of his exploded clutch and we talked about the clutches departing also.
sometimes i guess there are people watching. hopefully something changes.

 

[skid]

Was it Chris Brandt?

 

[Teth-Air]

Was it an injury lawyer?

 

[rightsideup]

Let's hope they come up with a fix and retrofit to 2023s

 

[Teth-Air]

Let's hope they come up with a fix and retrofit to 2023s

I heard that the bolt is still causing many issues. The new bolt is still stretching and when it gets loose the other problems start happening. Polaris also has not been selling any of the new bolts but just supplying them for warranty. Maybe re-designing again for 2024?? Time will tell.

 

[snopro]

Why the P22? The previous clutch was kind of renowned as the best all around clutch for durability and heat dissapation in the industry. Now they have grief. Did they over think reinventing the wheel so to speak?

 

[JMCX]

You can't join the two halves of the clutch with a spliine. Doo tried that with the original TRA and they came loose as well.

The P85 isn't all that. They wear out sooner than they should. The Cat Team has improved design over the P85. They just made it out of substandard material.

I put a picture of my brand new 2015 Poo secondary on a forum because it clearly had balance issues. I got a PM from a mystery person saying there would be a replacement at the dealership for me. The manufacturers watch the forums.

 

[jhurkot]

The p22 will never be solved. They tried to make it serviceable at the expense of reliability. This is an engineering mistake that can't be fixed. What they should have done was take the p85 design and just beef up the weakest shittiest parts of it (rollers and weight bushings mainly). "Oh well the p22 lasts forever on a turbo RZR with 180hp". Okay cool story but it obviously doesn't last very long on a snowmobile.

 

[ABMax24]

The p22 will never be solved. They tried to make it serviceable at the expense of reliability. This is an engineering mistake that can't be fixed. What they should have done was take the p85 design and just beef up the weakest shittiest parts of it (rollers and weight bushings mainly). "Oh well the p22 lasts forever on a turbo RZR with 180hp". Okay cool story but it obviously doesn't last very long on a snowmobile.

Difference is in the rotational inertia and crankshaft layout. The RZR has a heavier flywheel and a much heavier crank. What did Polaris do to the 9R? Lighten the living crap out of the flywheel and crank, 145 grams out of the crank and 170 grams out of the flywheel compared to the 850 by Polaris numbers.

Polaris needs to put an accelerometer on the crank and measure rotational inertia. I can guarantee you the acceleration will be far beyond what the P22 or P85 was designed to handle. Twice per rotation the crank experiences rapid acceleration and deceleration as the pistons change direction in the cylinder bore.

I bet if you put an 850 crank and flywheel in a 9R the clutch would last at twice as long, just due to the increase in mass.

Back to the RZR Turbo. The crank throws are offset 270 degrees (Crossplane), which nearly balances out rotational acceleration from the pistons as one is starting movement as the other is stopping, it also creates a rocking couple but this is fixed with a balance shaft. 2 stroke sled engines are 180 degrees apart (Flatplane), which is the worst possible layout for rotational acceleration as the pistons stop and start at the exact same time. Remove rotational mass and you do nothing but worsen this.

While the P22 may be a pile of junk, it's issues are certainly exacerbated by the jarring rotational acceleration placed on them by the new generation of ultra lightweight engines. Going back to triples from twins would help the issues the P22 is seeing as well.

 

[MP Kid]

(Going back to triples from twins would help the issues the P22 is seeing as well.

Just imagine….. a modern day fuel injection triple turbo…..

 

[lilduke]

I dont think 50lbs heavier and a foot wider is the solution lol

 

[MP Kid]

I dont think 50lbs heavier and a foot wider is the solution lol

Majority of sleds are rode east of the mountains….

Its not all about you duke!

(And it was a bit of joke as well, manufacturers are only interested in make margin…)

 

[lilduke]

Majority of sleds are rode east of the mountains….

Its not all about you duke!

(And it was a bit of joke as well, manufacturers are only interested in make margin…)

Im not the only one that rides the mountains, and i dont give a chit about guys out east.

Plus it was abmax that brought it up, so relax lol

 

[tmo1620]

Majority of sleds are rode east of the mountains….

Its not all about you duke!

(And it was a bit of joke as well, manufacturers are only interested in make margin…)

People sled outside the mountains???? Boring


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[maxwell]

Difference is in the rotational inertia and crankshaft layout. The RZR has a heavier flywheel and a much heavier crank. What did Polaris do to the 9R? Lighten the living crap out of the flywheel and crank, 145 grams out of the crank and 170 grams out of the flywheel compared to the 850 by Polaris numbers.

Polaris needs to put an accelerometer on the crank and measure rotational inertia. I can guarantee you the acceleration will be far beyond what the P22 or P85 was designed to handle. Twice per rotation the crank experiences rapid acceleration and deceleration as the pistons change direction in the cylinder bore.

I bet if you put an 850 crank and flywheel in a 9R the clutch would last at twice as long, just due to the increase in mass.

Back to the RZR Turbo. The crank throws are offset 270 degrees (Crossplane), which nearly balances out rotational acceleration from the pistons as one is starting movement as the other is stopping, it also creates a rocking couple but this is fixed with a balance shaft. 2 stroke sled engines are 180 degrees apart (Flatplane), which is the worst possible layout for rotational acceleration as the pistons stop and start at the exact same time. Remove rotational mass and you do nothing but worsen this.

While the P22 may be a pile of junk, it's issues are certainly exacerbated by the jarring rotational acceleration placed on them by the new generation of ultra lightweight engines. Going back to triples from twins would help the issues the P22 is seeing as well.

I know Polaris engineering is ran out of a rusted out seacan in China but they are still engineers. I would imagine they considered all of these things


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[ABMax24]

I know Polaris engineering is ran out of a rusted out seacan in China but they are still engineers. I would imagine they considered all of these things


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Mostly right, pretty sure it's a rusted out seacan behind a K-Mart in Medina Minnesota.

But you're probably right, they obviously thought of everything. That's why the clutches explode or are completely shot by 1,000km. All the good clutches do that. Either they are incompetent and didn't think of it, or did and are lazy/cheap and did nothing about it.

For a $30k sled you'd think you'd get a cnc machined titanium clutch, not some chitty cast aluminum piece.

 

[jhurkot]

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[adamg]

"She gone!"

 

[Chrisco]

I dont think 50lbs heavier and a foot wider is the solution lol

Yes it is

 

[lilduke]

Yes it is

Looks cool. But think id rather ride a new freeride personally though.